Christian landlord defeats politically correct law! A victory over persecution.

[Playerslight77]

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[immersedingrace]

I think the gospel is of utmost importance. Once people accept the gospel into their lives they will have the opportunity to examine themselves to determine how best to suit their newfound master.

Yes, we do need to examine ourselves, but I also seem to recall David crying out to God asking Him to "search me" (Psalm 103?) for any wicked way "in me". We need to be open to what GOD says to us as individuals and be willing to walk in that path.

Yes, the bible speaks on the issue; it speaks just as harshly on issues of prostitution and murder, but many people guilty of such offenses have done and are doing great things in the name of God.

I agree that the bible speaks harshly on all these issues, but I believe He only uses these people AFTER they have repented and walked aways from their sin. I'm NOT saying that God hasn't used sinners in great ways, He can and has. He's God! As I said previously, I'm not sure exactly WHERE I stand on the issue of the landlord, BUT I don't believe that he ruined any chance of these people coming to the Lord. Yea, it may be harder for another Christian to reach them, but I've seen miracles before.

I'm probably rambling and not making sense so I'll go now.

Blessings

 

[Playerslight77]

i

 

[Davidatwaypointe]

It's not like the refusal couldn't be made lovingly and with discretion.... but I could imagine God using someone in the stern-prophet mode also, rebuking the homosexual couple.

I believe strongly in relational evangelism, but I think there is evangelism in just putting one's foot down as well. At times, God might call us to just be a plumb line, stating the truth in an unwavering way.

The point is: if we're Spirit-filled, we won't need formula and religion to determine our autotomic response to any given input, you know? Regardless, a person's salvation is God's business, ultimately, so we should just do what the Spirit tells us to do and trust that we're playing our little part in the drama of God's plan, rather than trying to decide how we can behave to sort of manipulate people into the Kingdom by mushing the truth here and there. It's a narrow road, ya know?

 

[Playerslight77]

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[Paladin for Christ]

Even in the United States, Canada and Europe there is anti-Christian persecution. Sometimes it takes the form of laws designed to harm us because of Jesus Christ. Oh, those responsible for persecution cannot be so blunt, so they dress it up as 'human rights' or some other honorable sounding facade, but it is all the same... hostility against the Person of Jesus Christ.

A few years back a state prosecuted a landlord for refusing to rent to homosexuals since their lifestyle violated his beliefs. The state fined him 1,000 dollars.

He went around the state collecting donations of ONE DOLLAR each from individuals in many local churches. He produced a groundswell of Christian activism that later resulted in the formation of the Alliance Defense Fund with Alan Sears and the Northstar Legal Foundation with Jordan Lawrence. These groups argued successfully to the state Supreme Court that the state constitution gave the landlord the right to discriminate in the Name of Jesus because of the landlord's faith, and won!

The state constitution allows special rights to faith not otherwise granted political or other beliefs. The landlord got a full refund for his $1,000 and the rest is history. The persecutors intended this for evil, but God turned it for good!

You can fight religious persecution and win. When you defend your religious rights in the Name of Jesus Christ, you frustrate the devil and proclaim righteousness. Here are the links to law firms which work for free as their ministry in Christ.

http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/
http://www.christianlaw.org/
http://www.aclj.org/
http://www.thomasmore.org/
http://www.becketfund.org/
http://www.rutherford.org/
http://www.pacificjustice.org/
http://www.clsnet.org/
http://www.lc.org/
http://www.libertylegal.org/
http://www.hslda.org/

Homosexuality is a sin. I know that. But not letting someone buy a house or rent an apartment because of this?

Everyone sins. And homosexually is a sin. If we stopped renting or selling property to anyone who sins, no one would have a house or apartment.

Do not judge. That's God's job.

I have yet to see "Jesus's Message' in what that landlord did.

 

[Playerslight77]

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[CSMR]

I can't stand the word evangelism. Although it may have started out as a productive concept, the method of its implementation invariably starts with a condemnation of the non-believer, and a statement of belief by the evangelist.

Paul expresses a different attitude in his exhortation to desire prophecy rather than tongues in 1 Corinthians 14:
But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Just be their friend. Show them how differently you live by your actions. Show them the peace in your life. Show them the care you have for others. SHOW SHOW SHOW. Not say say say. Talking just makes us look like hypocrites.

What can they deduce from our actions? For instance how does seeing us care for others, if we do that, show Christ to them? Perhaps it shows our goodness to them, or shows them their difference from us, or it encourages them to lead a moral life. If I did not know of Christ I suspect these possibilities would occur to me well before the possibility that I live out of faith in Christ's redemption. That's not to say that actions can't communicate - only on their own am I skeptical of their power to communicate the gospel.

