Quid est Veritas?

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In modern Psychiatry, there is a concept called a Religious delusion or Religious Ideation.
This is when someone reports hearing voices or being called by God and is seen as a part of the presentation of mental illness.

However, it can be seen as any religious experience that impacts normal functioning.

Now I have worked in a Psychiatric Hospital before and have always had trouble with this concept. Often it is easy to see someone is insane, other times it is far harder.
We once saw two brothers who came in with a shared delusion: One said he was Jesus and the other agreed that his brother was. They were floridly Psychotic and clearly not functional.
Another time we had a Bipolar gentleman who claimed he felt God had called upon him to heal the sick and spread Love. He had proceeded to leave his job, explain the situation to his wife and left to do ministry to the downtrodden. Sufficed to say, he did appear a bit manic (very elated) and was brought in by his wife. My superiors then drugged him up and involuntarily admitted him. The thing is, this man was reasonable and I could feel he really loved his fellow man. I would think that if someone was recently called by God, they would very much have presented in this elevated mood that he showed.
The only reason he became a mental patient is because what he did was out of the ordinary, but Jesus told the wealthy man to sell all he had and Follow Him or Peter to leave his nets.
I really felt sorry for the man and it made me much more wary of Psychiatry in general (part of the reason I no longer work in it).

The medicalisation of religious experience is a very dangerous path to trod and I fear that in future any expression of religion may be tarred by the brush of mental illness.

For the problem is that Jesus or many of the great saints, can easily be written off as madmen when they are in fact the opposite, far more sane than the rest of us.

Perhaps the insane are having real religious experiences, they are just unable to process them and the accounts we receive are merely garbled in the process. I can easily see God reaching out more directly to them, as He comes for the sick and the sinner.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
 

Resha Caner

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When someone in my family was having serious problems, we took the person to a Christian psychiatrist - someone who wouldn't dismiss talk of demons as a completely internal problem.

My experience has been that people will talk about God, angels, and demons in mystical ways in a church, but if someone says, "Yeah, I've actually seen one," the room gets very quiet, then, after an awkward silence, if it's not ignored someone will try to explain the comment away.

No doubt someone who says they have seen a demon has problems and needs professional help. No doubt the storybook versions of demons convey a lot of misunderstanding. But mental illness is not restricted to those who were abused by a person. In those other cases, to assume the illness has a solely internal cause (and therefore a solely internal solution) is, IMO, a huge mistake, but that seems to be the approach of secular psychology. I've seen too much to think that is going to work.
 
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ValleyGal

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I am surprised that you worked in the psychiatric field and yet still use the word "insane." That is not the terminology people in the field will use anymore, and haven't for a lot of years.

I know someone who was "prodromal" who had also admitted to seeing "dark shadows" that felt like demons. I believe they could be demons, given his heritage. But we talked about what that meant when it comes to his psychopathology. In fact, they put him on an antipsychotic, but it had an opposite effect on him, suggesting that he did not need it to start with. They took him off, and put him on anxiolytics instead, and that seemed to help a little more. He never did have a psychotic episode; a prodromal experience was enough! But even today, years later, he still believes they were demons. I do too - but that's because I know this person very well.

There are a lot of things that can cross over with psychiatry, psychology and religion. Believing you are Jesus is obviously delusional. But there are those who have religious scrupulosity. I know of one whose OCD had to do with obsessing about sin and compulsing with cleansing rituals after masturbating. Some who have schizophrenia believe they hear demons, other believe they hear God.... and yet many Christians believe in God and believe we hear him.

There is the "religious" or "spiritual" centre in the brain that lights up like the 4th of July when people pray, meditate or engage in religious rituals. For those who have a religious aspect to their mental illness, it is likely that the religious centre of the brain is misfiring, over-or-under active, or has some other issue that manifests as a religious mental illness. Even the religious centre of the brain can get sick. The important thing is to keep the person real, to confront those kinds of delusions or misconceptions with what the Bible (or whatever religion is manifesting) says on the matter, as part of therapy. The therapeutic approach would have to include finding out what religion the person believes in, researching it, and maybe finding a therapist of the same religion who is able and qualified to work with the patient.

