Christian traditions, how close are we?

[chvysb350]

Over the last couple of years I have felt led toward gaining a greater understanding of the Jewish culture. It has opened my eyes to a lot of misunderstandings and misrepresentations brought on by our readiness to accept what "Christian tradition" has taught us. I am not saying that anything written in the bible is incorrect, but rather that our understanding has been heavily clouded by our lack insight into the people who wrote it. Is there anyone else out there who has done any research into our "roots".

 

[crawfish]

I haven't done any heavy research, but I have studied ancient Jewish culture some for that very reason. Reading the Midrash was quite illuminating (and amusing).

Do you have anything specific to discuss?

 

[Splayd]

I've spent years studying 1st Century Jewish culture to gain a better understanding of the NT and I basically agree. It's clear that our understanding and practice often differ markedly than that of the original writers and recipients.

When I first started to recognise this, it troubled me very deeply. As I've worked it through with God, I'm realising how little the things matter. The problem isn't the things themselves, but rather our tendency to put undue emphasis on them.

Consider communion for example. Are we meant to use leavened or unleavened bread, wine or juice? Is it meant to be shared once a week every week, every service, every day, once a year or just regularly? One cup, many cups, one loaf, little pieces?

There are answers to these questions and more, but what are they answers to? Often our question is simply "What did they do then?" Even then, many differ on their answer and most get it wrong. We get preoccupied with the form of our worship and lose focus of the substance of our worship, the purpose of our worship, the actual worship itself. I'm not saying the answers don't matter at all, but that they aren't what ultimately matters.

 

[- DRA -]

Over the last couple of years I have felt led toward gaining a greater understanding of the Jewish culture. It has opened my eyes to a lot of misunderstandings and misrepresentations brought on by our readiness to accept what "Christian tradition" has taught us. I am not saying that anything written in the bible is incorrect, but rather that our understanding has been heavily clouded by our lack insight into the people who wrote it. Is there anyone else out there who has done any research into our "roots".

I believe 2 Thessalonians 2:15 helps us understand which traditions we should focus on and follow.

My roots are from Gentile heritage. However, I can still "learn" from the O.T. writings (Rom. 15:4) and how the men/women of old either obeyed or did NOT obey God, and how God reacted. For sure, the Bible admonishes us to not follow in the footsteps of the unfaithful (1 Cor. 10:1-13).

Do you have specific issues you would like to discuss?

 

[chvysb350]

I don't have anything specific to discuss. If you do live by the spirit and not by the flesh, if you have been born again by the spirit and live by grace, then the Spirit himself will teach us. There are many "Christians" who still try to live by the law, and if you are going to bind yourself to the law, maybe you should realize how detailed the law was. Things were done a certain way at a certain time, for a reason. The Sabbath, for instance, was honored on the evening of the sixth day into the seventh day, by the Jewish calender. This was a very high priority law. We tend to do what we want on what ever day. Yet many won't have anything to do with someone who drinks or has been divorced.
I believe that this puts one more nail in the coffin for those who choose to live by the law. All the more reason to repent and come to the feet of Jesus!!!! Glory to God that He is full of grace in our ignorance! I give thanks to Him because He is my righteousness.
There is one more thing I'd like to add. It can be exciting to learn about God's chosen people and the great passion that comes with some of their traditions. I heard a rabbi talking about the Jewish new year, it just sounded cool. They do still get excited about God!

 

[elijahorao]

I don't have anything specific to discuss. If you do live by the spirit and not by the flesh, if you have been born again by the spirit and live by grace, then the Spirit himself will teach us. There are many "Christians" who still try to live by the law, and if you are going to bind yourself to the law, maybe you should realize how detailed the law was. Things were done a certain way at a certain time, for a reason. The Sabbath, for instance, was honored on the evening of the sixth day into the seventh day, by the Jewish calender. This was a very high priority law. We tend to do what we want on what ever day. Yet many won't have anything to do with someone who drinks or has been divorced.
I believe that this puts one more nail in the coffin for those who choose to live by the law. All the more reason to repent and come to the feet of Jesus!!!! Glory to God that He is full of grace in our ignorance! I give thanks to Him because He is my righteousness.
There is one more thing I'd like to add. It can be exciting to learn about God's chosen people and the great passion that comes with some of their traditions. I heard a rabbi talking about the Jewish new year, it just sounded cool. They do still get excited about God!

