• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.
  7. There has been an addition to the announcement regarding unacceptable nick names. The phrase "Let's go Brandon" actually stands for a profanity and will be seen as a violation of the profanity rule in the future.

Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Hmm, Sep 22, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

    +991
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    It being a parable is actually a strong point to my argument, because parables were told didactically. Their intent was to teach about things that were not directly accessible. Ultimately what UR has to resolve in both Malachi and Matthew is that there are clearly two distinct groups based on their being wicked/righteous and each of these groups are sent to divergent eternal destinies. Matthew 25 is particularly damning because it is about the strongest teaching Jesus put forth about the final state of things. Both are about final judgment and present two completely distinct fates.

    Resolving this through invention of a doctrine of temporal punishment that doesn't reflect the passages themselves and then in desperation appealing to questioning word selections where context overwhelmingly indicates that this punishment is teleologic and final is little more than a fig leaf attempt to hold onto pet theologies in the face of contradictory Scripture.
     
  2. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

    +3,275
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    In Relationship
    Your "I have yet to see" is you interpreting the text.

    Not at all, aionios is a complex word and serious scholars have been cited by both sides probably but certainly in support of UR. You may dismiss what they say but that is not a refutation.
     
  3. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

    +991
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    While annihilationists may have moral objections to ECT, that's not necessarily a beginning point. Malachi is a strong annihilationist text, as it is didactic and about final judgment and is presented in a way that the natural understanding is utter destruction as chaff is consumed in the fire not eternally burning.

    As I have said, at present I have not been shown a verse that meets the basic criteria I laid out for saying the Bible teaches something. A didactic passage that is clearly about eschatology/afterlife where the doctrine of UR is central to the primary message of the passage itself.
     
  4. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

    +3,275
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    In Relationship
    I'm doomed then!
     
  5. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

    +991
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Yes, my interpreting the text in accordance to basic contextual criteria. If you believe there is a passage that meets these criteria, present it for discussion.
     
  6. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

    +991
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Complex word? Not particularly. And how many of these "serious scholars" were hostile to UR?
     
  7. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

    +3,275
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    In Relationship
    You miss my point. You were accusing others of interpretation but objectivity for yourself. It's all a matter of interpretation. The best we can do is to be as informed and open as we can.
     
  8. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

    +3,275
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    In Relationship
    I did say that the meaning of aionios has been the subject of a lot of study by serious scholars on both sides (probably) of the universalist argument. You can put "serious scholars" in quotes but they do exist. No one thinks things are particularly complex until they begin to learn about them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  9. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

    +3,275
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    In Relationship
    Okay, what context that relates to Corinthians 15:22 "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ" gives it a non-universalist meaning?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  10. MMXX

    MMXX Brian

    +4,798
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    It's probably more like not wanting to be branded as a heretic, than being hostile to UR.
     
  11. MMXX

    MMXX Brian

    +4,798
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    All I know is the preambles I've read so far in presentations of an annihilation (or whatever they want to call it like "dualistic conditional immortality") doctrine, is that ET the doctrine is immoral and God isn't a monster (or words to that effect).

    You and Der Alte both use a specific criteria you came up with, that you're certain can't be met, which automatically renders UR invalid for you. I'm sure there's probably several doctrines one can do that with.
     
  12. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

    +3,275
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    In Relationship
    I do hope God was aware of this minimum criteria before He created the universe otherwise it might disappear in a puff of logic and He'll have to start again.
     
  13. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

    +3,360
    Canada
    Anglican
    Married
    So long you, and others, insist that "aionios" means "endless" or "everlasting" there will be no satisfactory interpretation other than ECT. This is the beginning and the end of the story for you and there is no point in discussion.
     
  14. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

    +3,275
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    In Relationship
    Exactly.

    "’When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

    ’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

    ’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all."

    Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
     
  15. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,655
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    How much do you know about Oliver B. Breen?
     
  16. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,655
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    But I am the one who has NEVER said that you insulted me!
     
  17. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,655
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    YOU and Steve believe the same thing!

    Birds always flock together because there is safety in numbers.

    So far......I have not said one single thing about UR that incorrect!
    I have said several things which you do not agree with but that is two very different things.
     
  18. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +2,604
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I might disagree, but I skim your posts too much to say much.
     
  19. MMXX

    MMXX Brian

    +4,798
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    But why Steve and not Hmm? I think his feelings are hurt.
     
  20. MMXX

    MMXX Brian

    +4,798
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Probably because I haven't. But in general your feathers seem to get ruffled a lot.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...