Christian Zionism - a modern-day heresy?

[SolomonVII]

Another words "replacement theology".

The discussion below was started by a non-Christian Jew and this doctrine has always fascintated me.

http://www.christianforums.com/t1514356-8/#post14966798
Replacement Theology and Anti-Semitism






.

Muffler Dragon was likely a Messianic Christian at the time, or at least had that icon rather than the Jewish one that his posts now all appear under.

 

[Rhamiel]

not sure that "freedom" is the opposite of "Hamas"

you are setting up a false dichotomy

war is a choice
bombing the King David Hotel was another choice, a choice that is rightly called an act of Terrorism

not that matters much now, Israel is a reality, I do not want to see it "wiped out"

the Zionist mentality really seems to be that of victim turned abuser, like the kid who was beaten by dad at home and now is a bully at school
not saying that such a reaction is not understandable, after the horrors of the Holocaust it makes sense that there are some SERIOUS problems to deal with as a culture

 

[MoreCoffee]

People shrug off war so easily. They make it about winners and losers but they don't stop to think what it meant for the people who died.

In 1947 There was no state of Israel. There was Irgun and Haganah both terrorist organisations every bit as implacable and wicked as Hamas. There were bloody massacres and exterminations every bit as evil and wicked as Al Queda. There was land theft and murder and mayhem and terror to drive the inhabitants of Palestine away fleeing for their lives. So no, it isn't and it wasn't a matter of the good against the wicked it is the wicked against the defenceless on both sides and it still is.

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Christianity would expect that the Israelis would allow themselves to be exterminated in 1947. Bottom line, Israelis fought a war, beat the odds and won.

Neocons and militant Zionist might not be so shocked by immoral behavior as you might thing. Welcome to the real world, where war is a choice, and war has consequences.

In the meantime, the choice is between supporting freedom, or supporting Hamas. There is no third option.

So the morality of it is pretty clear.

I don't quite see how your reply relates to anything I wrote in the quote you were replying to.

 

[SolomonVII]

not sure that "freedom" is the opposite of "Hamas"

I guess that Hamas might mean freedom to those predisposed to authoritarianism.
I already asked if that was the case for any group of Christians here.

you are setting up a false dichotomy

The dichotomy was already set with people here assuming that those neocons and militant Zionist were being inconsistent in supporting Israel, when Israel allows gays to have parades and a public presence, which runs contrary to conservative values.
Freedom is worth it, and Israel is a free country.

war is a choice
bombing the King David Hotel was another choice, a choice that is rightly called an act of Terrorism

It is called an act of terrorism. There is no need to capitalize the 't'.

not that matters much now, Israel is a reality, I do not want to see it "wiped out"

Setting up a Jewish homeland was always a legitimate enterprise.
But you are correct. 1947 is long since passed, and to drag that up again in order to legitimize what is happening now against Israel is rather disingenous.

the Zionist mentality really seems to be that of victim turned abuser, like the kid who was beaten by dad at home and now is a bully at school
not saying that such a reaction is not understandable, after the horrors of the Holocaust it makes sense that there are some SERIOUS problems to deal with as a culture

The victim in this case is Hitler II. Hamas never given up the dreams of the Holocaust, and who provokes the "bully" Jew through rocketing the 'Hotel David' over and over again, aiming especially for all the little 'Davids' aka children.

Pardon the pun, but it is not exactly rocket science to discern where the morality lies now. It is a shame that Christians allow adherance to Replacement Theology determine their opposition to a thoroughly freedom loving country, when the option is some form of totalitarianism, of either the Islamist ,or decreasingly, the secularist Arabic variety.

 

[Rhamiel]

"freedom loving countries" do not occupy other countries

just as I do not totally blame Israeli culture for bearing the scares of the Holocaust, I can not totally blame Palestinian culture for bearing the scares of Zionist oppression

hate breeds hate
violence breeds violence

 

[MoreCoffee]

"freedom loving countries" do not occupy other countries

just as I do not totally blame Israeli culture for bearing the scares of the Holocaust, I can not totally blame Palestinian culture for bearing the scares of Zionist oppression

hate breeds hate
violence breeds violence

That's what it does and in the meantime mothers and fathers lose their sons and daughters and some lose their own lives too and all for the sake of political entities and rulers who think of the young men in their land as expendable for the sake of some 'ideal' that is little more than greed wrapped in a patriot's flag.