The weekly sabbath of the seventh day was a bad example of Jewish tradition, because it is not a law for jews exclusively. It sits square in the middle of the ten commandments which are for 'mankind' and have always and will always exist. A point that is noteworthy, is that The seventh day was declared 'holy' during creation week at The beginning BEFORE jews existed, AND BEFORE sin entered the world. Jesus as Messiah/Lamb of God undid the damage done by sin, but what Jesus did in dying for us did not undo the law of the ten commandments. It was a sin when Cain killed Able because the law "Thou shall not kill" obviously existed then. This demonstrates that the weekly sabbath (unlike the ceremonial sabbaths) was not instituted to deal with sin and therefore could not pass away along with the ceremonial atonement laws. As Jesus said; "The sabbath was made for man" (not Jews) It is obvious when you study all the other ten commands that they also were made for 'mankind' and not exclusively Jews. It is a popular error of secular christianity to dismiss the 'law of relationships/ten commandments' in order to justify their chosen 'iniquities'.
However, there is some value in studying the ceremonies that the Jews made into their traditions, because they point clearly to Christ, and make you wonder how it is that they did not recognise Him.
I would not be keen to 'do' those ceremonies however.

 

[Apollos1]

To elijahorao –

Looks like we have some “Judaizing” going on here…

Elijahorao said - The weekly sabbath of the seventh day… …is not a law for jews exclusively.

Well – yes it was.
WHO was the Sabbath given to? - Israel - Exodus 16:29, 31:16,31.
WHY was the Sabbath given? Because Israel had no rest in Egypt and God delivered them out of the land - Deut. 5:15
Only the Jews had the Law… cf. Romans 3:28-29.

Elijahorao said - A point that is noteworthy, is that The seventh day was declared 'holy' during creation week…

So what, the “sabbath” was not given until 2,000 years later.
Where was the Sabbath given? - At “Sinai” - Exodus 16, Exodus 20:8.
What was the Sabbath?– It was a SIGN between God and Israel Exodus - 20:12,20, 31:16,31, Deut. 5:15.

Elijahorao said - It was a sin when Cain killed Able because the law "Thou shall not kill" obviously existed then.

This only proves that murder was wrong at that time – not that the “10 commandments” existed per se – including the “sabbath” day. This is inductive reasoning.

Elijahorao said - "The sabbath was made for man" (not Jews)…

Apparently it was made for men… who were Jews.

Elijahorao said - It is obvious when you study all the other ten commands that they also were made for 'mankind' and not exclusively Jews.

The passages I have provided above teach that the Old covenant that included the “TC” was given to the Jews only. There is a new covenant for today with deeper and more spiritually based principles than those engraved in stone, based on better promises and a better sacrifice. This covenant is for all men!

Elijahorao said - It is a popular error of secular christianity to dismiss the 'law of relationships/ten commandments' in order to justify their chosen 'iniquities'.

It is popular error by those that worship the “10 commandments” and worship the “sabbath” to claim what you do. None of you teach is supported by scripture – the old or new. Would have us fall from grace and place a yoke of burden upon us no (Jewish) man could ever bear??

I do not want to hi-jack this thread any more than you and I have, so if you desire to discuss these matters further, start a thread and invite me over. Thankx!

 

[elijahorao]

The weekly sabbath of the seventh day was a bad example of Jewish tradition, because it is not a law for jews exclusively. It sits square in the middle of the ten commandments which are for 'mankind' and have always and will always exist. A point that is noteworthy, is that The seventh day was declared 'holy' during creation week at The beginning BEFORE jews existed, AND BEFORE sin entered the world. Jesus as Messiah/Lamb of God undid the damage done by sin, but what Jesus did in dying for us did not undo the law of the ten commandments. It was a sin when Cain killed Able because the law "Thou shall not kill" obviously existed then. This demonstrates that the weekly sabbath (unlike the ceremonial sabbaths) was not instituted to deal with sin and therefore could not pass away along with the ceremonial atonement laws. As Jesus said; "The sabbath was made for man" (not Jews) It is obvious when you study all the other ten commands that they also were made for 'mankind' and not exclusively Jews. It is a popular error of secular christianity to dismiss the 'law of relationships/ten commandments' in order to justify their chosen 'iniquities'.
However, there is some value in studying the ceremonies that the Jews made into their traditions, because they point clearly to Christ, and make you wonder how it is that they did not recognise Him.
I would not be keen to 'do' those ceremonies however.