As soon as my mouth starts moving I am unable to listen. If I am not listening, the person I am talking to doesn't believe that I care about them.

You can try speaking in turn .

 

[CSMR]

What I'm understanding here is that the 'plank' is equal to our sin, and that the forgiveness of our sins results in the removal of the plank. In addition, your're intimating that the 'plank' is eradicated upon our acceptance of Salvation and the subsequent forgiveness of sins. I'm sorry I just reworded what you said, but I want to make sure we are on the same page...

Yup.

So now it actually becomes important to place judgement on non-believers, because once they accept the salvation of God and the removal of sins their 'plank' is gone, and they are clear of all sin. We then have nothing to judge them on!

Well, the objective judgement that all fall short and all are disobedient to God still applies to everyone. I think judge refers to this objective judgement rather than the final judgement in which God has mercy on some.

How do I know which planks are in my eye and which ones have been sufficiently removed in order to be able to point them out in others?

There is only one plank, and that is our evil. In one sense it is completely removed by grace. Then we can go out and can see to show others how this plank is removed. In another sense it is still there, in that sin is still there. That doesn't prevent us from telling others of the judgement and grace of God - they are both present and understood in our lives.

This whole concept of excluding gays from the faith may be removing some of the best 'tools of God' that may be on the world today.

That's certainly objectionable. Preventing them from taking a property (which I have argued, may be justified sometimes) isn't excluding them from the faith. I am sure that they can become great disciples.

Have you ever heard of works by Rothbard, Hayek, Mises, et al? (London School/Austrian/University of Chicago Economics)

I walked into them firm on my notions of welfare and natural resource economics, and they blew my theories right out of the water. Now I can't even hear someone talk about 'willingness to pay' or 'utility functions' without getting shivers...but I probably crossed too far to the other side![/QUOTE]
No, but I'll certainly give them a look.

 

[Moros]

Good for him.

 

[CSMR]

Asking for blessings not allowed. Contribute to CF for blessings.

 

[Davidatwaypointe]

There appears to be far more stern prophets in North America than there are loving and discrete individuals. We are not lacking in the vindictive prophet area at all...

Self-appointed prophets, perhaps -- but "vindictive prophet" is a phrase that shouldn't really being operative under a genuine prophetic anointing.

Jonah nothwithstanding.

 

[Davidatwaypointe]

I can't stand the word evangelism. Although it may have started out as a productive concept, the method of its implementation invariably starts with a condemnation of the non-believer, and a statement of belief by the evangelist. It's even worse when it has occurred in a 'relation', like an alcoholics 'intervention.' Then the now broken individual must choose between ignoring the aggressor, or 'joining the club'. It makes me kind of sick...

Just be their friend. Show them how differently you live by your actions. Show them the peace in your life. Show them the care you have for others. SHOW SHOW SHOW. Not say say say. Talking just makes us look like hypocrites.

You want to know my outlook on evangelism?

"Lord, help me to preach the Gospel wherever I go, and if I must, even through words."
St. Francis of Assisi

As soon as my mouth starts moving I am unable to listen. If I am not listening, the person I am talking to doesn't believe that I care about them. And if they don't believe that I care about them, they will not care about a word I say.

...much like your reaction toward "prophet," it seems "evangelism" has very negative connotations for you; yet, you outline evangelism just fine by saying that one should let actions speak. I think it's a combination of the two, but, like James, I also think faith without works is dead, and so is evangelism without works.

 

[Paladin for Christ]

You have wisdom beyond your years, young Paladin

If youth today have the same vision as you there may be hope for Christianity yet...

Thank you. I don't know if i have "wisdom beyond my ears", but i sure do pay attention to the scriptures.

Anyways, remember how Jesus hung around Gentiles, and encouraged them to come with him and be his deciples?

Not letting this homo-sexual couple have a home is the COMPLETE oppesite of jesus's teachings. Like i said, all sin is equal. There is no sin worse than the other. It's SIN. "Oh, he lied once. Let's not rent him an apartment."

PS: I've noticed no one has replied to what i said. Can you say, stumped?

 

[Sharp]

Anyways, remember how Jesus hung around Gentiles, and encouraged them to come with him and be his deciples?

Just a correction. Jesus never approved of sin or excused it. He never compromised with sin or ordered His followers to do so. He built friendships with both Jews and Gentiles for the purpose of converting them to repentence and new faith. If a born again, Bible-believing Christian builds friendships with active homosexuals, it should be for the same purpose that Jesus had.

Not letting this homo-sexual couple have a home is the COMPLETE oppesite of jesus's teachings.

