Christian women & Headcovering??

[Cuddles333]

1st century history in that part of the world reveals that the pagan temples consisted of female priestesses with their hair cut short, females with bald heads because they were in mourning of the god Apollos, and male priests with long hair or wearing wigs and feminine garb by commandment of the goddess Aphrodite.

The priestesses were said to be able to communicate with the deites and even Roman soldiers would consult them before battle. Before Constantine destroyed all these pagan temples (there may have been more than the number of today's fast-food joints) he commented about how all the male pagan priests looked like women. I suppose he had an aversion to running his sword through a helpless female.

With this knowledge of the 1st century history, it is easier to understand 1Cor. chapters 11 and 14 and why the Apostle Paul put a 'muzzle' on these newly converted former pagan priests and priestesses.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Simply put, Have Christian women traded in their divine values to follow worldly fashion?

A theologian, (who has a Masters Degree in Christian theology) and who is very popular on you tube stated that : " Christian Women should be covering their head with a headscarf because it is our modest duty to the Lord; as written in the Holy Bible's New Testament".

Before you stone me, I am NOT stating that I am in favor of the idea. As I have forever enjoyed modesty without the veil. However, if I am in error and if I am in ANY way shape or form not pleasing the Lord; then I need to look into this further!

To save you time on explanations: 1) I realize that we are no longer under the Old Testament; however there are scriptures in the NT that clearly state that women should cover their heads.

Most importantly, I think it is important to know that : GOD DOES NOT CHANGE!!!
So my question still stands: Are Christian women dishonoring God by not wearing a head covering?

**** Please no responses based upon worldly concepts of fashion. I would like to be advised based on the word of God. Thank you

Hi Sister ...As a christian man , I am broken hearted at the lack of modesty in both christian men and women. We dress to impress ..not to honor God . Prior to the influence of New York , Hollywood , etc. ALL christian women kept their heads covered. Not to be legalistic but this is why many amish continue the practice ....not because they started covering their head ...they never stopped . They did not have the worldly influence . Recently a Muslim man living in the US told me that all women of faith both christian and muslim covered their head in his country until the advent of TV . I know many "plain people" who wear modest attire due to culture and tradition . This has lead to legalism . That being said , I think a christian woman who wants to please God and not man is the most beautiful site in the world . Many christian women have no regard in trying to be "attractive" to the opposite sex . Why are we trying to attract anyone ? Are we a savior ? Can we bring eternal life ? No , we must decrease so that Jesus can increase for in HIM is life . I think when the apostle ( Paul )given by Jesus Christ himself to us gentiles said that for this reason a woman has power on her head ..He was talking about the power of submission ...although unconverted christian men have abused the word submission , Jesus demonstrated the power of submitting himself to God and God raised him from the dead ..That is pretty powerful . To anyone who doubts that Paul was sent by Jesus to us ...what has your opinion cost compared to the price Paul paid to write the words you read . Sister I hope that helps but I warn you ...Cain and Able both believed in God and they both offered a sacrifice. Do not expect to be popular or accepted by men .

 

[Radagast]

Christian Women should be covering their head with a headscarf because it is our modest duty to the Lord; as written in the Holy Bible's New Testament

If this is so, it applies only in church or at prayer, as has already been pointed out. It is still the practice for the majority of Christian women around the world, I would think.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Paul was a great man, but he wasn't perfect.

Brother .. A while back I read these words which I must have seen many times without seeing if you know what I mean. It is from 1 Corinthians 14:37 . If any man think himself prophetic or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. I do not know anyone who suffered the loss of all things in order to bring the message of salvation to the gentiles like our brother Paul . How many theologians from Duke , Yale , Harvard , Southeastern or just those of us on this forum ( both men and women ) have been beaten 3 times 39 lashes until our skin was ripped off ? How about stoned and left for dead ? Shipwrecked ? Bitten by a poison viper and survived ? Preached all night , revived someone dead who fell out of a loft and then left the next morning apparently without sleeping . All the while making tents to support himself and others . His reward ? Being called a false brother and then beheaded . So if Paul was NOT sent by Jesus Christ , ( the meaning of apostle ) we must reject his letters ...all of them and look for another apostle in our own day. These teachings were not only for Corinth but were held to throughout Christianity until modern times . Peter also stresses the inner beauty ..not the outward adorning. Must we also teacher both Peter and and Paul a thing or two ?