Apollos1 at the outset of your response to my post you chose to not address that the sabbath was holy from the first seventh day on. What you pointed out was that it was given LATER to the children of Israel as they came out and you quoted Exodus 16:29 which says; "
Exodus, chapter 16:8 "And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?"

29 "See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day."

By this we see that the law existed BEFORE Sinia. Naturaly it was wrong for Cain to murder Abel, the commandment "Thou shall not murder" is a 'given' and what we learn from this is that 'moral law' should not have to be written in order to be recognised, but the moral condition of the children of Israel was so corrupted that they needed it written in order to recognise it as an offence either against God or against mankind.

Is God a waster of words? Why bother mentioning the holiness of the seventh day at creation to mankind if He had no intention for man to honour it? Also, it is unrealistic to tie weekly sabbathkeeping into atonement, because the weekly sabbath began before sin entered the world and atonement was needed.
As for me 'judaizing' (as you say) and hijacking this thread (as you imply). Didn't you notice this input;
"However, there is some value in studying the ceremonies that the Jews made into their traditions, because they point clearly to Christ, and make you wonder how it is that they did not recognise Him.
I would not be keen to 'do' those ceremonies however."?

I did not intend hijacking, I intended contributing and the reason I contributed at modest length on the sabbath factor was because I knew it was poorly understood by many so I gave appropriate 'in context' input in order to demonstrate where I was coming from.
To claim that I "worship the ten commandments and worship the sabbath" is preposterous. How could anyone with any sense of comprehension 'worship' anything other than Our Creator if they keep the ten commandments? We have a command against idolatry in command number 2 and an instruction to 'remember' Our Creator in commandment 4. By the way, this demonstrates that the fourth commandment is for all flesh, because all flesh is created. How do you deal with Isaiah 66:23? Aren't you going to be a citizen of The New heavens and New earth? If you are, which company will you be in? Verse 23 or verse 24?
Perhaps you have a problem with the company in Revelation 14:12. Are they 'judaizers'?
Come on, be fair. I made a contribution with what I believe to be worthy input and some may find it worth looking into properly.
As I said before, there is a lot to be learned from studying the things the jews were told to practice that ultimately became their traditions, but I wouldn't want to 'DO' them.

 

[Apollos1]

Elijahorao –

I did not mean to suggest that you inteneded or single-handedly hijack this thread. You had plenty of help from me. But because you did not choose to take this discussion to a separate thread as I suggested, I feel I have no choice but to continue with you here…

Eli said - Apollos1 at the outset of your response to my post you chose to not address that the sabbath was holy from the first seventh day on.

But I did address that. Although the 7th day of the week was sanctified by God in Genesis 2:3, I showed that the “sabbath” was not given for 2,000 years - until Israel came to Sinai. See Exodus 16, Exodus 20:8. Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was NOT holy from the first 7th day on. If you have any proof, please present that for me. That’s all I ask.

I also gave collaborating scripture that showed what the “sabbath” was – a SIGN beyween God and Israel, Exodus - 20:12,20, 31:16,31, Deut. 5:15. Israel did not exist for that 2,000 years either. Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was not around BEFORE Israel was around.


Eli said - What you pointed out was that it was given LATER to the children of Israel as they came out and you quoted Exodus 16:29 which says; "
Exodus, chapter 16:8 "And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?"

Exodus 16:29 shows just that… the “sabbath” was given LATER – at Sinai, not in Genesis. It was not given BEFORE this time. What passage can you use to prove the “sabbath” was given BEFORE Sinai?? You can make all the inferences you want about God “sanctifying” the 7th day in Genesis, but you won’t find the “sabbath” until you get to Sinai. God set the 7th day apart in Genesis for use at a LATER time – at Sinai !

Your inference to “How long…” has no context back to Genesis or to any prior observance of the “sabbath”. Moses had just given the “sabbath” to Israel – see Exodus 16:23, 26. Some of the people violated it in verse 27. Verse 28 shows God asking “How long…?” will they refuse to obey it.