Wrong! Banning the use of one's own home for immoral purposes is very much in keeping with the God's Word.

Do not confuse inviting a homosexual into your home on your terms (which is your choice) with being forced to allow your home to be used for sinful behavior that is offense to your religious beliefs. Jesus Christ never required or approved such tolerance of sin.

Like i said, all sin is equal. There is no sin worse than the other. It's SIN. "Oh, he lied once. Let's not rent him an apartment."

Most honest readers can readily see an enormous difference between renting to homosexuals who intend to have immoral, sinful sexual intercourse in your home and merely having once told a lie. So did the state Supreme Courts in these two cases!

Lastly suppose someone wants your apartment for the express purpose of lying (like spreading deliberately deceptive maliscious internet gossip about politicians over the phone modem in the apartment). You would be legally justified in refusing to rent to him, because lying is sinful and offensive to your religious beliefs. You may refuse to rent! The point is that in that case you have been told that your home is going to be used for evil and immoral purposes that violate your Christian faith. The state Supreme Courts agreed.

Don't let anyone mislead you either as to your duties as a believer in Christ or your rights as a citizen.

The non-profit law firms in my signature will be glad to help you. Here are their websites:

http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/
http://www.christianlaw.org/
http://www.aclj.org/
http://www.thomasmore.org/
http://www.becketfund.org/
http://www.rutherford.org/
http://www.pacificjustice.org/
http://www.clsnet.org/
http://www.lc.org/
http://www.libertylegal.org/
http://www.hslda.org/

 

[wandering_paladin]

*sigh* ok. here goes.

So you honestly think that denying someone a place to live because of sexual orientation is warranted? What has this country been fighting for the last 100 years? Using the Word of God to proliferate hate, prejudice, arrogance, and caste mentality is in my humble opinion BLASPHEMY. We were taught to love. We were taught to forgive. We were taught to show people the mercy and kindness of God. But no, people would have it different. People would warp this simple message into something they can use to justify their own iniquities and inner hatred towards other people.

what's next? People marching around shouting "sieg-Heil" with a Bible in one hand and a KAR 98 in the other? That is exactly what will happen when the message of the Almighty is used to proliferate blatant discrimination, hate, and prejudice.

 

[Sharp]

>> So you honestly think that denying someone a place to live because of sexual orientation is warranted?

I dunno. That's not what my original post is about, nor does the Bible call orientation sin, but the landlord's sincerely held religious belief is that the Bible calls the homosexual sex act a sin. You see the Christian landlord finds homosexual sex acts to be highly offensive against God, and the law in his state said his religious beliefs came first. Amen!

>> What has this country been fighting for the last 100 years?

I dunno. No taxation without representation? 54/40 or fight? Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute? HeHe

I suspect you will find the answer in the first amendment. Freedom of religion!

>> Using the Word of God to proliferate hate, prejudice, arrogance, and caste mentality is in my humble opinion BLASPHEMY.

Yeah, so? Remember it's that landlord's religious belief that it was a good thing to ban homosexual sex acts from his own home! He sincerely believed that it pleased God to exclude what he considered to be sin from his home. That was the landlord's religious belief. The landlord claimed that is God's Bible standard, so if the state prosecutor is offended by the landlord's religious faith, perhaps the state prosecutor should take it up with the One who gave that landlord the Bible.

There is no evidence of "hate, arrogance, and caste mentality". These are merely your own accusations, and rather poorly chosen ones at that.

>> We were taught to love. We were taught to forgive. We were taught to show people the mercy and kindness of God.

Amen! Preach it, brother. I hope your love extends to ex-gays who have received counselling and healing and chosen to move out of that orientation and are now heterosexuals with happy marriages and families. God also loves both heterosexuals and homosexuals who are still in that orientation and have chosen never to have sexual intercourse until married to an opposite gender partner. Let the love of Christ include them too.

What is lacking in your argument is any connection between forgiveness and the Christian landlord's being forced to let his home be used for sexual practices he considers highly offensive and sinful against his religious faith.

>> But no, people would have it different.

Uh, pardon me, but the Bible is God's book. I suggest God is the One Who has a different opinion from the ACLU!

>> People would warp this simple message into something they can use to justify their own iniquities and inner hatred towards other people.

Again the Word of God tells us that in the last days sinners will call what is good "evil" and call what is evil "good". I suggest all people read the Word of God to make sure that what each of us calls good and evil agree with His divine standards. That is very courteous and respectful.

Let God's Word be the standard of what is right. The landlord claimed his beliefs are based upon the Bible! And the court respected his beliefs.


>> what's next? People marching around shouting "sieg-Heil"

I dunno? Is Hillary running in '08?