A lot of Christians do not believe a person can get sick from the neck up, and there is a lot of stigma about mental illness, let alone mental illness that includes religiosity, it would be a challenge to find qualified Christians to deal with such issues. But they do exist, and the church as a whole needs more qualified workers who are able to help combat the stigma in Christian circles.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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In South Africa, Psychiatry has opted for the term Involuntary or Assisted Mental Health Care Users for psychotic patients. This is too wordy and lengthy term in my opinion and for laymen, I think there are few terms more neutral than insane. It is difficult to use any term for this at all that doesn't have some stigma.

I wasn't even thinking of demons in my original post, but this is of course another problem with the field. How can one differentiate organic or psychologic pathology from demonic interference? Not that Psychiatry acknowledges demons at all, so it would never even consider this problem.

There is the idea of 'cultural phenomena' such as Pentecostals speaking in tongues not being abnormal, but considered psychotic in someone else. This is often used to explain religious phenomena, but I really do not think it does the spiritual aspects justice.

I was thinking more about the dangers of seeing religiousity as a facet of mental illness itself, which disturbs me somewhat, but has some validity as VallryGal points out.
 
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Resha Caner

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I was thinking more about the dangers of seeing religiousity as a facet of mental illness itself, which disturbs me somewhat, but has some validity as VallryGal points out.

Yes, I caught that gist in your OP. Sorry if I steered the thread toward demons. Amateurs at CF constantly imply that religious experience is just an internal mental phenomena, or, if external, something induced by drugs or the like. It's not surprising that secular psychologists would think the same thing. You'll not change their minds through a professional debate, however. What they need to convince them is the Gospel, just like everyone else.
 
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Resha Caner

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A lot of Christians do not believe a person can get sick from the neck up, and there is a lot of stigma about mental illness, let alone mental illness that includes religiosity, it would be a challenge to find qualified Christians to deal with such issues. But they do exist, and the church as a whole needs more qualified workers who are able to help combat the stigma in Christian circles.

Agreed, and not only that but Christians who can provide healing that doesn't dismiss the existence of spirits.
 
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ValleyGal

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Teasing apart "real" religious experiences from those resulting from organic mental illness is very, very challenging, and likely can only be really teased apart using diagnostics like the fMRI. Even then, it would be challenging as they would need one where the patient is praying or engaging in mental religious practice, and comparing it with one where the patient is not engaging in religious mental activity. I was fortunate in that I knew the person who was prodromal, and even then I had a hard time figuring out what was and was not normal. Part of recovery was to simply treat the disorder and whatever religious aspects remained after treating the disorder, were likely "real" religious experiences. For example, there is no longer the obsession over sin guilt, and there is no compulsive cleansing rituals as a result, but there is still a sense of guilt where repentance is sufficient, believing that God's grace is sufficient for covering all our sin. So... it takes a lot of very sensitive work when treating psychiatric patients who have a religious factor.

I'm sorry you left the field. It is a fascinating field, and one where more Christians are needed to help the church to understand mental illness.
 