Eli said - By this we see that the law existed BEFORE Sinia. Naturaly it was wrong for Cain to murder Abel, the commandment "Thou shall not murder" is a 'given' and what we learn from this is that 'moral law' should not have to be written in order to be recognised, but the moral condition of the children of Israel was so corrupted that they needed it written in order to recognise it as an offence either against God or against mankind.

Your first remark is the one without any contextual bearing. Your next remark is but rationalization created in the attempt to justify your position that “the Law” was given before this time. Unfortunately you do not have even ONE scripture to back this thinking up. Whatever laws, moral or otherwise, that may have been given to man to follow by God before Sinai, we know that the “TC” law was given to Israel only at Sinai – cf. Deut. 5:1-15 with emphasis here on verses 1-4. You have only conjecture.

Eli said - Is God a waster of words? Why bother mentioning the holiness of the seventh day at creation to mankind if He had no intention for man to honour it?

I don’t think God wastes words… or time. But do you have an applicable point here? I believe God’s intention was to use the 7th day at a later time – this is why God set it apart (sanctified it). We see that come to fruition at Sinai. We do not see a sabbath at any sooner time. So does God waste time?

Eli said - Also, it is unrealistic to tie weekly sabbathkeeping into atonement, because the weekly sabbath began before sin entered the world and atonement was needed.

This begs the question. You have given ZERO proof from scripture that the “weekly sabbath” began before sin entred the world. Can you prove WHEN you think the “sabbath” actually was given? If so, we can discuss your other point here.

Eli said - As for me 'judaizing' (as you say)…

Let’s repeat some of the things you mentioned in that first post of yours…
-the ten commandments which are for 'mankind' and have always and will always exist.
-but what Jesus did in dying for us did not undo the law of the ten commandments.
-when Cain killed Able because the law "Thou shall not kill" obviously existed then.
-This demonstrates that the weekly sabbath (unlike the ceremonial sabbaths) was not instituted to deal with sin and therefore could not pass away along with the ceremonial atonement laws.
-"The sabbath was made for man" (not Jews)
-It is obvious when you study all the other ten commands that they also were made for 'mankind' and not exclusively Jews.
You very much infer that we should be following the “TC” law today, that the “TC” law did not ever cease for all men to observe, and that all should observe the “sabbath” today. My accusation of your “Judaizing” seems accurate enough to me. Seems to me you want to mix Judaism and Christianity – not unlike those read about in Acts 15.

Eli said - To claim that I "worship the ten commandments and worship the sabbath" is preposterous. How could anyone with any sense of comprehension 'worship' anything other than Our Creator if they keep the ten commandments?

Bear with me here. I believe you have a misplaced priority and misplaced emphasis on the “TC” law and the “sabbath” it contains. These two items have become the two things “religious” items that you endeavor to preserve and promote. Your focus of study is on these two items and why man today MUST have and observe them. You have placed these two items on a level of highesy importance, even above above God and the remainder of His will – although you believe them to be God’s will. These reasons are why I say that you “worship” the “sabbath” – the majority of your religious effort and its end result is to maintain these –2- items and convert all men to them today. They are your “idols” !

Eli said - How do you deal with Isaiah 66:23?

In a word… the worship of God at a future time (which I believe is the context of the verse), is expressed in OT terms so that the audience of Isaiah (the Jews) would more fully appreciate that God will always be worshipped and worshipped acceptably even after their ceremonial law and temple service are abolished.

Eli said - Perhaps you have a problem with the company in Revelation 14:12. Are they 'judaizers'?

I have no problem with them. The word “commandments” does not always refer to the “Ten” commandments of the OLD covenant as you are disposed to think. This is but more proof that your “idols” cause you to have a skewed view of the scriptures. You can not see anything else.

Eli said - Come on, be fair. I made a contribution with what I bEli saideve to be worthy input and some may find it worth looking into properly.

Given the amount of scriptural proof you have (not) presented for your position in this discussion, I think I have been quite fair.

Eli said - As I said before, there is a lot to be learned from studying the things the jews were told to practice that ultimately became their traditions, but I wouldn't want to 'DO' them.