 

[RDKirk]

The priestesses were said to be able to communicate with the deites and even Roman soldiers would consult them before battle. Before Constantine destroyed all these pagan temples (there may have been more than the number of today's fast-food joints) he commented about how all the male pagan priests looked like women. I suppose he had an aversion to running his sword through a helpless female.

Constantine maintained his Imperial role as official chief priest of the pagan community through his life. The general practice of removing "all these pagan temples" began with Constantine II.

 

[Radagast]

Paul was a great man, but he wasn't perfect.

He was an apostle.

His epistles are the inspired word of God.

 

[Arsenios]

I'm not sure I completely agree. For example, my family are migrants. My mother might go to church here and worship in a different language, with different local customs and liturgy, and so forth, than what she grew up with. But she would be expressing the same faith she had before she left her home country.

Faith and expression are like an object and its packaging; you can change the packaging (the expression) while the object so packaged (the faith) remains the same.

The fly in the ointment here is that we become what we do...
So that a change in one's praxis changes one's self...
Doing virtue brings virtue into self...
Doing evil brings evil into self...
That is why what we do is so important...

The point of the Christian Faith is not that we "express OUR faith" so much as that we grow more deeply and completely into the Faith of Christ... The point of Christian virtue is to disciple us in our transformation from the indelible Image of God into the Likeness of Christ our God...

Hence the "packaging" which you see as but the superficial fluff of the underlying faith of the person is far, far more than a mere external and superficial feature of "her faith"...

It is in the praxis of the discipleship of the Church that efficacious transformation takes place... For the vast majority of us, the discipleship of a Melchidesek is simply not how we are brought forth... We are discipled under that priesthood by its normally ordained priests and Servants of God within the Church...

The headcovering of women in Church is a great blessing for the women... It is a part of the historical, not to mention Biblical, practice of the Faith of Christ... If you are interested in pursuing an understanding of this, spend some time hanging out with pious women who do so, and then talk with them about it...

And yes, it can devolve into a pharisitic practice of shaming women who do not cover their heads in Church... But it should not so devolve...

Arsenios

ps - What Faith in the Old Country is your Mom?

 

[Arsenios]

Why are other monotheistic faiths, (such as: the jews, muslims, some Christians), still (having women wearing headcoverings)?... Do they know something that we do not know.

The Faith of Christ is struggle... Willful denial of self-will is an act of force for the violent...

What do traditional Christians know that we do not? Knowing willful obedience is a struggle with rewards that can only be known to those who practice it, and the practice of it is the only way to know it.

Pro football is much the same...
Armchair Monday morning quarterbacks do not know the Game, but those on the field do...
Knowing is doing...

So if you want to actually know,
then asking here will only help you
to somewhat to know about
something you are asking...

Arsenios

 

[Paidiske]

The fly in the ointment here is that we become what we do...
So that a change in one's praxis changes one's self...
Doing virtue brings virtue into self...
Doing evil brings evil into self...
That is why what we do is so important...

The point of the Christian Faith is not that we "express OUR faith" so much as that we grow more deeply and completely into the Faith of Christ... The point of Christian virtue is to disciple us in our transformation from the indelible Image of God into the Likeness of Christ our God...

Hence the "packaging" which you see as but the superficial fluff of the underlying faith of the person is far, far more than a mere external and superficial feature of "her faith"...

It is in the praxis of the discipleship of the Church that efficacious transformation takes place... For the vast majority of us, the discipleship of a Melchidesek is simply not how we are brought forth... We are discipled under that priesthood by its normally ordained priests and Servants of God within the Church...

The headcovering of women in Church is a great blessing for the women... It is a part of the historical, not to mention Biblical, practice of the Faith of Christ... If you are interested in pursuing an understanding of this, spend some time hanging out with pious women who do so, and then talk with them about it...

And yes, it can devolve into a pharisitic practice of shaming women who do not cover their heads in Church... But it should not so devolve...

Arsenios

ps - What Faith in the Old Country is your Mom?

