Christian Universalism within Revelations

[HSong]

Hi everyone. This is a thread where you can talk about Christian Universalism with regards to the Book of Revelations. This idea was inspired by the user Deafsilence from the "Daily Christian Universalist Verses" thread where they mentioned wanting a place to talk about the end times with respect to Universal Salvation through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Revelations: 22:14-15 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

The blessed are those who’s robes are washed with the blood of Jesus Christ. The people who believed in Christ Jesus with faith alone and who were saved before they died.

Those who die before believing in Jesus Christ go to Sheol, the realm of the dead. That’s the outside, the people who practice falsehoods, who believed a lie instead of believing in Jesus Christ.

So, Jesus will go to them and convince them to believe in Him.
Revelation 1:18: "I [Jesus] have the keys of Death and Hades."
Hades also translated as Sheol, the realm of the dead. He will keep convincing them until everyone believes in Him. He will keep convincing them until everyone has entered the city.

Psalm 16:10 You will not leave my soul in Sheol.
Psalm 86:13 For thy true love stands high above me; thou hast rescued my soul from the depths of Sheol.
Psalm 139:8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there.

The Lord promises that Sheol aka Hell aka Hades will be empty!

The previous chapter, Revelations 21:27 says “But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.”


This is true because every single person in existence will become clean by believing in Christ. Inside of believing in something detestable or false, they will believe in the truth, that Jesus Christ died for everyone’s sins!


Whose names will be written in the Lamb’s book of life? Everyone! As soon as someone believes in Christ with faith alone, as in saved, Jesus writes their name in this book. Christ Jesus will keep writing people’s names into this book until everyone’s names are in it!
As well, don’t forget later in Revelations 22:21 it says “The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.”.

Christ our Saviour has grace for all people, it will be with all as everyone received salvation. This is the same grace mentioned here:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

And here:

Heb. 2:9 "Jesus, was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."

Christ tasted death for everyone, the wages of sin, so everyone can be alive permanently in Heaven, the New Jerusalem.

 

[lsume]

Revelation’s was written for the servants of Christ.

Rev.1​

1. [1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

saved but still not with The Lord.

2Thes.1​

1. [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1Tim.4​

1. [10] For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

 

[Der Alte]

Hi everyone. This is a thread where you can talk about Christian Universalism with regards to the Book of Revelations. This idea was inspired by the user Deafsilence from the "Daily Christian Universalist Verses" thread where they mentioned wanting a place to talk about the end times with respect to Universal Salvation through faith alone in Jesus Christ.
Revelations: 22:14-15 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
The blessed are those who’s robes are washed with the blood of Jesus Christ. The people who believed in Christ Jesus with faith alone and who were saved before they died.
Those who die before believing in Jesus Christ go to Sheol, the realm of the dead. That’s the outside, the people who practice falsehoods, who believed a lie instead of believing in Jesus Christ.
So, Jesus will go to them and convince them to believe in Him.
Revelation 1:18: "I [Jesus] have the keys of Death and Hades."
Hades also translated as Sheol, the realm of the dead. He will keep convincing them until everyone believes in Him. He will keep convincing them until everyone has entered the city.
Psalm 16:10 You will not leave my soul in Sheol.
Psalm 86:13 For thy true love stands high above me; thou hast rescued my soul from the depths of Sheol.
Psalm 139:8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there.
The Lord promises that Sheol aka Hell aka Hades will be empty!
The previous chapter, Revelations 21:27 says “But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.”
This is true because every single person in existence will become clean by believing in Christ. Inside of believing in something detestable or false, they will believe in the truth, that Jesus Christ died for everyone’s sins!
Whose names will be written in the Lamb’s book of life? Everyone! As soon as someone believes in Christ with faith alone, as in saved, Jesus writes their name in this book. Christ Jesus will keep writing people’s names into this book until everyone’s names are in it!
As well, don’t forget later in Revelations 22:21 it says “The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.”.
Christ our Saviour has grace for all people, it will be with all as everyone received salvation. This is the same grace mentioned here:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people
And here:
Heb. 2:9 "Jesus, was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."
Christ tasted death for everyone, the wages of sin, so everyone can be alive permanently in Heaven, the New Jerusalem.

Standard out-of-context proof texts.

Revelation 21:4-5
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

Vs. 4 "no more death," vs. 5 "all things new."
=======

Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

But 4 vss, later in vs. 8, eight groups of sinners are thrown into the lake of fire [LOF] which is still called "second death."
If there is no more death after vs.4 then the 8 groups of sinners in the LOF do not die.
The last book, last chapter in the Bible, vs. 11

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Ten more vss. the end, no more death, no more salvation. Only "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still"

 

[HSong]

Revelation’s was written for the servants of Christ

All people will become servants of Christ. That is, they will all believe in Christ through faith alone and be saved. So, the book of Revelations is relevant for all of humanity, just like every other book in the Bible.