Unless I miss my guess, you are saying that the “ceremonial” aspects of the Law have passed away, but the “moral” aspects remain – the “moral” aspects being the “TC” and the “sabbath”. I will tell you that NO aspects of “the Law” remain today for any man anywhere. Christ died wanting to establish a NEW covenant with all men. The old covenant, established only with the Jews, has no place in God’s providence today. The ceremonial/moral aspects of that OLD covenant are irrelevant now. This means there is no “sabbath” for anyone today – but there is a “rest” promised to all of the faithful in Christ.

So be a "Gideon" and tear your idols down.........

 

[elijahorao]

Elijahorao –

I did not mean to suggest that you inteneded or single-handedly hijack this thread. You had plenty of help from me. But because you did not choose to take this discussion to a separate thread as I suggested, I feel I have no choice but to continue with you here…

Eli said - Apollos1 at the outset of your response to my post you chose to not address that the sabbath was holy from the first seventh day on.

But I did address that. Although the 7th day of the week was sanctified by God in Genesis 2:3, I showed that the “sabbath” was not given for 2,000 years - until Israel came to Sinai. See Exodus 16, Exodus 20:8. Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was NOT holy from the first 7th day on. If you have any proof, please present that for me. That’s all I ask.

I also gave collaborating scripture that showed what the “sabbath” was – a SIGN beyween God and Israel, Exodus - 20:12,20, 31:16,31, Deut. 5:15. Israel did not exist for that 2,000 years either. Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was not around BEFORE Israel was around.


Eli said - What you pointed out was that it was given LATER to the children of Israel as they came out and you quoted Exodus 16:29 which says; "
Exodus, chapter 16:8 "And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?"

Exodus 16:29 shows just that… the “sabbath” was given LATER – at Sinai, not in Genesis. It was not given BEFORE this time. What passage can you use to prove the “sabbath” was given BEFORE Sinai?? You can make all the inferences you want about God “sanctifying” the 7th day in Genesis, but you won’t find the “sabbath” until you get to Sinai. God set the 7th day apart in Genesis for use at a LATER time – at Sinai !

Your inference to “How long…” has no context back to Genesis or to any prior observance of the “sabbath”. Moses had just given the “sabbath” to Israel – see Exodus 16:23, 26. Some of the people violated it in verse 27. Verse 28 shows God asking “How long…?” will they refuse to obey it.

Eli said - By this we see that the law existed BEFORE Sinia. Naturaly it was wrong for Cain to murder Abel, the commandment "Thou shall not murder" is a 'given' and what we learn from this is that 'moral law' should not have to be written in order to be recognised, but the moral condition of the children of Israel was so corrupted that they needed it written in order to recognise it as an offence either against God or against mankind.

Your first remark is the one without any contextual bearing. Your next remark is but rationalization created in the attempt to justify your position that “the Law” was given before this time. Unfortunately you do not have even ONE scripture to back this thinking up. Whatever laws, moral or otherwise, that may have been given to man to follow by God before Sinai, we know that the “TC” law was given to Israel only at Sinai – cf. Deut. 5:1-15 with emphasis here on verses 1-4. You have only conjecture.

Eli said - Is God a waster of words? Why bother mentioning the holiness of the seventh day at creation to mankind if He had no intention for man to honour it?

I don’t think God wastes words… or time. But do you have an applicable point here? I believe God’s intention was to use the 7th day at a later time – this is why God set it apart (sanctified it). We see that come to fruition at Sinai. We do not see a sabbath at any sooner time. So does God waste time?

Eli said - Also, it is unrealistic to tie weekly sabbathkeeping into atonement, because the weekly sabbath began before sin entered the world and atonement was needed.

This begs the question. You have given ZERO proof from scripture that the “weekly sabbath” began before sin entred the world. Can you prove WHEN you think the “sabbath” actually was given? If so, we can discuss your other point here.

