Christian leadership's destruction of the high moral ground

[Zoii]

No one's perfect – everyone makes mistakes. But in my country the view of Christianity as a bastion of love, kindness and morality is dropping and its helped along by prominent Christian leaders who are exposed as extreme hypocrites.


Take Australia's most recent example. The Deputy Prime-Minister.

The deputy PM, Barnaby Joyce, is an aggressively staunch defender of family values taking extreme stances on important legislation. For example he aggressively rejected the provision of a Human Papilla Virus vaccination protecting women from cervical cancer on the basis it would make them promiscuous. During the Same Sex Marriage debate in Australia, Barnaby Joyce stated that marriage was a sacred institution and that SSM was a breach of that institution and a moral abomination. Now many of you will of course applaud him – well done deputy PM!!! *applause*

The trouble is that during all those debates, Barnaby was having an affair with one of his ministerial staff members. Indeed get got her pregnant. He then covertly shacked up with her in a residence provided by a "friend" businessman who as it happened sought decisions re his business through Barnaby's office. Barnaby's new pregnant partner gained a senior position in Barnaby's office sparking concerns of conflict of interest. He subsequently left his wife and two children. So the point? Well when a Christian leader strongly espouses morals and virtues to Christian and non-christians, and then abandons them himself, what view of Christianity is likely to be held.

The hypocrisy of Barnaby Joyce is stunning

But it isn’t just political leaders. After all the tragic investigations in Australia, US UK and others into religious institution child sexual abuse, it still goes on day after day with our religious leaders being held accountable for rape or child sexual abuse. To our leaders - what are you doing to Christians and Christianity.

Pastor: ‘Immodesty’ Of U.S. Gymnasts Caused Sexual Assault Scandal

Glendale pastor accused of sexual assault of a minor turns himself in to police

Medford pastor pleads guilty to sexual assaults

Pastor accused of sexual assault on girl out on bail, police say in California

Tennessee 'mega-pastor' admits sexual assault in Texas | Daily Mail Online

 

[A_Thinker]

The deputy PM, Barnaby Joyce, is an aggressively staunch defender of family values taking extreme stances on important legislation. For example he aggressively rejected the provision of a Human Papilla Virus vaccination protecting women from cervical cancer on the basis it would make them promiscuous. During the Same Sex Marriage debate in Australia, Barnaby Joyce stated that marriage was a sacred institution and that SSM was a breach of that institution and a moral abomination. Now many of you will of course applaud him – well done deputy PM!!! *applause*

The trouble is that during all those debates, Barnaby was having an affair with one of his ministerial staff members. Indeed get got her pregnant. He then covertly shacked up with her in a residence provided by a "friend" businessman who as it happened sought decisions re his business through Barnaby's office. Barnaby's new pregnant partner gained a senior position in Barnaby's office sparking concerns of conflict of interest. He subsequently left his wife and two children. So the point? Well when a Christian leader strongly espouses morals and virtues to Christian and non-christians, and then abandons them himself, what view of Christianity is likely to be held.

I agree ... in my own church, it is lapses by the leadership which have proven most destructive ...

Christians are encouraged in scripture to reject leadership by such hypocrites ...

2 Timothy

1 But understand this: In the last days terrible times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, without love of good, 4 traitorous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Turn away from such as these!

6 They are the kind who worm their way into households and captivate vulnerable women who are weighed down with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[High Fidelity]

I've distanced myself from Christian opinion and have done for a long time.

It's often the most influential that are the most hypocritical or guilty. We see it in positions of power within the Catholic Church especially, but in a host of other churches and denominations. It's disgusting.

The fusion of political identity and faith to the point where politics supersedes faith is also a very real problem too, especially this past decade.

 

[timewerx]

You do not need anyone to teach you. Jesus did not come to start a religious organization.

It was false teachers who did. This is why corruption in religion organization cannot be eradicated.

