Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

[thomas_t]

Good morning jgr,
actually, I propose salvation as a group for Israel as a whole. This is my understanding of Romans 11:26.

According to your understanding, Christ will be there for all of them, so we'll see all of them in heaven.

no, Romans 2:29 says not every Israelite is a true Israelite. I am not sure where to draw the line when it comes to single cases. Jesus will.
Not every Israelite will end up in heaven as they might be numbered among the non-true Israelites.
Thomas

 

[thomas_t]

Thomas t, you are not winning this argument. Your replies smack of desperation and we all know why you must have a Israel on the ground, while you are 'raptured to heaven'.

As I've told you in my answers to you no.427, no.153, and no.58... I'm neutral towards any stance on what is called rapture.

The answer to that has to be; YES.
Jesus stands at the door an knocks and whoever opens the door, He will enter in. [open their hearts to Him, and they will be saved]

here we agree

 

[jgr]

Hi thomas_t,

Not every Israelite will end up in heaven as they might be numbered among the non-true Israelites.

True.

Then what characteristics distinguish the true Israelites from the non-true Israelites?

Would those characteristics be faith and obedience?

 

[mkgal1]

.

 

[keras]

As I've told you in my answers to you no.427, no.153, and no.58... I'm neutral towards any stance on what is called rapture.

But your insistence on the redemption of Israel, who in your thinking is only the Jewish State of Israel, is what the 'rapture to heaven' believers must have for their theory to work: Them in heaven and the Jews on earth going thru Tribulation and finally accepting Jesus. This scenario is not Biblical on either count.
Why should you espouse it?

You surely know that the Jews are not now the chosen people of God. They rejected Him, Matthew 27:25, so He rejected them. Matthew 21:43 We Christians ARE the Chosen people; John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9

We do not 'Replace' the Jews, they have removed themselves; it is the Lord's faithful believers who have always been God's people, all thru the history of mankind.
Even though the prophets do specify Israel as the recipients of God's Promises, the NT makes to clear who the true Israel of God are. ONLY those who believe in God and accept Jesus NOW.

 

[Douggg]

But your insistence on the redemption of Israel, who in your thinking is only the Jewish State of Israel, is what the 'rapture to heaven' believers must have for their theory to work: Them in heaven and the Jews on earth going thru Tribulation and finally accepting Jesus. This scenario is not Biblical on either count.

keras, you have spun that just backwards. In your scenario, you must have the church here on earth occupying the land of Israel, to be persecuted by the beast during that time, and also while God's wrath is being poured out on the earth.

___________________________________________________________

In biblical rapture belief, it is not just Jews left behind to go through the great tribulation, but also all them who are not looking for the rapture, believing it will take place - to escape.

 

[thomas_t]

Even though the prophets do specify Israel as the recipients of God's Promises,

amen to that half-sentence. You can't just swap the recipients of the promises, since it says: For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29. Even if the recipients make moves... this remains true, Keras.

the NT makes to clear who the true Israel of God are

You didn't prove your point that Christians are the "Israel of God", though. We've had the discussion already, please...

 

[mkgal1]

You didn't prove your point that Christians are the "Israel of God", though. We've had the discussion already, please...

In chapter 8 of the letter to the Hebrews - to what group is the author applying as the recipient of this covenant? Specifically this part:

Hebrews 8:6-13 ~
The New Covenant
(Jeremiah 31:26-40)

Now, however, Jesus has received a much more excellent ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is better and is founded on better promises. For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. But God found fault with the people and said:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,

when I will make a new covenant

with the house of Israel

and with the house of Judah.It will not be like the covenant

I made with their fathers

when I took them by the hand

to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

because they did not abide by My covenant,

and I disregarded them,

declares the Lord.For this is the covenant I will make

with the house of Israel

after those days,

declares the Lord.

I will put My laws in their minds,

and inscribe them on their hearts.

And I will be their God,

and they will be My people.No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother,

saying, ‘Know the Lord,’

because they will all know Me,

from the least of them to the greatest.For I will forgive their iniquities

and will remember their sins no more.”b

By speaking of a new covenant,c He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.​

 

[keras]

keras, you have spun that just backwards. In your scenario, you must have the church here on earth occupying the land of Israel, to be persecuted by the beast during that time, and also while God's wrath is being poured out on the earth.

