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Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Hmm, Sep 22, 2021.

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  1. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

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    I agree, correction can be very painful. To the early church, God's "fire" was "wise" (Clement of Alexandria) in that it reveals and burns up all the selfish delusions and false identities we have acquired in our life. The "wood, hay and stubble" of this ignorance would be "burned off" but we ourselves would "be saved, yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:13-15. It is sin that is destroyed, not the sinner.

    Hell, from the early viewpoint then, was a difficult but redemptive journey to repentance and reconciliation. Hell was seen as painful, but not eternal and it had a restorative purpose.
     
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  2. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid I guess there's no passing this test! Supporter

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    Don't you mean to say "Hell, from an early viewpoint then..." rather than "the early viewpoint ..."?

    You guys keep using inflationary, exaggerated language to describe the supposed prevalence of U.R. in the first five centuries, but I'm not seeing it. Besides, truth isn't decided by the number of subscribers.
     
  3. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

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    As @Saint Steven and @MMXX have just said, the evidence is indirect, in books sold and videos watched because there aren't enough Christian universalist churches to allow an accurate pew count.
     
  4. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid I guess there's no passing this test! Supporter

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    Maybe, but I don't think the term 'indirect' (as you use it here) is exactly synonymous with 'anecdotal' (as MMXX uses it above).
     
  5. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Very good, an actual historical source the only problem is that is not what Aristotle said. I looked it up online. The first site did not have the phrase 'there is a difference between punishment (τιμωρια) and correction (κολασις),' in any form. The second said this,
    Aristotle Rhetoric Book 1 chapter 12[not 10]
    [17] But there is a difference between revenge and punishment; the latter is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer, the former in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction..
    Aristotle, Rhetoric, book 1
    It looks like the Hell No! crowd will believe anything online, without verifying it, as long as it supports their UR assumptions/presuppositions.
    Would you like to review the 26 verses I posted multiple times, which described/define "aionios" as "eternal,""for ever,""everlasting?" Here is a sample of three verses where Jesus, Himself, states that "aionios life" means "shall not perish." No, ifs, ands or buts.
    John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​
    In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
    John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​
    In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion life” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
    Now quote me some Aristotle or Ramelli that shows Jesus was wrong.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  6. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

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    Verbal constructs and juxtaposition.
     
  7. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The problem is that 1 Corinthians 3:9-17 does NOT refer to all mankind. It is addressed and refers only to "labourers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building." who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ, vss. 9-10. OBTW I have shown this several times but the Hell NO! crowd insists on quoting 1-2 verses out-of-context.
    Here is something Clement of Alexandria said,
    Clement of Alexandria Exhortation Against the Heathen Chap X
    And you know not that, of all truths, this is the truest, that the good and godly shall obtain the good reward, inasmuch as they held goodness in high esteem; while, on the other hand, the wicked shall receive meet punishment. For the author of evil, torment has been prepared; and so the prophet Zecharias threatens him: “He that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; lo, is not this a brand plucked from the fire?” (Zec_3:2) What an infatuated desire, then, for voluntary death is this, rooted in men’s minds! Why do they flee to this fatal brand, with which they shall be burned, when it is within their power to live nobly according to God, and not according to custom? For God bestows life freely; but evil custom, after our departure from this world, brings on the sinner unavailing remorse with punishment.
     
  8. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Here we go again with Bible verses from an unspecified translation. More than that, they are quoted by someone who insists on citations from the "Hell No!" crowd. More than THAT, the method of monolithic Bible quoting reinforces the notion that all Bibles are in agreement about "hell." Truth: all Bibles do not contain the word or concept of "hell," and what's not to like about that? What Christian would not shiver with delight on finding that they or their loved ones might not go to "hell" after all?
     
  9. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The Bible versions are irrelevant. I did/do not form my understanding on any English version. For anything which might be questioned I always go to the original languages.
    Had you bothered to actually read what I posted I included the Greek "aionios" and I showed how Jesus, three times paralleled "aionios life" with "shall not perish." If "aionios" means only an indeterminate age then Jesus could not say "shall not perish." There are 8 more verses where Jesus described/defines "aionios" and "eternal", "everlasting" etc. Care to read them?
    There are also 16 verses where other NT writers define "aionios." But you don't want to read them either.
    What's not to like about universal reconciliation? It ain't scriptural. I have never seen even one verse which unequivocally states that all mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death.
     
  10. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

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    Okay

    Okay
     
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  11. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Again, it largely depends on which Bible version you use and depend on. Imagine having read nothing but one of the Bibles on that list a page or two back, where "hell" never appears in the text. If you encountered ECT you would state that THAT "ain't scriptural." Yeah, I know: baseless speculation, I see it coming, so there, I've replied for you. You can thank me later.
     
  12. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

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    Human language is always imprecise to some extent, isn't it?
     
  13. MMXX

    MMXX Brian

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    What about heliogabalus peculiarities parabolous?
     
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  14. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Are you a modern Major General?
     
  15. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

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    That's easy for you to say.
     
  16. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    That's because...he's the very model of a modern Major General.
     
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  17. MMXX

    MMXX Brian

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    Nah. But for some reason that song started playing in my head after reading that post.
     
  18. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Did you even read my post? Evidently not. Once again, versions are irrelevant I don't rely on any version. I have been reading both Bible languages for more than 3 decades. So where the word "hell" does or does not occur is also irrelevant. What it might have meant on another continent, in another culture and language is equally irrelevant.
    In Israel, among the Jews, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of eternal, everlasting, unending fiery punishment for the unrighteous and they called it both sheol and Ge Hinnom. In the 225 BC LXX and the NT they are written as "hades" and "Ge Henna" respectively.
    In the Jewish Encyclopedia in the Gehenna article the JE refers to Gehenna as "hell."
    Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for 25 years +/- and He would have known what they believed about "hades" and "Ge Henna." So when Jesus said "hades" and "Ge Henna" His Jewish audience would have understood it as the place of punishment. Call it whatever you will. "Hell" is just as good as any other word.
    If you want to respond to me have the courtesy to actually read my post first.
     
  19. MMXX

    MMXX Brian

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    Bro, your repetitious shtick is getting as old as Moses' toeses and twice as corny.
     
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  20. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    So is yours amigo. When someone quotes my post and does not address anything in that post or misrepresents something in the post then it is quite evident they did not read it, i.e. comprehend, understand.
     
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