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NOTWHATIWAS

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Not a Psychiatrist-not an expert-just someone who was diagnosed w/ mental illness 30 years ago. I've been to a lot of doctors, taken a lot of different medications(too many to count),spent several short stays in what I have come to lovingly refer to as "The Basket Weaving Academy". Made several suicide attempts.(Obviously, none successful,Praise God!) Last attempt, I woke up to find a Christian relative standing over me and praying. I gave my life to Christ. I've been in a loving church family who has been praying for me for over a year. I have gone off half my med and am able to be fully engaged in fellowship w/others for the first time in several years. God puts skill and compassion in the hearts and minds of doctors in order that they may take care of people like me.There is also so much power in prayer. I never forget who the "Ultimate Physician" has been where my healing is concerned. The treatment I prescribe, not as a medical professional, but as one who has been through a lot and is still here to talk about it, is this-Jesus,Fellowship,Prayer,Doctors,Healing-in that order.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Teasing apart "real" religious experiences from those resulting from organic mental illness is very, very challenging, and likely can only be really teased apart using diagnostics like the fMRI. Even then, it would be challenging as they would need one where the patient is praying or engaging in mental religious practice, and comparing it with one where the patient is not engaging in religious mental activity. I was fortunate in that I knew the person who was prodromal, and even then I had a hard time figuring out what was and was not normal. Part of recovery was to simply treat the disorder and whatever religious aspects remained after treating the disorder, were likely "real" religious experiences. For example, there is no longer the obsession over sin guilt, and there is no compulsive cleansing rituals as a result, but there is still a sense of guilt where repentance is sufficient, believing that God's grace is sufficient for covering all our sin. So... it takes a lot of very sensitive work when treating psychiatric patients who have a religious factor.

I'm sorry you left the field. It is a fascinating field, and one where more Christians are needed to help the church to understand mental illness.
In my experience Psychiatry doesn't really attempt to differentiate religious experience from psychiatric symptoms. Any religious experience in a psychiatric patient seems to be treated as if it is pathological. Even mundane things like asking someone to pray with them may be treated as if Religious Ideation and can easily be the reason a "with Psychotic Features" can be added to a diagnosis.
I realise this is not true of all Psychiatrists, but it seems to be the common tendency of the field in general. A good example would be the man I mentioned in the OP, who I to this day do not consider to have been psychotic or definitively manic at all.

I think that Psychiatry itself needs to understand the Church and Religion in general and not automatically medicalise any religiousness. Its secular roots however are very strong and there is quite a lot of resistance to the idea of legitimate religious experience outside of the norms of society.

As in all things, I think both sides need to give each other a little more leeway.
 
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ValleyGal

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Not only more leeway, but they need enough relationship and understanding to work together for the client's good. I think the client's church should be a collateral when psychiatrists and social workers are making their professional assessments. Like I said, we are not enough... we need more in the field who are qualified to help religious folks who are also mentally ill. In fact, I think religion can be a significant part of the treatment.
 
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FireDragon76

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Are you aware of the term "fool for Christ"? Indeed, in the premodern context a lot of mental illness was considered a spiritual matter or even a spiritual calling, a sign that someone had been touched by God in an unusual way.

There is a Catholic saint, Benedict Joseph Labre, in the 18 century. He was rejected from several monastic orders due to his "constitution" not being up to it, a nice way of saying he was "not right in the head". He became a Third Order Franciscan layman and lived as a beggar, travelling around to religious shrines and preaching to other homeless people. He would frequently have spiritual experiences or ecstasies. Even stories of him performing miracles, such as duplication of Jesus' miracle of multiplying bread (since he shared food with other homeless people). After he died, thousands of people attended his funeral in Rome. In fact he is considered a patron saint of the mentally ill and homeless.

Another one comes to mind, Xenia of Petersburg, from Russia, also in the 18th century. After her husband died from alcoholism, she took his name and started wearing his military uniform and lived as a homeless person. She was said to have charismatic gifts, including clairvoyance. Indeed, being a "fool for Christ" is not a rare trope for a saint in the Orthodox world.

And of course, you are probably familiar with the story of St. Anthony selling everything and wandering off into the desert.

That example of the mildly manic man is probably a good example of somebody that just needed a spiritual director or a Christian counsellor.
 
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Are you aware of the term "fool for Christ"? Indeed, in the premodern context a lot of mental illness was considered a spiritual matter or even a spiritual calling, a sign that someone had been touched by God in an unusual way.