Eli said - As for me 'judaizing' (as you say)…

Let’s repeat some of the things you mentioned in that first post of yours…
-the ten commandments which are for 'mankind' and have always and will always exist.
-but what Jesus did in dying for us did not undo the law of the ten commandments.
-when Cain killed Able because the law "Thou shall not kill" obviously existed then.
-This demonstrates that the weekly sabbath (unlike the ceremonial sabbaths) was not instituted to deal with sin and therefore could not pass away along with the ceremonial atonement laws.
-"The sabbath was made for man" (not Jews)
-It is obvious when you study all the other ten commands that they also were made for 'mankind' and not exclusively Jews.
You very much infer that we should be following the “TC” law today, that the “TC” law did not ever cease for all men to observe, and that all should observe the “sabbath” today. My accusation of your “Judaizing” seems accurate enough to me. Seems to me you want to mix Judaism and Christianity – not unlike those read about in Acts 15.

Eli said - To claim that I "worship the ten commandments and worship the sabbath" is preposterous. How could anyone with any sense of comprehension 'worship' anything other than Our Creator if they keep the ten commandments?

Bear with me here. I believe you have a misplaced priority and misplaced emphasis on the “TC” law and the “sabbath” it contains. These two items have become the two things “religious” items that you endeavor to preserve and promote. Your focus of study is on these two items and why man today MUST have and observe them. You have placed these two items on a level of highesy importance, even above above God and the remainder of His will – although you believe them to be God’s will. These reasons are why I say that you “worship” the “sabbath” – the majority of your religious effort and its end result is to maintain these –2- items and convert all men to them today. They are your “idols” !

Eli said - How do you deal with Isaiah 66:23?

In a word… the worship of God at a future time (which I believe is the context of the verse), is expressed in OT terms so that the audience of Isaiah (the Jews) would more fully appreciate that God will always be worshipped and worshipped acceptably even after their ceremonial law and temple service are abolished.

Eli said - Perhaps you have a problem with the company in Revelation 14:12. Are they 'judaizers'?

I have no problem with them. The word “commandments” does not always refer to the “Ten” commandments of the OLD covenant as you are disposed to think. This is but more proof that your “idols” cause you to have a skewed view of the scriptures. You can not see anything else.

Eli said - Come on, be fair. I made a contribution with what I bEli saideve to be worthy input and some may find it worth looking into properly.

Given the amount of scriptural proof you have (not) presented for your position in this discussion, I think I have been quite fair.

Eli said - As I said before, there is a lot to be learned from studying the things the jews were told to practice that ultimately became their traditions, but I wouldn't want to 'DO' them.

Unless I miss my guess, you are saying that the “ceremonial” aspects of the Law have passed away, but the “moral” aspects remain – the “moral” aspects being the “TC” and the “sabbath”. I will tell you that NO aspects of “the Law” remain today for any man anywhere. Christ died wanting to establish a NEW covenant with all men. The old covenant, established only with the Jews, has no place in God’s providence today. The ceremonial/moral aspects of that OLD covenant are irrelevant now. This means there is no “sabbath” for anyone today – but there is a “rest” promised to all of the faithful in Christ.

So be a "Gideon" and tear your idols down.........

not worth it

 

[crawfish]

The weekly sabbath of the seventh day was a bad example of Jewish tradition, because it is not a law for jews exclusively. It sits square in the middle of the ten commandments which are for 'mankind' and have always and will always exist. A point that is noteworthy, is that The seventh day was declared 'holy' during creation week at The beginning BEFORE jews existed, AND BEFORE sin entered the world. Jesus as Messiah/Lamb of God undid the damage done by sin, but what Jesus did in dying for us did not undo the law of the ten commandments. It was a sin when Cain killed Able because the law "Thou shall not kill" obviously existed then. This demonstrates that the weekly sabbath (unlike the ceremonial sabbaths) was not instituted to deal with sin and therefore could not pass away along with the ceremonial atonement laws. As Jesus said; "The sabbath was made for man" (not Jews) It is obvious when you study all the other ten commands that they also were made for 'mankind' and not exclusively Jews. It is a popular error of secular christianity to dismiss the 'law of relationships/ten commandments' in order to justify their chosen 'iniquities'.
However, there is some value in studying the ceremonies that the Jews made into their traditions, because they point clearly to Christ, and make you wonder how it is that they did not recognise Him.
I would not be keen to 'do' those ceremonies however.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. Romans 14 states pretty unquivicably that celebration of the Sabbath is an issue of "personal faith" and not one of law:

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

The command to honor the Sabbath day and keep it holy was given to Israel at a specific point in time. Perhaps some had honored it as a statement of "personal faith" before, but it did not become a matter of "corporate" faith until Moses came down from Sinai. And, as I mentioned earlier, with the new covenant the honoring of the Sabbath has again become a personal matter.

