Christian women & Headcovering??

[Arsenios]

I come across it quite a bit amongst more conservative/fundamentalist folk. The idea that a wife's submission to her husband should be as total, and as obedient, and so on, as the church's (ideal) submission to Christ.

In the early '60's, before the Civil Rights Movement I had a friend in the army from Anniston Alabama... He had been a preacher there, and a barber, and was training in chemical warfare... And a female officer gave him an order, and he ignored her, went on about his business, and embarassed her by not even acknowledging her presence. So she reported him to the Captain, who came and took him aside and asked him what the Sam Hill he was doing... And he carefully explained to the Captain that he is a Christian, and women do not tell men what to do, and that God is more important than some woman thinking she had authority over a man...

The captain understood better than I did at the time, for I was a northern white-boy atheist then, and my friend was a southern black-boy preacher, and the captain was a black man... And for the purposes of military discipline he straightened my friend out... He could have civil rights in the South by serving under the integration of military discipline, or he could be imprisoned and dishonorably discharged from the Army because he was too proud to take orders from a female officer. My friend made the right choice.

He has been dead now some 20 years, and is still my friend... When I became a Christian I called him to let him know, but he had just passed... He's watching over me these days, and I pray for him and for those who are his...

It is important to pick one's fights, and "belief systems" can get really crazy... Zeal can turn ugly... The Code of Bushido never failed the Japanese in WWWII... Nor did fundamentalist Christianity fail the bigoted southern white men who fought them...

But these are all worldly matters...

Because man was created in the Image of God, his marriage is blessed as that very image, and that Image is informed by the Mystery of the Marriage of the Lamb to the Ekklesia, the Bride of God, and in this Ikon (Image), a life of self-sacrifice and self-denial can be lived unto God by those who decide to do so... For it keeps Christ ever before those who live such a life in marriage... This world is not, for those who follow Christ, about worldly self-fulfillment...

Marriage now is an archaic anachronism - We are no longer a Christian country... Few Christians see Marriage as the Sacrament that it is for those following Christ... And if not a Sacrament [A Mystery for us Orthodox...] then one can hardly complain when people want marriage to be with all manner of "living arrangements"...

The horse you are beating here is no longer all that alive...

And time is precious in the quest for union with God...

Which is the REAL Marriage that both husband and wife should desire...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

My Concern is, Why are we as Christians NOT on the same Page?
Are we not followers of the same Christ; followers of the same God?

Just some quick background information about me. I love to watch religious debates because it: strengthens my faith, helps me to answer hard questions, and allows me to pick the minds of others. I am not here to debate though, rather just to gain some basic understanding.

we all agree that inner holiness, love, charity, submission to Christ Jesus, is first.

#1) However, shouldn't our "beliefs in our heart, reflect outwardly in our appearance, and with our behavior?"

#2) When people see us, shouldn't they automatically " SEE CHRIST IN US"?

#3) Shouldn't our outer garments also represent Christ? Our whole purpose is dying to our selfish nature, and separating ourselves from worldliness, including its fashions!!!!

These are my main points for now! I think the Love Doctrine has overridden the holiness doctrine which clearly states: "Be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind"! Glory to God in the highest!

I agree...

"Minimal Christianity" has got to be an abomination to God!

Thanks for a good post!

Arsenios

 

[NeedyFollower]

What you're saying amounts to an exposition of lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi... and it's not wrong. But it doesn't apply equally to everything at all times for every person. What I'm objecting to is the idea that a woman who doesn't cover her head is somehow less of a Christian than a woman who does, simply because of this fact of head covering.

I'm also objecting to the idea of head covering as always a blessing when the issues around women's roles, power and so on are already very socially complex.

My mum was Catholic, but she hasn't been a regular churchgoer for a long time.

Hi Sister ...I believe that there are certainly different levels of understanding. No different than my points of view ..(how I see things ) has changed as I grew with age or when I looked in a different direction. I am well aware on a personal basis that there are some people of a christian tradition who dress modestly but are just as carnal as an unbeliever. ( This is from their own mouth and based on their own experience. ) Similarly , there are christians totally unaware of their appearance ..with or without head covered . I can be "dressed to impress" ( although I choose not to dress up as it were ) but I can be equally "proud" of my humble but "christian " rags . ( I do not wear rags either . ) We are admonished not to adorn the outward as becomes holiness but we have pretty much lost that admonition ..both men and women . Whereas many would say that it is a cultural thing and has no spiritual value , then my question would be ..if outward has no value , why do we allow fashion magazines and television to convince us to spend so much money and place so much emphasis on the outward ?