___________________________________________________________

In biblical rapture belief, it is not just Jews left behind to go through the great tribulation, but also all them who are not looking for the rapture, believing it will take place - to escape.

Yes, we Christians will occupy all of the holy Land, from soon after all that area is cleared and cleansed by the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, until the AC breaks our treaty with him and conquers us. Zechariah 14:1-2 During that 42 month period the faithful Christians will be kept safe. Rev 12:14

You completely fail to understand from all the Prophesies how the Jewish State of Israel will be wiped out and only a remnant of messianic Jews will survive. This has happened twice to them; Babylon and Rome, but Ezekiel 20:14 says a third time is coming, this time by the Lord Himself. Romans 9:27 is proof.

Your parroting of the shockingly rude assertion that those who reject the 'rapture to heaven' theory will have to stay and endure the GT, is an indictment against you. The day will come when you will bitterly regret you made such an hateful accusation.

 

[keras]

amen to that half-sentence. You can't just swap the recipients of the promises, since it says: For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29. Even if the recipients make moves... this remains true, Keras.

Anthropology Thomas t, how much of that do you know?
What is the origins of the Western peoples?
Books on the origins of the human races or usually very obscure or have nothing about anything beyond that the Western people came from the Caucasus region. Then they jump to the earliest remains of humans in the African Rift Valley.
Rather a large gap between those two, a gap that remains shrouded to secular people, but can be filled in by Biblical history. How the Israelite people started with Jacob, then grew to many millions and occupied the holy Land, but they allowed other peoples to remain there, Judges 1:19-36 Those peoples infected the Israelites with their false religions and eventually God threw both Israel; the ten Northern tribes and Judah; the two Southern tribes, into exile.

That exile was for a decreed time period, Ezekiel 4:4-6 and Judah has come back now.
Israel still remains in exile and they have not yet rejoined, proved by what will happen when they do. Ezekiel 37
Note in Jeremiah 31:21 how the people of Israel left waymarks, still seen today; the many dolmens across Europe, as they travelled to their final destination of exile, where the Lord said He would bless and prosper them. Many secular histories tell of great population migrations in ancient times even continuing today. It did happen, the Israelites did become as many as the sands of the sea, they did occupy the gates of their enemies, they DID accept the Gospel and become Christians. John 10:16....other sheep I have, who are not of this fold...

So God WILL fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs and His Israelite people, be they actual descendants of Jacob or people from every race, nation and language; grafted in by their faith. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

This is the amazing secret of God, His hidden Plan to redeem Israel, His faithful people.
The prophecy of Ezekiel 20:32-38 is very informative, those who are of Israel who revolt and rebel, as the Jews have done, will not be allowed to live in the holy Land during the end times.
Another blow apart of the impossible 'rapture' theory, Douggg!

 

[thomas_t]

we Christians will occupy all of the holy Land, from soon after all that area is cleared and cleansed by the Lord's Day of fiery wrath

This is where it gets REALLY aggressive. Jews as the object of your ethnic cleansing...
and then you state that you and your fellow believers will steal their lands away. You call that "Christian". I call that theft.

Anthropology Thomas t, how much of that do you know?

nothing.
However, the Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly, Romans 2:29.

So God WILL fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs and His Israelite people, be they actual descendants of Jacob or people from every race, nation and language; grafted in by their faith. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

[bolded mine] grafted in by faith - that's the Christians. Not to be confused with His Israelite people. Big difference.

 

[Douggg]

Your parroting of the shockingly rude assertion that those who reject the 'rapture to heaven' theory will have to stay and endure the GT, is an indictment against you. The day will come when you will bitterly regret you made such an hateful accusation.

Why would you think those who reject and preach against the rapture to escape the great tribulation be taken? I don't understand your rationale.

 

[jgr]

Not to be confused with His Israelite people. Big difference.

Hi thomas_t,

No difference at all.

Isaiah prophesies that He will re-identify His People:

Isaiah 65
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Acts confirms it:

Acts 11
26 And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


God recognizes only Christians as His People.