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

 

[HereIStand]

The church and school in which I was raised was plagued by sex scandals (some criminal). Sadly, they continue to proliferate in many denominations. It shatters many lives, and worse, turns some people against Christianity. Remember. Christianity is true whether everyone lives up to it or no one does.

The problem of institutional cover-up of sex crimes is widespread. It happens in religious and secular institutions. The abuse of Harvey Weinstein and of Jerry Sandusky (the Penn State coach) was known and covered up before becoming public. The Internet and cell phones make difficult to hide, as was possible in the past.

 

[Rajni]

Maybe the trick is to just not institutionalize religion, but rather keep it on an individual, case by case basis.

ISKCON, which is the Hare Krishna organization (under the umbrella of Hinduism), has struggled with scandals very similar to those in the Catholic Church. So I wonder if religions are more effective when followed on a more intimate, personal basis, where God has a positive impact on one's life. It appears that when religion is operating on a grander, one-size-should-fit-all scale, things get messy.

It's odd, to say the least.

(I'm trying really hard not to throw the baby out with the bathwater over here, lol)

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[A_Thinker]

Maybe the trick is to just not institutionalize religion, but rather keep it on an individual, case by case basis.

ISKCON, which is the Hare Krishna organization (under the umbrella of Hinduism), has struggled with scandals very similar to those in the Catholic Church. So I wonder if religions are more effective when followed on a more intimate, personal basis, where God has a positive impact on one's life. It appears that when religion is operating on a grander, one-size-should-fit-all scale, things get messy.

It's odd, to say the least.

(I'm trying really hard not to throw the baby out with the bathwater over here, lol)

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Persons who attain POWER (even just to influence followers) ... can be tempted to feel that they are unaccountable to anyone ( ... or ONLY to God).

I've seen this personally on more than one occasion.

The Biblical solution (I believe) is that followers should withdraw from leaders who do not sustain the moral standards of the faith. This would disempower them ... and their voice(s) would be diminished in the society.

Christians should not shrink from calling sin "sin", ... even if it involves a cherished leader.

 

[Sketcher]

Pastor: ‘Immodesty’ Of U.S. Gymnasts Caused Sexual Assault Scandal

To Swanson's credit, he is in favor of calling out sexual abuse within the church and going to the authorities when necessary. But he must not have followed the case all that much. Nassar was molesting athletes as young as 12, and his neighbor's daughter, who was not involved with gymnastics, beginning when she was six. In Nassar's partially-redacted written statement he alluded that he knew something about his condition when he was pursuing his medical studies. He worked his way into a top position of trust, and combined that with a perfect combination of subtlety and lying. Some of these incidents happened with parents in the room, he positioned himself between the victims and their parents or had them under a sheet so they couldn't see what his hands were doing. Immodesty didn't make him do any of that. And not being involved with gymnastics didn't protect his neighbor's daughter. Swanson seems to care more about his own agenda than about looking at what went wrong here.

 

[pat34lee]

You do not need anyone to teach you. Jesus did not come to start a religious organization.

True, but other than falling under a false teacher,
learning the bible alone can be one of the fastest
ways to fall into heresy. It's not for everyone.

 

[Zoii]

I agree ... in my own church, it is lapses by the leadership which have proven most destructive ...

Christians are encouraged in scripture to reject leadership by such hypocrites ...

2 Timothy

1 But understand this: In the last days terrible times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, without love of good, 4 traitorous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Turn away from such as these!

6 They are the kind who worm their way into households and captivate vulnerable women who are weighed down with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

The trouble is you dont know they are hypocrites until its way too late and his abominable acts have hurt children or women, and hes destroyed his family and congregation

 

[Zoii]

Persons who attain POWER (even just to influence followers) ... can be tempted to feel that they are unaccountable to anyone ( ... or ONLY to God).

I've seen this personally on more than one occasion.

The Biblical solution (I believe) is that followers should withdraw from leaders who do not sustain the moral standards of the faith. This would disempower them ... and their voice(s) would be diminished in the society.