 

[elijahorao]

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. Romans 14 states pretty unquivicably that celebration of the Sabbath is an issue of "personal faith" and not one of law:



The command to honor the Sabbath day and keep it holy was given to Israel at a specific point in time. Perhaps some had honored it as a statement of "personal faith" before, but it did not become a matter of "corporate" faith until Moses came down from Sinai. And, as I mentioned earlier, with the new covenant the honoring of the Sabbath has again become a personal matter.

MATHEW 5:17": Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

"18": For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."


Is all fulfilled???

There is only one law that has been taken away/fulfilled and it is mentioned here in HEBREWS 10;
1": For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

"2": For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

"3": But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

"4": For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

"5": Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

"6": In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

"7": Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

"8": Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

"9": Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

"10": By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

"11": And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:"

The law concerning relationship conduct remains as confirmed here in;
James, chapter 2



"1": My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

"2": For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

"3": And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

"4": Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

"5": Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

"6": But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

"7": Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

"8": If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

"9": But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

"10": For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

"11": For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

"12": So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

"13": For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

"14": What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

"15": If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

"16": And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

"17": Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

"18": Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

"19": Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

"20": But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

"21": Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

"22": Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

"23": And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

"24": Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

"25": Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

"26": For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. "

You see then that relationship law NEVER ENDS.

Can't you see the difference between the ceremonial laws which were a shadow of Jesus' atonement for us and the ten commandments which are guidlines about how we treat humans and God?

 

[crawfish]

Then you have a conflict, because Paul states in no uncertain terms that the Gentiles are not required to honor the Sabbath.

I believe that Jesus' death and resurrection were the fulfillment of the law. I also believe that the Sermon on the Mount was not a statement of law but a precursor to the concept of grace; Jesus is showing the insufficiency of trying to live a perfect life under the law; how can keeping the letter of the law save you if the heart isn't right?

 

[elijahorao]

Then you have a conflict, because Paul states in no uncertain terms that the Gentiles are not required to honor the Sabbath.

I believe that Jesus' death and resurrection were the fulfillment of the law. I also believe that the Sermon on the Mount was not a statement of law but a precursor to the concept of grace; Jesus is showing the insufficiency of trying to live a perfect life under the law; how can keeping the letter of the law save you if the heart isn't right?

"Paul states in no uncertain terms that the Gentiles are not required to honor the Sabbath."????????

SCRIPTURE PLEASE!!!!

 

[elijahorao]

You are failing to recognise TWO characteristics of 'saved' 'converted' people.
1. They are saved by God's grace through Jesus and Jesus only
2. Their 'conduct' is a living testimony of their salvation.

 

[Apollos1]

"Paul states in no uncertain terms that the Gentiles are not required to honor the Sabbath."????????

SCRIPTURE PLEASE!!!!

If you will notice, I have handily proven above that the sabbath was not given until Israel came to Sinai, and that it was a SIGN between God and Israel, because Israel had no rest in Egypt,

Why don't you please answer my points BEFORE you start requesting scripture from anyone?

The Gentiles NEVER were required to observe ANY sabbath at ANY time.

Today, no one is required to observe any sabbath day.

So........... scriptures please!!!

 

[Apollos1]

MATHEW 5:17 - “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18: “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Q: Is all fulfilled???

Answer: Yes!

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and the prophets in verse 17. In verse 18 Jesus said it would take until heaven and earth passed away for even one jot or tittle to pass from the law – until He fullfilled ALL.

Luke 24:44 - "And he said unto them, These are my
words which I spake unto you, while I was yet withyou,
that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are
written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the
psalms, concerning me."

Jesus said He had fullfilled ALL. Thus, with all things
having been fulfilled the Law and the prophets were
ready to pass away. This happened at "the cross".

 

[elijahorao]

"Paul states in no uncertain terms that the Gentiles are not required to honor the Sabbath."????????

SCRIPTURE PLEASE!!!!

If you will notice, I have handily proven above that the sabbath was not given until Israel came to Sinai, and that it was a SIGN between God and Israel, because Israel had no rest in Egypt,

Why don't you please answer my points BEFORE you start requesting scripture from anyone?