What you're saying amounts to an exposition of lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi... and it's not wrong. But it doesn't apply equally to everything at all times for every person. What I'm objecting to is the idea that a woman who doesn't cover her head is somehow less of a Christian than a woman who does, simply because of this fact of head covering.

I'm also objecting to the idea of head covering as always a blessing when the issues around women's roles, power and so on are already very socially complex.

My mum was Catholic, but she hasn't been a regular churchgoer for a long time.

 

[creslaw]

Here's the thing though, hair length is culturally informed. In Greco-Roman culture of the time, short hair on men and long hair on women was the norm. But this is not a universal phenomenon. There's nothing inherently masculine about short hair and there's nothing inherently feminine about long hair--these are purely functions of culture. If you think otherwise, perhaps you'd like to let Samson know how not feminine he was on account of his long hair (which was necessitated by the lifelong vow to God he had).

Wasn't long hair the norm for Christian women until the 20th century ... at least that's the impression I get from the movies I've seen. When & why did it change I wonder.

I've always thought Samson's long hair was a sign of his special submission to God's will for his life.

I have seen it suggested that the wife's submission to her husband is symbolic of the Church's submission to Christ.

 

[Paidiske]

Nuns used to shave their heads, or cut their hair very short. But then, they wore veils. Whether those are interchangeable is probably in the eye of the beholder.

Marriage can be a metaphor for the relationship between Christ and the Church; and indeed St. Paul uses it that way. But, like all metaphors, it breaks down if pushed too far; and when a wife is expected to relate to a husband as if he were Christ, despite his humanity and fallibility, imo, that's pushed far too far.

 

[creslaw]

Nuns used to shave their heads, or cut their hair very short. But then, they wore veils. Whether those are interchangeable is probably in the eye of the beholder.

Marriage can be a metaphor for the relationship between Christ and the Church; and indeed St. Paul uses it that way. But, like all metaphors, it breaks down if pushed too far; and when a wife is expected to relate to a husband as if he were Christ, despite his humanity and fallibility, imo, that's pushed far too far.

Yes, we would not want to push the metaphor about chopping off hands and plucking out eyes too far, would we

I believe one's commitment to Jesus Christ must come before one's commitment to either husband or wife.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Wasn't long hair the norm for Christian women until the 20th century ... at least that's the impression I get from the movies I've seen. When & why did it change I wonder.

I've always thought Samson's long hair was a sign of his special submission to God's will for his life.

I have seen it suggested that the wife's submission to her husband is symbolic of the Church's submission to Christ.

Long hair on men was the norm during many periods of Western European society:

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Arsenios]

What you're saying amounts to an exposition of lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi... and it's not wrong.

I am simply speaking from my experience in the praxis of the Orthodox Catholic Faith... I do not know what a lex is, although I do drive an old Lexus...

But it doesn't apply equally to everything at all times for every person.

The Apostolic commandment of Christ was to walk their Faith into all the nations and disciple them... Discipling is the labor of imparting obedience to Christ to those willing to receive Him... It is what the historic Apostolic Churches do... And of course, this discipling needs to be tailored to each suppliant's particular needs...

What I'm objecting to is the idea that a woman who doesn't cover her head is somehow less of a Christian than a woman who does, simply because of this fact of head covering.

So youur concern is with this bare-headed-in-Church woman's status??? That she might be perceived as less of a Christian than she would be if she put on a scarf in Church?? Because some people think that a head covering imparts some kind of magical Christian powers?

Well, I'm on your side with that one!

I'm also objecting to the idea of head covering as always a blessing when the issues around women's roles, power and so on are already very socially complex.

Another social consideration... We need to concentrate our efforts away from such concerns, for they are but worldly... And in that focus, turn toward God in a profoundly repentant purity of heart... Fasting and with tears of contrition for our greivous sins... In this God-questing effort of soul and prayer, worldly powers and confused roles of women's concerns simply fall away and no longer matter - Same for men... Unless they marry and have children, of course, and then they should lose themselves in that endeavor and the self sacrifice that each spouse has for the other...

My mum was Catholic, but she hasn't been a regular churchgoer for a long time.

Was Vatican II a kind of poisoning pill for her as it was for so many others?

If she visits back home in the old country, does she then attend Services in her old Churches there? Or is she just kind of turned off to it all?

I imagine you are taking care of her now...