 

[SolomonVII]

"freedom loving countries" do not occupy other countries

Sure they do. America "occupied" Germany, Japan and South Korea precisely because America is a freedom loving country.

just as I do not totally blame Israeli culture for bearing the scares of the Holocaust, I can not totally blame Palestinian culture for bearing the scares of Zionist oppression

There are no scars of Zionist oppression. The oppression of the Arabs has always come at the hands of other Arabs.
Is it Replacement Theology that demands that Israelis not do all that needs to be done to protect themselves from people that want them dead, and blow up one Hotel David after another in order to bring that about?

There is no freedom-option for the Palestinian side. Neo-cons lost, remember? The freedom option is no longer in play. There are only various forms of totalitarianism now that represent the cause of any and all Arabs.

The only freedom option in the Middle East now is Israel, and that point was already made as a mocking gesture against the neocons and the militant Zionists. Obviously that argument already backfired.
Israel is a democracy, and a civil society. Israel is the freedom loving country. Democracy in unoccupied Gaza on the other hand begats Hamas.

hate breeds hate
violence breeds violence

That is a truism. It sounds nice, and makes the heart feel sweet as the user rises above all the woes and hard decisions that other people have to make, but it is ultimately meaningless. It provides no sense of direction of how to deal with a world that is already violent.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Muffler Dragon was likely a Messianic Christian at the time, or at least had that icon rather than the Jewish one that his posts now all appear under.

Not sure. I thought he was always a non-Christian Jew. He was well versed in the Hebrew OT.

Anywho, isn't it mainly the zionist dispensationalist Christians that want the Jews to build a future 3rd Temple in the future?

Frome what I have heard, the Jews would rather Christians mind their own business concerning that.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7647317/
Should Christians support Jews in rebuilding of Third Temple? [poll thread]

I personally was greatly encouraged by the response that I received to this question when I posed it on the Christian Heritage Party of Canada discussion forum.

I admit that I personally flip-flipped back and forth on this question over several years as I read differing viewpoints on this but at this time I believe that the answer is reasonably simple....Rabbi Jesus/Yahushua taught us that every single word in the prophets must be fulfilled so all that is stated about the Jerusalem Third or Fourth Temple Mount Complex must occur!

I went through a significant theological and philosophical crisis back in 1990 when I began to read the near death experience accounts. The worst thing about them is that they presented a powerful case that some sort of hellish higher dimensional prison environment probably does indeed exist.....but anyway I read My Descent Into Death by former atheist Howard Storm about two years ago. What he was shown regarding the ushering in of the full fledged era of Messiah/Moshiach would sure fit with a literal Jerusalem Temple exactly as described by the prophet Ezekiel!

.

 

[samcarternx]

As is written in Daniel, none of the kingdoms of this world will prevail. All are DOOMED. The Kingdom of Heaven prevails.

 

[TraditionalCatholic]

"We cannot prevent Jews from going to Jerusalem, but we can never sanction it. The ground of Jerusalem, if it were not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise. Jews have not recognized Our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people. They had ample time to acknowledge Christ's divinity without pressure, but they didn't. Should the Jews manage to set foot on the once promised old-new land, the missionaries of the Church would stand prepared to baptize them. Jerusalem cannot be placed in Jewish hands" Pope St. Pius X to Theodore Herzl

 

[TraditionalCatholic]

St. John Chrysostom First Homily on the Jews:

"But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God's grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: "It is no fair to take the children's bread and to cast it to the dogs". Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs.

(2) But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision". Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? "But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God".

(3) Nothing is more miserable than those people who never failed to attack their own salvation. When there was need to observe the Law, they trampled it under foot. Now that the Law has ceased to bind, they obstinately strive to observe it. What could be more pitiable that those who provoke God not only by transgressing the Law but also by keeping it? On this account Stephen said: "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart, you always resist the Holy Spirit", not only by transgressing the Law but also by wishing to observe it at the wrong time.

