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Christian Sexual Ethics by David Bradshaw

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by SingularityOne, Sep 17, 2021.

  1. SingularityOne

    SingularityOne Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    nice!
     
  3. 1rreducibly Complex

    1rreducibly Complex Newbie

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    Its trendy for religion to romanticize the "sanctity of marriage" of past eras. I do it. Many do.

    But hearing the woman known as the 100+ year old virgin talk about how she never had sex, and never got married, due to domestic abuse being endemic in her youth. Makes me question how "sanctified" marriage was in any era of history.

    Attempting to approach this pragmatically. Marriage may have been the best arrangement for an underpopulated ancient world with high child mortality rates.

    Today's world could be overpopulated thanks to nations like india doubling their populations within roughly the last 50 years.

    People love to romanticize traditional christian values. I am also very guilty of it. But there is a legitimate question as to whether ideological values such as "be fruitful and multiply" are sustainable in today's world. And whether or not much of today's sexual behavior people find aberrant is caused by the world being overpopulated by people, with nature being thrown out of its natural balance.

    Gay couples produce no children. Perhaps in some sense, this is nature's reaction to a world that is overpopulated by people. The same could be said with many couples choosing not to marry or have kids. And instead treating their pets as if they were children. Pornography and other behaviors which are viewed as aberrant sexual practices also produce no children.

    Perhaps on some level there is an unconscious counter movement being made to correct an overpopulated planet that correlates with the rise of porn, homosexuality and other trends.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
  4. Phronema

    Phronema Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    Hello, and welcome to TAW - The Ancient Way.

    You may not realize where you've posted, and that's understandable as it's easy to do on CF. I think it's important to understand that in an Orthodox Christian context everything we do is supposed to be done while remaining mindful of God, the Holy Scriptures, the lives and saying of the Saints, the Final Judgement, and so on. That list isn't all inclusive, but the idea is we are to attempt to lead our lives in a Christian manner at all times as much as possible. So this isn't about the romanticization of traditional Christian values; it's about living out our lives with the Holy Scriptures as our guidelines, and with Christ as its centerpiece, and model.

    I'll first say that I'm by no means perfect. That said sinful behavior is sinful behavior. That's not me judging anyone as I'm a sinner too, but pornography, homosexuality, and other aberrant sexual practices that produce no children are not acceptable in the eyes of Christ. To minimalize the spiritual sickness, and damage that this type of behavior causes in each of us is to bring about our own death at the Final Judgement if left unrepentant.

    All of that is to say that we live our lives with our eyes fixed on the Kingdom, and for the betterment of our salvation. The Holy Mysteries, or Sacraments which include marriage are centered around God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit and are there to bring us into communion with Him. All of these things are for our salvation, or that of our spouses. That's why we're married in a church with a clergyman as we are becoming married with/to our spouse before the eyes of God, and beginning a life together to partake in the others journey to salvation. Everything we do is for Him, and our salvation. Or the things that we don't do to include partaking of pornography, homosexual acts, and other aberrant behavior that doesn't produce children.

    Overpopulation, and the evolutionary aspects that you're citing are of this world. In the grand scheme the things of this world won't mean much to us once we're no longer living in it.
     
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  5. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    if you read what Orthodoxy has said concerning traditional marriage, there is nothing trendy about it.
     
  6. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    I like what the man has said, though I dislike speaking of “ethics” in regard to moral questions, as these days it is usually an effort to “scientize” morality, and often to give bad ideas an air of education and wisdom by speaking Greek. This guy seems right on, though. I certainly could throw in how changes accepted in language have influenced attitudes, and to point out the basic truth that far too often, most of the time, I think, people come into the Church thinking their own ideas to BE the mind of the Church. The idea that I could be wrong and that it is I who need to change how I think crosses people’s minds too rarely.
     
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  7. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    Hi, and welcome! Your idea is common enough, especially in academia, but for the few that want to pose your ideas as questions and put them to an honest test on a purely secular level, I might suggest a book written by a man 100 years ago (who might have been godfather to your 100-yr old virgin) who thought thoroughly and deeply about the idea of what exactly marriage is, is it merely pragmatic, and so on. But it does require patience and that honest desire to test one’s own ideas against a thesis that challenges them, rare qualities, something vanishingly rare in academia. If you’re up to it, you might be surprised: http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/divorce.txt
     
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  8. 1rreducibly Complex

    1rreducibly Complex Newbie

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    Can I point out that followers of the christian God in the old testament practiced polygamy during the ancient era. In a time when they were conquering cities. Killing all the men. And dividing up the women amongst themselves. The ratio of men to women during this time was likely one where women greatly outnumbered men. It may have made practical and numerical sense for each man to have more than one woman as wife.

    In a latter era, when the ratio of men to women stabilized, monogamy and the sanctity of marriage became the ideal to pursue.

    We may have examples of christian ideology shifting to suit the circumstances of the world they lived in. Which could mean that if we live in an overpopulated world, christian ideology could eventually shift to adapt to it.

    When I think of the bible having a negative impression of the way of the world. What comes to mind is the way of the world being defined by lies, bad decisions and ignorance. The way of the world could consist of arrogance, greed, narcissism and other assorted negative sinful trends which christians are supposed to reject as they are born again.

    I don't think "the way of the world" applies to societal or cultural shifts which could be necessary to the survival of the human race. If humanity ever becomes extinct. Overpopulation could be a far more likely cause of it than aliens, zombies or robots.

    People often ask why God allows these negative events and trends to exist. The harsh reality could be that they are necessary to curb out of control population growth, to save the human race from destroying itself.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
  9. Andrei D

    Andrei D Active Member

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    That can't happen because Christ killed death and gifted us eternal life.
     
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  10. Phronema

    Phronema Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    I can appreciate your take on these issues, but I and, all/most Orthodox Christians look to the consensus of the Saints, and Apostles over the past 2,000 years to interpret these issues, and the scholasticism which you use to interpret them does not exist in Orthodoxy.

    I'd also like to mention that with this being The Ancient Way it is not a debate forum. Further I have no want to debate; I just wanted to familiarize you with the Orthodox Church's views on these issues.

    You can find the debate forum here : St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Chr

    Edit : For clarity I'm not stating that you are debating, but before it goes down that path I'd like to make it clear I have no intention of doing so. In addition I hope you stay, and post in fellowship.

     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
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  11. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    I think you're reading the OT too much like a 21st century Westerner, and not the way an ancient Semite would have understood it. plus, the Incarnation was the whole point and has implications that your post doesn't address.
     
  12. SeraphimSarov

    SeraphimSarov Пресвятая Богородица, спаси нас...

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    I think the more difficult way is to accept that no matter how much we think about and analyze what happens in the world, we won't know what God is doing until we've departed this life.
     
  13. Hekler

    Hekler New Member

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    Deleted.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
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