The Gentiles NEVER were required to observe ANY sabbath at ANY time.

Today, no one is required to observe any sabbath day.

So........... scriptures please!!!

You 'proved' nothing. Just because you 'convinced' yourself, does not constitute 'proof'. 'Proof' when speaking of theological things is demonstrated with scripture 'in context'.

You ask me for scripture?
Sure!
One word "REMEMBER"
In the context of sabbath keeping, where is the scripture for 'FORGET'?

 

[elijahorao]

MATHEW 5:17 - “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18: “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Q: Is all fulfilled???

Answer: Yes!

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and the prophets in verse 17. In verse 18 Jesus said it would take until heaven and earth passed away for even one jot or tittle to pass from the law – until He fullfilled ALL.

Luke 24:44 - "And he said unto them, These are my
words which I spake unto you, while I was yet withyou,
that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are
written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the
psalms, concerning me."

Jesus said He had fullfilled ALL. Thus, with all things
having been fulfilled the Law and the prophets were
ready to pass away. This happened at "the cross".

You might convince someone with that line of reasoning, that is why it is good to balance the scripture with;
Hebrews, chapter 2:8 "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see NOT YET all things put under him. "




Notice the NOT YET???? it is evident that what Jesus has fulfilled, is;
A. The atonement.
B. A perfect demonstration of how to walk in righteous conduct. Jesus did not dismiss the sabbath, He demonstrated correct observance and principle of it. He owned/ownes it as "His 'holy' day".

 

[Apollos1]

Eli –

I wish you could give that sabbath “idol” up. All I can say is that you are in deep denial to cling to that “sabbath” of yours when you said...

You 'proved' nothing. Just because you 'convinced' yourself, does not constitute 'proof'. 'Proof' when speaking of theological things is demonstrated with scripture 'in context'.

Now I must say… LOL !!! Given your yet-articulated non-rebuttal of my prior posts, that is about all that can be directly said about your reply!

At the moment, your talk is cheap. But I will give you yet another opportunity to explain where and how I took the following –2- points out of context….

-The 7th day of the week was sanctified by God in Genesis 2:3. I showed that the “sabbath” was not given for 2,000 years – not until Israel came to Sinai. See Exodus 16:29, Exodus 20:8. Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was NOT holy from the first 7th day on.
What is taken out of context??????????????????????????

-I gave collaborating scripture that showed what the “sabbath” was – a SIGN beyween God and Israel, Exodus - 20:12,20, 31:16,31, Deut. 5:15.
Israel did not exist for that 2,000 years. Therefore I know that the “sabbath” was not around BEFORE Israel was around. What is taken out of context??????????????????

Hey Eli, this is only TWO points. Prove me wrong. Prove me out of context. For that matter, PROVE any of the ridiculous things you have said about me or your precious “sabbath”. Can you do that? Hmmmmmmmm????

And please – no “sabbath sophistry”. Don’t make vague reference to passages such as Genesis 2:3 and make improper inferences like the “sabbath” has always been observed and was always given. And proceed to state (without support) that the “sabbath” was given to all men and for all time, blah,blah,blah. The readers here are too smart to buy into vague references and improper/misplaced applications.
- - - - - - - - - -

Hebrews 2:8 – “Thou didst put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he subjected all things unto him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we see not yet all things subjected to him.”

You used this verse as if to indicate there was something yet unfulfilled by Christ after Christ clearly explained in Luke 24:44 that ALL things had been fulfilled “which are written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me.” Remember – this is in my last post?

What connection do you make between Christ’s FULFILLING all things and those things Christ has authority over that are not yet subjected unto Him? Is there a connection? Are you saying that because some things have not yet been subjected unto Christ that some things are not yet fulfilled? Subjection versus fulfillment – why don’t you explain Eli?????? The words don’t mean the same thing.

It is at this point I will ask you to “remember” Matthew 5:17 where Christ said He came to fulfill the law. Did Christ do that? I will ask you to “remember” that Christ in Matthew 5:18 said that nothing in the law would pass away UNTIL he fulfilled all things. Then I would ask you to “remember” Luke 24:44 again.

Please “remember” to reply directly to the texts this time. You did not “remember” last time.