(4) Stephen was right in calling them stiff-necked. For they failed to take up the yoke of Christ, although it was sweet and had nothing about it which was either burdensome or oppressive. For he said: "Learn from me for I am meek and humble of heart", and "Take my yoke upon you, for my yoke is sweet and my burden light". Nonetheless they failed to take up the yoke because of the stiffness of their necks. Not only did they fail to take it up but they broke it and destroyed it. For Jeremiah said: "Long ago you broke your yoke and burst your bonds". It was not Paul who said this but the voice of the prophet speaking loud and clear. When he spoke of the yoke and the bonds, he meant the symbols of rule, because the Jews rejected the rule of Christ when they said: "We have no king but Caesar". You Jews broke the yoke, you burst the bonds, you cast yourselves out of the kingdom of heaven, and you made yourselves subject to the rule of men. Please consider with me how accurately the prophet hinted that their hearts were uncontrolled. He did not say: "You set aside the yoke", but "You broke the yoke" and this is the crime of untamed beasts, who are uncontrolled and reject rule."

 

[Rhamiel]

It is a shame that Christians allow adherance to Replacement Theology determine their opposition to a thoroughly freedom loving country, when the option is some form of totalitarianism, of either the Islamist ,or decreasingly, the secularist Arabic variety.

the only theology I am using is just war theory and a Christian understanding of morality

it makes no difference to be, from a rights of a Nation stand point, if the people of Israel were mostly Jewish, or Hispanic, or Hindu
they have been unjust to Palestine

we need a two state solution, it is as simple as that

 

[SolomonVII]

the only theology I am using is just war theory and a Christian understanding of morality

it makes no difference to be, from a rights of a Nation stand point, if the people of Israel were mostly Jewish, or Hispanic, or Hindu
they have been unjust to Palestine

we need a two state solution, it is as simple as that

Sure.

The solution is very simple is as simple as the explanation.

The Middle East Problem - Prager University

The two state solution has been there since 1947. It includes Jewish Israel being accepted as one of those states.

It is just that simple.

I think Traditional Catholic does give the traditional Catholic side very well though, even including silver tongue Saint John, who talked himself hoarse in his days long sermon against the Jew.

After the latest Holocaust, a lot of other Christians finally had enough of that kind of theology defining Christianity as a whole.

One point that should be elucidated.
I don't see the Hamas totalitarians et all as wanting to "wipe out " Jewish Israel. I see Hamas as committed to the goal of wiping out Israel.

These are not modern Lutherans who know how to place the appropriate "wink" when it comes to the Lutheran constitution and the idea of the anti-christ papacy.

I see Hamas as meaning what they say, and saying what they mean when it comes to their constitution and the actions that follow.

The solution is simple. When Hitler II accepts the right to live side and side with the Jew, allow Jews to co-exist on the West Bank as Palestinians already co-exist in Israel proper, then peace will come.

It is just that simple.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Rhamiel
................we need a two state solution, it is as simple as that

Sure.

The solution is simple.
When Hitler II accepts the right to live side and side with the Jew, allow Jews to co-exist on the West Bank as Palestinians already co-exist in Israel proper, then peace will come.

It is just that simple.

Who is Hitler II



.

 

[Alive_Again]

it makes no difference to be, from a rights of a Nation stand point, if the people of Israel were mostly Jewish, or Hispanic, or Hindu
they have been unjust to Palestine

we need a two state solution, it is as simple as that

It's hard to believe the Jews have been anything but fair.

Go to Youtube and listen to Hal Lindsey's "the Big Lie". It's about 10 minutes long. It's an excellent presentation of how things went down, especially for the Palestinian people.

They were given a huge amount of land and it was basically kept by what is now the Jordanians, and the Palestinians were left in the gap. Their own people will not take them in.

So the Jewish part was smaller and of course the Arabs and Muslims were not content with that. The Jewish nation would not be tolerated at all! They pretty much all invaded and God stepped up and put them down. They kept some additional territory and who wouldn't with enemies on every side?

Personally, I don't know why they even talk about any concessions at all. The land was promised to them by God. Everything they have, they were given or took by conquest. Why give part of Jerusalem back to them? They didn't have to.

As Hal points out, Arab settlers in Israel have been treated better than any other nation would.

Anyway, this all stems from Britain taking over "by right of conquest". The same way it's been done for thousands of years. It's gone both ways. Now it's in Israel's hands and the vanquished have all of these "rights".