The genes of the "Israelite people" are found within the entire human race.

They are not God's identification criteria.

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

 

[thomas_t]

Isaiah prophesies that He will re-identify His People:

Isaiah 65
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

That doesn't mean they are Christians now. Even if they get another name - Israel is still Israel. This passage has nothing to do with Acts 11:26.

 

[keras]

This is where it gets REALLY aggressive. Jews as the object of your ethnic cleansing...
and then you state that you and your fellow believers will steal their lands away. You call that "Christian". I call that theft.

nothing.
However, the Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly, Romans 2:29.
[bolded mine] grafted in by faith - that's the Christians. Not to be confused with His Israelite people. Big difference.

I call what you do, in your support for a mixed bunch of people who are basically godless: a denial of what scripture teaches and a stubborn, unteachable attitude.

You know nothing about the origins and the histories of modern people groups. You are therefore, unqualified to even discuss who are the ethnic Israelites of God.

God does NOT have Two People, Two Promises. There is only one people of God; John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 2:10-11

 

[keras]

Why would you think those who reject and preach against the rapture to escape the great tribulation be taken? I don't understand your rationale.

Firstly; there is no such thing as a 'rapture to heaven' for anyone other than the 2 Witnesses.

I reject the 'rapture', do you judge me for that?
We Christians are told to not judge our brethren, James 4:11-12
But be assured; I will continue to call you out for false teachings, rubbish timelines and posting ideas that belong in comics and Hollywood movies.

Then there is the many scriptures that do tell us what God will do for His people during the end times. How; many of the faithful Christians will be kept in a place of safety on earth, during the GT. Revelation 12:14
Those Christians who failed to trust in the Lord's protection, will face persecution in the GT. Revelation 12:17

 

[Douggg]

Firstly; there is no such thing as a 'rapture to heaven' for anyone other than the 2 Witnesses.

I reject the 'rapture', do you judge me for that?
We Christians are told to not judge our brethren, James 4:11-12

Then there is the many scriptures that do tell us what God will do for His people during the end times. How many of the faithful Christians will be kept in a place of safety during the GT. Revelation 12:14

keras, you have evaded the question, denying that there will be a rapture. So I will repackage it, to fit your position.

Should there be a "rapture to heaven", why would you think those who reject and preach against the rapture to escape the great tribulation be taken?

 

[jgr]

That doesn't mean they are Christians now. Even if they get another name - Israel is still Israel. This passage has nothing to do with Acts 11:26.

Since, as you correctly claim, the name "Israel" has not changed, it therefore does not qualify as "another name" by which God calls His Servants (Isaiah 65:15).

"Christians" is "another name", which Scripture specifically identifies (Acts 11:26), and which thus fully qualifies as the fulfillment of "another name", who are "His Servants", in Isaiah 65:15.

The name "Israel" does not identify God's Servants, as physical Israel is comprised of both Christians and non-Christians. The non-Christians are not God's Servants.

The name "Christians" does identify God's Servants. They alone are "His Servants", who are called by "another name".

It has everything to do with Acts 11:26.

 

[thomas_t]

Since, as you correctly claim, the name "Israel" has not changed, it therefore does not qualify as "another name" by which God calls His Servants (Isaiah 65:15).

Why not. The rapper Eminem also had multiple names.

"Christians" is "another name", which Scripture specifically identifies (Acts 11:26), and which thus fully qualifies as the fulfillment of "another name", who are "His Servants", in Isaiah 65:15.

When someone gets a new name... this doesn't mean the noone will get another name anymore. Second names are quite useful.
So Isaiah and Acts 11:26 aren't linked to each other. Both passages seem to be about names, that's all.

 

[thomas_t]

a denial of what scripture teaches and a stubborn, unteachable attitude.

No, neither do I have a denial of what scripture teaches, I think, nor a stubborn unteachable attitude.

God does NOT have Two People, Two Promises. There is only one people of God; John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 2:10-11

Not one of the posted sciptures rule out that there are two sets of promises.
It's just your supposition.
God still works with Israel.
Thomas