Christians should not shrink from calling sin "sin", ... even if it involves a cherished leader.

I agree. How many times does a congregation diminish or forgive the unforgivable of one of its leaders. Do we have our systems right yet to stop all this?

 

[redleghunter]

I agree. How many times does a congregation diminish or forgive the unforgivable of one of its leaders. Do we have our systems right yet to stop all this?

Some if not a majority of these scandals someone usually knows before hand and early. As such it is not that the church is corrupt but a few who do not enforce church discipline. Yes this includes the church leaders.

As Jesus teaches in Matthew 18:15-20 and Paul in 1 Corinthians 5

The NT church government was not a one trick pony pastor holding all the cards like we see in modern mega churches, but an assembly of elders and deacons. Probably why a lot of these one pastor churches crumble once the pastor is found to be in grave unrepentant sin.

Good article on NT qualifications for elders.

2. The Biblical Qualifications For Pastoral Eldership (Titus 1:5-9, 1 Tim. 3:1-7, 1 Peter 5:1-4)

 

[A_Thinker]

The trouble is you dont know they are hypocrites until its way too late and his abominable acts have hurt children or women, and hes destroyed his family and congregation

Yep ... unfortunately, hypocrisy has to show its face before we can act on it ...

 

[A_Thinker]

I agree. How many times does a congregation diminish or forgive the unforgivable of one of its leaders. Do we have our systems right yet to stop all this?

Matthew 18 address accountability in churches.

It involves ...

1.) Meeting privately with the offender to try and achieve repentance and resolution.

2.) If that doesn't work, ... a group of 2 or more may approach the offender with the same goal.

3.) If the offender continues to hold out, ... bring the issue before the church

4.) Finally, expel the member if repentance is not achieved, all the while staying open to reinstatement upon repentance occurring.

As an added complication ... there must be at least (2) who are willing to bring an accusation against a church leader ...

 

[Zoii]

Yep ... unfortunately, hypocrisy has to show its face before we can act on it ...

Well what I am suggesting is that the lessons learned is that we can be proactive to a large degree. The training and vetting processes of clergy, do they attack these issues? Why is domestic violence so high among clergy? What is being taught in terms of the power relations between the and women and children. And certainly no-one should work with children unless they undergo a regulated vetted process.

 

[Zoii]

Matthew 18 address accountability in churches.

It involves ...

1.) Meeting privately with the offender to try and achieve repentance and resolution.

2.) If that doesn't work, ... a group of 2 or more may approach the offender with the same goal.

3.) If the offender continues to hold out, ... bring the issue before the church

4.) Finally, expel the member if repentance is not achieved, all the while staying open to reinstatement upon repentance occurring.

As an added complication ... there must be at least (2) who are willing to bring an accusation against a church leader ...

I would prefer this - if it is an offense that is an allegation of a breach of legislation eg sexual misconduct with a minor, or sexual assault of an adult, then the church steps back and refers it to the police. The church is not a lawful body to investigate.

If the issue is one of breaking ethical conduct eg immoral conduct but not illegal conduct, then I can accept the process you offered.

Lastly when an accusation is made both offender and victim need a lot of support - it is a terribly stressful thing for both parties and I say that whether the offender is guilty or innocent. Lastly I would add that internal investigations always benefit from external investigators who provide objectivity to the process.

 

[A_Thinker]

I would prefer this - if it is an offense that is an allegation of a breach of legislation eg sexual misconduct with a minor, or sexual assault of an adult, then the church steps back and refers it to the police. The church is not a lawful body to investigate.

I agree with this caveat.

 

[Rajni]

True, but other than falling under a false teacher,
learning the bible alone can be one of the fastest
ways to fall into heresy. It's not for everyone.

Personally, I'd rather risk heresy than hypocrisy.


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[redleghunter]

Personally, I'd rather risk heresy than hypocrisy.


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Both must be removed from the church.

 

[FireDragon76]

Human beings in general are hypocritical and flawed. Religion and religious people aren't exempt from that.