Isaiah 52:10"The Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and ALL the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God."

 

[Der Alte]

All people will become servants of Christ. That is, they will all believe in Christ through faith alone and be saved. So, the book of Revelations is relevant for all of humanity, just like every other book in the Bible.
Isaiah 52:10"The Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and ALL the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God."

There appears to be a double entendre' in this vs.

Isaiah 52:10 "The Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and ALL the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God."​

The Hebrew word translated "salvation" in Isaiah 52:10 is ישׁוע i.e Yeshua.
"All the ends of the earth shall see the Yeshua of our God."
ETA: Posted by HSong, "Isaiah 52:10 "The Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and ALL the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God."
This is very true. But there ain't no nations or ends of the earth in the grave, hades or sheol. And God's Yeshua will not be in the grave, hades or sheol for the inhabitants, thereof to see.

 

[Der Alte]

Revelation’s was written for the servants of Christ.

Rev.1​

1. [1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

saved but still not with The Lord.
2Thes.1

1. [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1Tim.4​

1. [10] For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

The word translated "destruction" in 2 Thes 1:9 is apollumi. This same word is used for the lost sheep found by the shepherd and the returned prodigal son. Neither of which were destroyed.
In 2 Th 1:9 apollumi cannot mean annihilated since it reads "apollumi from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power." Something that is destroyed, no longer exists, is not "from the presence" of anything.
@HSong You said "All people will become servants of Christ. " That ain't what the last chapter in Revelation says. Post #3 directly above.

 

[lsume]

The word translated "destruction" in 2 Thes 1:9 is apollumi. This same word is used for the lost sheep found by the shepherd and the returned prodigal son. Neither of which were destroyed.
In 2 Th 1:9 apollumi cannot mean annihilated since it reads "apollumi from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power." Something that is destroyed, no longer exists, is not "from the presence" of anything.
@HSong You said "All people will become servants of Christ. " That ain't what the last chapter in Revelation says. Post #3 directly above.

The destruction is the man of sin residing in everyone not yet freed by Christ.

 

[HSong]

The destruction is the man of sin residing in everyone not yet freed by Chris.

Yes, the wages of sin are destruction = death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal (aionion aka olam, pertaining to an age) life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are in the age of sin, death. Christ is the age of life.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, the wages of sin are destruction = death.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal (aionion aka olam, pertaining to an age) life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
We are in the age of sin, death. Christ is the age of life.

False information! "aionios" is an adjectives. Age is a noun. Adjectives cannot be translated as nouns. "Aionios is never translated age in the NT.
In the 1917 Jewish Publication Society [JPS] translation of the OT. "Olam" is always translated eternal/everlasting/for ever. Never age.
Link:

Jewish Bible (JPS 1917)

www.breslov.com

 

[HSong]

Someone today mentioned to me about a sun coming to the East? It’s interesting. I was just talking to another person recently who said something similar, about how if the sun comes to from the East it’s the end of the world. I haven’t heard of the concept until recently, but it seems to be a topic on a lot of people’s minds.



I think this verse is related to that?

Matthew 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Revelation 7:2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea:



I will also tell you this interesting thought that I’ve been thinking about. Ezekiel 38 “chief prince of Rus, Mesech” predicted President Putin of Russia, Moscow invading Ukraine. Wormwood references Chernobyl.

 

[Jipsah]

Wormwood references Chernobyl.

Actually chernobyl is mugwort, not wormwood. They are in the same family, though.

 

[Der Alte]

Someone today mentioned to me about a sun coming to the East? It’s interesting. I was just talking to another person recently who said something similar, about how if the sun comes to from the East it’s the end of the world. I haven’t heard of the concept until recently, but it seems to be a topic on a lot of people’s minds.
I think this verse is related to that?
Matthew 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Revelation 7:2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea:
I will also tell you this interesting thought that I’ve been thinking about. Ezekiel 38 “chief prince of Rus, Mesech” predicted President Putin of Russia, Moscow invading Ukraine. Wormwood references Chernobyl.

The sun has always risen in the East and set in the West.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Hi everyone. This is a thread where you can talk about Christian Universalism with regards to the Book of Revelations. This idea was inspired by the user Deafsilence from the "Daily Christian Universalist Verses" thread where they mentioned wanting a place to talk about the end times with respect to Universal Salvation through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Revelations: 22:14-15 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

The blessed are those who’s robes are washed with the blood of Jesus Christ. The people who believed in Christ Jesus with faith alone and who were saved before they died.