God's hand is all over this and it is foolish for people to put them down. A certain amount of blindness was permitted to come on them and we are the ones who benefit from that. Many Jews are being saved. One day, the whole nation will basically come in. In the mean time, people should not be self-righteous about who they are in this hour.

They are a blessed nation, not because many believe in what we call the Old Testament, but because of God's promise to Abraham.

That's good enough for me. Is it good enough for you?

 

[SolomonVII]

Who is Hitler II



.

Hitler I would be Adolph.His was the Final Solution.

Hitler II would be those who follow in his footsteps,

Hamas does not want a two state solution.

 

[SolomonVII]

It's hard to believe the Jews have been anything but fair.

Go to Youtube and listen to Hal Lindsey's "the Big Lie". It's about 10 minutes long. It's an excellent presentation of how things went down, especially for the Palestinian people.

They were given a huge amount of land and it was basically kept by what is now the Jordanians, and the Palestinians were left in the gap. Their own people will not take them in.

So the Jewish part was smaller and of course the Arabs and Muslims were not content with that. The Jewish nation would not be tolerated at all! They pretty much all invaded and God stepped up and put them down. They kept some additional territory and who wouldn't with enemies on every side?

Personally, I don't know why they even talk about any concessions at all. The land was promised to them by God. Everything they have, they were given or took by conquest. Why give part of Jerusalem back to them? They didn't have to.

As Hal points out, Arab settlers in Israel have been treated better than any other nation would.

Anyway, this all stems from Britain taking over "by right of conquest". The same way it's been done for thousands of years. It's gone both ways. Now it's in Israel's hands and the vanquished have all of these "rights".

God's hand is all over this and it is foolish for people to put them down. A certain amount of blindness was permitted to come on them and we are the ones who benefit from that. Many Jews are being saved. One day, the whole nation will basically come in. In the mean time, people should not be self-righteous about who they are in this hour.

They are a blessed nation, not because many believe in what we call the Old Testament, but because of God's promise to Abraham.

That's good enough for me. Is it good enough for you?

It is rather a miraculous story.
God never chose the hebrewnation in order to glorify them. But he did chose them in order that he might reveal himself to the world.

Still, it is not inevitable that this latest emergence of Israel as a Jewish nation will not be just another footnote to failure.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hitler I would be Adolph.His was the Final Solution.

Hitler II would be those who follow in his footsteps,

Hamas does not want a two state solution.

Nor does Benjamin Netanyahu and his government.

 

[SolomonVII]

Louis XIV could state with absolute conviction and sincerity, as simple statement of fact, that "I am the State" and it would be a true statement.

Societies based in freedom are not defined by their leaders. They are defined by what has become known as civil society.
First their is the citizen given free reign to express their mind and act within their conscience. The life of St Thomas More is a concrete example of the origins of such an ideal.
Then there is media freedom and the encouragement of as many ideas and options as possible being made available to a choosing public. There are courts there to protect the rights of freedom of the individual and society as a whole. There is divided government with many avenues available to keep the art of governance as close to the individual as possible. There are free associations where people can get together and vie against people with differing ideas as to what constitutes the best way to run a society. There is an effective and impartial police force ensuring that people are not intimidated to act against their understanding and their consciences.

Israel is a free society, or as it is often expressed in caclulus, it approaches a free society, even if infinite freedom exists as an imaginary quantity beyond the finitudes of the possible.

Nethanayu does not self-describe himself with the statement of "I am the State", nor would it be a credible statement even if he were to say as much.

My premise is that supporting civil society is the moral choice. Civil society in the Levant is realized in the State of Israel, It is not even contemplated in the aims of Hamas and Abbas.

It is not rocket science therefore to recognize where the moral choice lies.

 

[SolomonVII]

..
Frome what I have heard, the Jews would rather Christians mind their own business concerning that.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7647317/
Should Christians support Jews in rebuilding of Third Temple? [poll thread]





.

I think that the truth or heresy of any teaching is not just a matter of blind faith or personal conviction.
William James and the pragmatic principle, or Jesus and noting that the nature of a plant becomes known by the fruits that it produces, gives of some concrete rules of thumb through which to judge.
Third Temple would instigate WWIII which is what some militant cultists want.

Blessed are the war-makers is not a valid Biblical or Christian principle.