Was Jesus Christ the Son of God prior to washing His disciples feet ? Yes . Did He have to wash their feet in order to become the Son of God ? No . He did it in order to demonstrate some things . His whole life was a visible demonstration of God . It is the way I look at the head covering as well ...it is an opportunity but will not change our hearts . A proud heart with a head that is covered is still a proud heart ..a humble heart , is a humble heart .

Women's roles , power and so forth are being determined by society , the same as man's . That is one reason they are socially complex . Society changes like shifting sand and we drift along with it but that is not who we are supposed to be. " Men " who claimed to be christian but abused their wives , have given christianity a bad name and submission as well . Is submission bad ? If Christ had not submitted Himself to the will of the Father , what hope would we have ? Was it unfair ? Yes ..for I am the sinner and not He.
Mens' roles have been equally corrupted by the idea of success . Men have been busy chasing careers instead of praying with their wives and children and being a helpmate to their wives . We have allowed our love of stuff and social considerations to define us rather than God's most heart wrenching sacrifice . What do we care what society thinks ? What is the chaff to the wheat ?

 

[corinth77777]

God stated: "that we should worship God in Spirit and in Truth"!
spirit means= according to the way God wants it done.
truth means= according to the word of God. Not according to our feelings or how we would like to worship God. (David Lynn)

1 Corinthians 11: 3-16 This is a very long verse about the hair covering. So I will not type it all , but you are free to look it up!!!

Blessings

First question would be...what does it mean in that culture for a head to be veiled?
2nd would be Why is He responding to this? Another words what is taking place so to answer these questions..

What is head covering?

But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

 

[corinth77777]

Judge ye in yourselves: is it seemly that a woman pray unto God unveiled?

What...does it say judge for yourself...
Is that even a problem in our day?
The Corinthians were carnal they had not, in my opinion mature...so they argued about elementary things....

 

[Arsenios]

What is head covering?

It is a woman's prayer closet...

But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her:
for her hair is given her for a covering.

A covering is for her, a great benefit...
Forcing it on her is not a reat benefit...

Arsenios

 

[corinth77777]

?

 

[Timahani]

Thanks so much for all of you who put in time to respond to this post. I learned one thing for sure, that the diversity in Christianity is completely beautiful. Thanks as well, for all the beautiful pictures of those veiled sisters in Christ.

 

[~Zao~]

Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoreth his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonoreth her head.

Seems pretty clear to me. At most, ladies when you are praying or prophesying for the congregation, cover your heads. Any other time, don't bother.

Women covered their heads in church when I was a kid. With hats. Big, big, hats. Really big hats. Big, ostentatious hats.

I don't think that was Paul's point in any respect.

What if they don't have a kerchief? And should all men have their hands up in the air?

 

[Timahani]

you don't necessarily need a hankerchief to cover your head. There are many different ways and styles of head covering. I am not saying that, that is the only way that women can pray to God. I wasn't sure, that is why I posted here.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I stopped covering my head when I became Christian. Christ set me free, and I'm free indeed.

 

[Hazelelponi]

you don't necessarily need a hankerchief to cover your head. There are many different ways and styles of head covering. I am not saying that, that is the only way that women can pray to God. I wasn't sure, that is why I posted here.

Christ and my husband are my head covering..

 

[~Zao~]

Christ and my husband are my head covering..

Then you also need to be saved by having babies. And men need to have there hands in the air while praying.

 

[RDKirk]

What if they don't have a kerchief? And should all men have their hands up in the air?

To be considered in answer to your question are Paul's deliberately specific "every" and my deliberately vague "at most."

 

[~Zao~]

To be considered in answer to your question are Paul's deliberately specific "every" and my deliberately vague "at most."

Are the customs what is worth saving or the spiritual aspects?

 

[Timahani]

I stopped covering my head when I became Christian. Christ set me free, and I'm free indeed.

What religion were u before?

 

[Hazelelponi]

What religion were u before?

Muslim

 

[Timahani]

The question is simple. Does God require the headcovering or no? Respectfully, I am not interested in what man thinks. I do not like to cover my head, however if God requires it then: my obedience is a must!

 

[Timahani]

Hazelelponi! Awesome!

 

[RDKirk]

Are the customs what is worth saving or the spiritual aspects?

It depends on whether the customs are based on spiritual aspects.

I learned--the hard way--not to throw out a "custom" until I knew the problem it it had developed to solve, and to make sure either that problem no longer existed or that I had a better solution in hand.