There is a Catholic saint, Benedict Joseph Labre, in the 18 century. He was rejected from several monastic orders due to his "constitution" not being up to it, a nice way of saying he was "not right in the head". He became a Third Order Franciscan layman and lived as a beggar, travelling around to religious shrines and preaching to other homeless people. He would frequently have spiritual experiences or ecstasies. Even stories of him performing miracles, such as duplication of Jesus' miracle of multiplying bread (since he shared food with other homeless people). After he died, thousands of people attended his funeral in Rome. In fact he is considered a patron saint of the mentally ill and homeless.

Another one comes to mind, Xenia of Petersburg, from Russia, also in the 18th century. After her husband died from alcoholism, she took his name and started wearing his military uniform and lived as a homeless person. She was said to have charismatic gifts, including clairvoyance. Indeed, being a "fool for Christ" is not a rare trope for a saint in the Orthodox world.

And of course, you are probably familiar with the story of St. Anthony selling everything and wandering off into the desert.

That example of the mildly manic man is probably a good example of somebody that just needed a spiritual director or a Christian counsellor.
I was aware of the term, but it is odd how we compartementalise our lives, for I had never connected it to this question.

Basil of the St Basil's Cathedral in Moscow is of course another example. He rebuked Ivan the Terrible himself, which only a madman would do.

These people are often very holy men, but can easily be construed mentally ill, if not actually so.
What I have wondered, is that if you experience the Glory of God or the true weight of our sins, could this not easily overwhelm our fragile psyches and render us insane? I mean really experience the Glory of God in all its splendour, eternal and timeless and magmanimous. Would not the weight of a single sin in light of such glory render the weak animalistic brain insensate as we drown in our sinfulness brought so stunningly into juxtaposition? Or the true weight of sin, of all the wrong you have done and its effects, would this not destroy our fragile Self in shame?
Normal Christians don't experience every sin or the true metaphysical depth within it nor plumb the true depths of God's Love where you obviously can drown in His infinite and indescrible nature.

In certain cases a 'special relationship' with God, a deep bond, between the mentally ill and God seem not only possible to me, but probable.

We try and fit people into our society, but as these examples of Holy Fools show, sometimes a bit of madness is necessary for the greater good.
Mental illness can be devastating to its sufferers, but God always has a plan for us.
I think we as Christians must tread a fine line here. Psychiatry likes criteria, these many days equal depression or a manic episode and this or that needs to be present, but I think the truth is far more nuanced and quite often missed entirely by Psychiatry, especcially when it comes to Religion.
 
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Not only more leeway, but they need enough relationship and understanding to work together for the client's good. I think the client's church should be a collateral when psychiatrists and social workers are making their professional assessments. Like I said, we are not enough... we need more in the field who are qualified to help religious folks who are also mentally ill. In fact, I think religion can be a significant part of the treatment.
I wish it could be so. We tended to ignore the pastors and so forth as participants in treatment, only using them for collateral history on the presentation. This was because the Consultants argued that it would 'feed their delusions' to have someone with a similar outlook take part and I think a bit of an feeling of superiority as the Professionals versus the inadequate amateurs.
I really don't think medicalisation nor ignorance of the religious aspects in certain mental illnesses is at all warranted or acceptable.
 
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ken777

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In modern Psychiatry, there is a concept called a Religious delusion or Religious Ideation.
This is when someone reports hearing voices or being called by God and is seen as a part of the presentation of mental illness.

However, it can be seen as any religious experience that impacts normal functioning.

Now I have worked in a Psychiatric Hospital before and have always had trouble with this concept. Often it is easy to see someone is insane, other times it is far harder.
We once saw two brothers who came in with a shared delusion: One said he was Jesus and the other agreed that his brother was. They were floridly Psychotic and clearly not functional.
Another time we had a Bipolar gentleman who claimed he felt God had called upon him to heal the sick and spread Love. He had proceeded to leave his job, explain the situation to his wife and left to do ministry to the downtrodden. Sufficed to say, he did appear a bit manic (very elated) and was brought in by his wife. My superiors then drugged him up and involuntarily admitted him. The thing is, this man was reasonable and I could feel he really loved his fellow man. I would think that if someone was recently called by God, they would very much have presented in this elevated mood that he showed.
The only reason he became a mental patient is because what he did was out of the ordinary, but Jesus told the wealthy man to sell all he had and Follow Him or Peter to leave his nets.
I really felt sorry for the man and it made me much more wary of Psychiatry in general (part of the reason I no longer work in it).