>> a KAR 98 in the other?

I'm impressed if you actually know the history and development of the Karabiner Model 1898. If you, however, are merely reciting a cliche from a Michael Moore propaganda video...


>> That is exactly what will happen when the message of the Almighty is used to proliferate blatant discrimination, hate, and prejudice.

Hmmmm.... Hate? Who's hating? Certainly not the landlord. He didn't harbor hatred in his heart for anyone. He merely didn't want his home used for sexual purposes that offend his deeply held religious beliefs. Surely you can respect that.

Prejudice? Surely the landlord's prejudice against what he considers a sexual sin is a good and wonderful blessing. Blatant Discrimination? Surely yes! because the law allowed it in this case. When the landlord does not want his own home apartment used for sexual purposes so offensive to his faith in Christ, he had a legal right to discriminate without fear of anti-religious persecution. I admire his courage, convictions, and actions and recommend his example to others in similar situations.

If you or your church or family members have questions about religious rights including the subject of this post, contact any of these websites:

http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/
http://www.christianlaw.org/
http://www.aclj.org/
http://www.thomasmore.org/
http://www.becketfund.org/
http://www.rutherford.org/
http://www.pacificjustice.org/
http://www.clsnet.org/
http://www.lc.org/
http://www.libertylegal.org/
http://www.hslda.org/

Sharp is thankful for the vindication of this fine man. He was unfairly
deprived of his rights, and this clean sweep in the courts is his legacy.

Pray as Congress and the new Supreme Court's restore and seek to affirm
America's spiritual heritage. Patience.
America is being restored to greatness.

 

[megjesfai]

<quote>And as you know many liberals have never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.</quote>

Well if this isn't the most judgemental and ignorant thing i've ever heard.......
how the heck do you or anyone else on this planet know what someone elses "personal relationship" with God is. and its more of the conservative churches that i have been to that have been more like, "you need to go to church to be saved." then the liberal churches. Liberal churches are often MORE about having a personal relationship with God regardless of the fact that the person might black, white, purple, a herion addict, or a homosexual!

 

[Sharp]

And as you know many liberals have never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

>> Well if this isn't the most judgemental and ignorant thing i've ever heard.......

Sharp observes that you don't get around much!

>> how the heck do you or anyone else on this planet know what someone elses "personal relationship" with God is.

Jesus knows. Jesus Christ Himself told us how we would know one another, but I am not allowed to discuss this further according to forum rules. Sorry pal, but you're going to have to figure this one out all by yourself. I am allowed under forum rules to quote the very statement that you find so offensive.

I don't quote that to offend. Just the opposite is true. If you are offended by what I sincerely believe is the truth, then let me assure that was not my intention. I hope that helps you feel better.

>> and its more of the conservative churches that i have been to that have been more like, "you need to go to church to be saved."

Truer words were never spoken except with a minor correction. You can be saved without going to a church. The Bible makes it clear that salvation is not in any church, but in a personal relationaship with a divine Person, Jesus Christ, and, yes, we all need to be saved. You have God's Word on it!

>> Liberal churches are often MORE about having a personal relationship with God regardless of the fact that the person might black, white, purple, a herion addict, or a homosexual!

Repent of sin and believe in Christ! To repent of sin means the sinner is sorry for his/her sin and regrets the sin. He or she renounces the sin and resolves to give it up forever for the sake of Christ. That remedy works every time it is tried. That's salvation.

PS- Are you really sure there are purple Christians? You aren't a Minnesota Vikings fan, are you?

 

[megjesfai]

you are just generalizing so badly. you really have no right to judge someones relationship with God. just as you would not want them to judge you. I think your view on this issue and on what christianity means as a whole are extremely narrow and disclude those people who still struggle with sin. i find it offensive. you are an example of the types of people who cause people to never set foot in the church buildings unless they have gone to church their entire lives. i think that in itsself is sinful--because it isn't what God wants. You win people over to Christ by showing them love. not bigotry. There is a lot more to a gay person then just their sexual orientation. Just like their is more to you then yours. we all sin. and unless someone is commiting blasphemy against the holy ghost- their sin is equal to yours. So sorry...you don't have a right to judge. thats Gods job. We can use spiritual discernment but prayer and love goes a lot further then judgement.

yes i agree tha tyou don't need the church to be saved. but many conservative churches that i have been to don't believe that or even if they say they do its not reflected in their actions. being all about needing ot be in church to have a relaitonship with God implies that they not place the emphasis on having a personal relationship with God. the liberal churches i've been to are the complete opposite. can you understand what i mean.....
there are plenty of liberals that have great personal relationships with God while many conservatives just go to church on sunday for appearances.