Yea or nay, od Bless You...

Arsenios

 

[Paidiske]

I am simply speaking from my experience in the praxis of the Orthodox Catholic Faith... I do not know what a lex is, although I do drive an old Lexus...

The maxim translates loosely as "the law of praying is the law of believing and living." Basically the idea that how we pray - our liturgies - shapes what we believe and how we live.

So youur concern is with this bare-headed-in-Church woman's status??? That she might be perceived as less of a Christian than she would be if she put on a scarf in Church?? Because some people think that a head covering imparts some kind of magical Christian powers?

Well, I'm on your side with that one!

Yes. As we've seen in this very thread.

Was Vatican II a kind of poisoning pill for her as it was for so many others?

If she visits back home in the old country, does she then attend Services in her old Churches there? Or is she just kind of turned off to it all?

I imagine you are taking care of her now...

Yea or nay, od Bless You...

Arsenios

Not at all. She saw the church handle domestic violence in her family very badly, and blame, shame and ostracise the victims. I think she's done with institutional religion now. I simply used her as an example of someone who, if she were to attend worship here, would not necessarily have shifted in her fundamental beliefs despite liturgical difference.

Fortunately for us both she is still healthy enough not to need much care from me (yet).

 

[Arsenios]

But...when a wife is expected to relate to a husband as if he were Christ,
despite his humanity and fallibility,
imo, that's pushed far too far.

Marriage is hard enough as it is...

Such a false expectation would make it impossible...

I know of no one who has that expectation...

If someone actually did, they would become homicidal, I should fear...

I mean, it would mean serious mental illness...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I have seen it suggested that the wife's submission to her husband is symbolic of the Church's submission to Christ.

The point is for marriage to be a reflection of the Marriage of the Lamb...
We do as best as we can...
Each household is as a miniature Church...
Prayers each night before bed as a family...
And each morning upon arising...
And the blessing of the food before eating together...
And fasting after supper until breakfast [break-fast] the next morning...

The idea is saturation in Christ as much as can be done...
Praying without ceasing throughout the day...
Loving one's neighbor as one's self...
Seeing strangers as Christ Himself...

It is a holy way of life that needs little and gives much...

It is hated by the demonic powers...

And beloved of the people of God...

Arsenios

 

[Paidiske]

Marriage is hard enough as it is...

Such a false expectation would make it impossible...

I know of no one who has that expectation...

I come across it quite a bit amongst more conservative/fundamentalist folk. The idea that a wife's submission to her husband should be as total, and as obedient, and so on, as the church's (ideal) submission to Christ.

I agree with you that it cannot healthily be so.

 

[Timahani]

I come across it quite a bit amongst more conservative/fundamentalist folk. The idea that a wife's submission to her husband should be as total, and as obedient, and so on, as the church's (ideal) submission to Christ.

I agree with you that it cannot healthily be so.

Thanks so much for your comments . I firmly believe that if your husband is truly submitted to the Lord Jesus then submission will not be a problem. For instance, if he is patient, kind, gentle, and has self control as we are taught then submission follows easily.

On the contrary we must remember that what works for one individual may not work for others! God created us unique. Some people are very shy, and submissive in nature. Some have God-given personalities that are more "leader-like" and outgoing in nature.

In sum, I think there is someone on Earth that is able to meet our individual needs. There are enough people in the world .....hugs.

 

[Timahani]

My Concern is, Why are we as Christians NOT on the same Page?
Are we not followers of the same Christ; followers of the same God?

Just some quick background information about me. I love to watch religious debates because it: strengthens my faith, helps me to answer hard questions, and allows me to pick the minds of others. I am not here to debate though, rather just to gain some basic understanding.

we all agree that inner holiness, love, charity, submission to Christ Jesus, is first.

#1) However, shouldn't our "beliefs in our heart, reflect outwardly in our appearance, and with our behavior?"

#2) When people see us, shouldn't they automatically " SEE CHRIST IN US"?

#3) Shouldn't our outer garments also represent Christ? Our whole purpose is dying to our selfish nature, and separating ourselves from worldliness, including its fashions!!!!

These are my main points for now! I think the Love Doctrine has overridden the holiness doctrine which clearly states: "Be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind"! Glory to God in the highest!