The medicalisation of religious experience is a very dangerous path to trod and I fear that in future any expression of religion may be tarred by the brush of mental illness.

For the problem is that Jesus or many of the great saints, can easily be written off as madmen when they are in fact the opposite, far more sane than the rest of us.

Perhaps the insane are having real religious experiences, they are just unable to process them and the accounts we receive are merely garbled in the process. I can easily see God reaching out more directly to them, as He comes for the sick and the sinner.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Your post reminded me of the Jews who said this about Jesus:
“He is demon-possessed and raving mad". (John 10:20, NIV)

And Peter's explanation to those on the day of Pentecost:
"These people are not drunk, as you suppose." (Acts 2:15)

If a congregation were to behave with the same enthusiasm as a crowd at a football match, I think there would be many who would call them crazy ... even other Christians.


...
 
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ValleyGal

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We are called to be of sound mind and sober judgement. I think it requires a great amount of discernment to work with mental illness with a religiosity component. In fact, I think it takes a great amount of discernment to decide on a church, denomination, or even which evangelists are godly or otherwise.

I'm sure a lot of people in Jesus' time may very well have thought he was not right in his mind for claiming to be the Son of God. Today if someone says they have heard his voice "almost audibly" people will think they are hearing voices and have them assessed for schizophrenia.

We need discernment in the mental health field, and using pastors as collaterals can help with that....but maybe pastors should be taking a basic curriculum on mental health as one of their courses. These kinds of things can come from mental illness, from God, or from Satan, or even from an internal state like over-stimulation or joy that someone does not know how to express appropriately.
 
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Truthfully, some people take the New Testament more literally then others, regarding spiritual gifts, trying to heal the sick by Faith, and so forth.
One person believes they can move a mountain if they believe, and another has trouble believing that Jesus is virgin born and also walked on water, yet both are saved by God, through Christ's blood, by Faith.

Its just people.......people react differently to the same situation.
There is also the fact that God calls some, and enables them to function within the call, and this person is going to have a totally different spiritual experience and walk, then the average "its Easter again, so i guess we have to go to Church again" Christian who is worried too much about money and basically exists to have fun and eat and watch the cable and text, get married, produce offspring, grow old, and die.

And all of this if analyzed through the secular lens of a Shrink's scope is going to seem "a little off", as that is how the world views the Born Again, as the bible says we are a "peculiar people" who are no longer to live as the world lives.
The world is flowing downstream, and the born again are flowing upstream.
So, this should flag us as "unique" if we are behaving as we should as befits a person who is "seated in heavenly places in Christ", while you are reading this post.
See it?
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Whet if clinical mental illness and demon oppression is one in the same?
As in one causes symptoms of the other and vice verse.
While possible, some psychotic states often go with religious phenomena like prayers etc. which I doubt are demon induced. Also I don't think medication would help demonic possession at all.
I don't have much experience with demons at all, but mental illness as a physical state is very real. I would think the mentally ill would be 'low-hanging fruit' for demon possession, but I think to label every mental illness as associated or induced by demons would be harmful and reckless.
 
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FireDragon76

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I agree, especially because "demon possessed" is such a loaded term. Maybe some people that are mentally ill are also demonically influenced or possessed, but then again a lot of people at Nuremberg were not mentally ill and yet conspired to kill millions of people. Evil is thoroughly banal.
 
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NOTWHATIWAS

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Whatever our weakened conditions-mental, physical, spiritual,strengthening our spiritual armor w/ prayer and study is so important. The enemy will seek out any compromised sections of this armor to find a way in and attack-sickness, disease, etc.
 
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