Those who die before believing in Jesus Christ go to Sheol, the realm of the dead. That’s the outside, the people who practice falsehoods, who believed a lie instead of believing in Jesus Christ.

So, Jesus will go to them and convince them to believe in Him.
Revelation 1:18: "I [Jesus] have the keys of Death and Hades."
Hades also translated as Sheol, the realm of the dead. He will keep convincing them until everyone believes in Him. He will keep convincing them until everyone has entered the city.

Psalm 16:10 You will not leave my soul in Sheol.
Psalm 86:13 For thy true love stands high above me; thou hast rescued my soul from the depths of Sheol.
Psalm 139:8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there.

The Lord promises that Sheol aka Hell aka Hades will be empty!

The previous chapter, Revelations 21:27 says “But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.”


This is true because every single person in existence will become clean by believing in Christ. Inside of believing in something detestable or false, they will believe in the truth, that Jesus Christ died for everyone’s sins!


Whose names will be written in the Lamb’s book of life? Everyone! As soon as someone believes in Christ with faith alone, as in saved, Jesus writes their name in this book. Christ Jesus will keep writing people’s names into this book until everyone’s names are in it!
As well, don’t forget later in Revelations 22:21 it says “The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.”.

Christ our Saviour has grace for all people, it will be with all as everyone received salvation. This is the same grace mentioned here:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

And here:

Heb. 2:9 "Jesus, was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."

Christ tasted death for everyone, the wages of sin, so everyone can be alive permanently in Heaven, the New Jerusalem.

I also am in the UR camp but I have a slightly different approach. I see the Rev 22 and those who are outside the new Jerusalem and can’t go in as those who while in the mortal body did not follow Yahweh and are then thrown into the lake of fire and after they are purified and have trusted in Jesus,live out forever on the new earth with bodies like Adam had they have earthly bodies that never die. The second death is the death of the soul, which is what they made in the mortal body, they basically are a blank slate just like when Adam was created. The reason I think this is probable is because from Adam till Jesus if one follows Yahweh they were looking for a promise land and that is what Yahweh said they would get if they followed him. Then with Jesus he said if we would follow him and die to self we would be part of his family, we are to reign and rule with Jesus and he will become elohim with him . To me it’s clear that only those who acknowledge Jesus before men he will acknowledge to the Father, I don’t see that offer made to anyone else only those who follow him while in the mortal body. That’s why I don’t believe that all go to heaven only those who followed Yahweh the rest are those who live on the new earth but can’t go into the new Jerusalem. Maybe later on Yahweh will have a way that they could gain access to heaven but we have no way of knowing what Yahweh has planned for the ages to come. To me this explains those who are outside the new Jerusalem and can’t go in.

 

[HSong]

I also am in the UR camp

Hmmm... interesting perspective. For me, the important thing about analyzing Revelations is looking at it with a UR mindset. There's a lot going on in the book, so personally, I find it's worth discussing all possibilities and approaches as long as UR remains true. Your approach is a good explanation to why there are people outside of New Jerusalem who can't go in though.

 

[Der Alte]

I also am in the UR camp but I have a slightly different approach. I see the Rev 22 and those who are outside the new Jerusalem and can’t go in as those who while in the mortal body did not follow Yahweh and are then thrown into the lake of fire and after they are purified and have trusted in Jesus,live out forever on the new earth with bodies like Adam had they have earthly bodies that never die. The second death is the death of the soul, which is what they made in the mortal body, they basically are a blank slate just like when Adam was created. The reason I think this is probable is because from Adam till Jesus if one follows Yahweh they were looking for a promise land and that is what Yahweh said they would get if they followed him. Then with Jesus he said if we would follow him and die to self we would be part of his family, we are to reign and rule with Jesus and he will become elohim with him . To me it’s clear that only those who acknowledge Jesus before men he will acknowledge to the Father, I don’t see that offer made to anyone else only those who follow him while in the mortal body. That’s why I don’t believe that all go to heaven only those who followed Yahweh the rest are those who live on the new earth but can’t go into the new Jerusalem. Maybe later on Yahweh will have a way that they could gain access to heaven but we have no way of knowing what Yahweh has planned for the ages to come. To me this explains those who are outside the new Jerusalem and can’t go in.

Too bad the book of Revelations does not support this view.

 

[Der Alte]

The destruction is the man of sin residing in everyone not yet freed by Christ.

Scripture?

 

[lsume]

2Thes.2​

1. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Christ must reveal him.

 

[HSong]

Death Penalty Capital Punishment



What are the wages for 100 sins? Death. What are the wages for 10 sins? Death. What is the wage for even one sin? Death.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.



The wage for any amount of sin is death. But when you believe in Jesus Christ, all of your sins are washed away, so even though you may die, you will live. Even when you descend in Sheol, because you were saved, you have the Holy Spirit inside of you by simply believing in Christ Jesus as your Savior, you will not be trapped there and you will go to Heaven with permanent life.

1 Corinthians 15:22 "In Christ shall all be made alive"



Who is someone that will die? In Ezekiel 38, the Lord tells us that the Chief Prince of Rus, Mesech, who refers to the President of Russia, Moscow, will die in the open field. Why? Because this chief prince has sin. One evil President I can imagine is the current President of Russia, Moscow, Vladmir Putin. He has committed many war crimes when attacking Ukraine. Working as a KGB officer, he’s killed many people.

Ezekiel 38:1-39:29

The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him and say, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. And I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great host, all of them with buckler and shield, wielding swords. Persia, Cush, and Put are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; ...

Isaiah 14:9 Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.



The Russian military has kidnapped people, sexually assaulted, raped and tortured civilians. These things that they have done are all evil. The Lord is against violence. And the wages for these sins is death!

Isaiah 3:11 Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him, for what his hands have dealt out shall be done to him.



So even though there have been people who have suffered the death penalty, or capital punishment, they go to Sheol, and Christ will come to Sheol and make everyone there believe in Christ and be given permanent life!

Luke 15:4: "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?"



Thus, everyone will eventually realize that they have these sins and will be convinced to believe in Jesus Christ and be saved, this is true.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Death Penalty Capital Punishment



What are the wages for 100 sins? Death. What are the wages for 10 sins? Death. What is the wage for even one sin? Death.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.



The wage for any amount of sin is death. But when you believe in Jesus Christ, all of your sins are washed away, so even though you may die, you will live. Even when you descend in Sheol, because you were saved, you have the Holy Spirit inside of you by simply believing in Christ Jesus as your Savior, you will not be trapped there and you will go to Heaven with permanent life.

1 Corinthians 15:22 "In Christ shall all be made alive"



Who is someone that will die? In Ezekiel 38, the Lord tells us that the Chief Prince of Rus, Mesech, who refers to the President of Russia, Moscow, will die in the open field. Why? Because this chief prince has sin. One evil President I can imagine is the current President of Russia, Moscow, Vladmir Putin. He has committed many war crimes when attacking Ukraine. Working as a KGB officer, he’s killed many people.

Ezekiel 38:1-39:29

The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him and say, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. And I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great host, all of them with buckler and shield, wielding swords. Persia, Cush, and Put are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; ...

Isaiah 14:9 Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.



The Russian military has kidnapped people, sexually assaulted, raped and tortured civilians. These things that they have done are all evil. The Lord is against violence. And the wages for these sins is death!

Isaiah 3:11 Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him, for what his hands have dealt out shall be done to him.



So even though there have been people who have suffered the death penalty, or capital punishment, they go to Sheol, and Christ will come to Sheol and make everyone there believe in Christ and be given permanent life!

Luke 15:4: "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?"



Thus, everyone will eventually realize that they have these sins and will be convinced to believe in Jesus Christ and be saved, this is true.

The way understand Gods judgment in John 5:24 and any other verse on judgment is did you follow Jesus or not. We as those who have followed Jesus do not come under that judgment because we are or have followed Jesus ,but those who have not are judged and that judgment is never ending. The problem comes when someone lumps the judgment and the punishment all together, the punishment always has an end. Let me give a word picture of what this looks like ; If I never commit murder I never come under the judgment for murder, but someone who does commit murder comes under the judgment of murder, that judgment is never ending you can't go back in time and erase what has been done. If guilty then comes the punishment, the punishment is not never-ending once you have served out your punishment you are set free but you will always be a murder. Murder being a sin is like all sin, God is the only one who can forgive sin and if we confess our sin and repent he can make it as if we never sinned. That is why only those who follow Jesus are not under judgment , but those who do not are under judgment and then punishment. All through out the bible punishment was for correction, I just don't understand why so many people lump the judgment and punishment together other than tradition formed by bad translation.

 

[LW97Nils]

Lemme tell ya. I wish it was true. Could people still have a second chance after physical death? Technically yes, but we don't see it from the Rich Man. Had he show sorrow, could have found forgiveness? Yes, but it seems he was not able to, just like Esau. However, even if is true, that there would still be salvation during the Millenial Reign, how would this proof apocatastasis? I think it was a doctrine invented by Origen, but I could be just as wrong. Now, the Great White Throne is interesting, the language indicates that not everyone in the GWT Judgement will end up in the Lake of Fire, for otherwise it would not say "for whosoever was not found in the book of life"... however, it could also be limited to the people who were born into the Millenium. I do not have the answer yet.

Another point one could make apocatastasis would be Sodom being rebuilt according to Ezekiel 26, BUT this merely describes the city. Not the people.