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Christian Jews

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by GreenEyedLady, May 20, 2002.

  1. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
    +3
    Vow and jukesk9:


    Well, after spending a few days thinking about it, it seems to me that this forum just isn't going to work out. We might as well call this trial period to be officially over.

    Evidently, political-correctness has taken root here -- so much so, that you're not interested in investigating the history of Christianity to find out where Christian traditions originated. You're asking us to participate with both hands tied behind our backs, and you're telling us that we cannot state what we believe to be the truth.

    One of the very *foundational* beliefs in Messianic Judaism is that Christianity, as a whole, has adopted many pagan traditions into its worship of HaShem. It's one of the things that led us to Messianic Judaism in the first place -- the desire to rediscover the Hebraic roots of our faith and to rid ourselves from every last vestige of pagan idol worship, every symbol, every tradition, every word. You're telling us, however, that we cannot point any of this out. We believe that HaShem has specifically commanded us *NOT* to inquire of other religions and adopt their practices into our worship of Him and say we're doing it for Him.

    It was never our intention to offend anyone, but it is our intention to point out what we believe to be pagan traditions and symbolism.

    Sometimes, the truth hurts, but it nevertheless remains the truth. Since you are unwilling to listen, then what is the point of keeping this forum alive?


    Shimon
     
  2. Charles YTK

    Charles YTK Well-Known Member

    +142
    Messianic
    Married
    Hang on Brother Shimon. Allow the spirit a space to work.

    :) Charles YTK
     
  3. Charles YTK

    Charles YTK Well-Known Member

    +142
    Messianic
    Married
    In II Thes Paul speaks about a great apostasy, a falling away from sound doctrine that would take place. He speaks of a leader who is called "the man of lawlessness". What does this mean? Does it mean that this mad had no respect for civil law, or the local authority? No. It is Gods Law that he is devoid of. In fact his is the embodiment of rejection of Gods law. (Torah). And Paul said the separation from the law had already begun in his own day but that it would continue to get worse as men reject the Torah and follow the spirit of lawlessness. This means that the process that sets the stage for the revelation and acceptance of the antichrist is tied directly to the rejection of Torah, because it is the law of God which holds evil in check, not Roman law. In light of this I copy this very good translation to this thread for you.

    2 Thes 1 But in connection with the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and our gathering together to meet him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily shaken in your thinking or anxious because of a spirit or a spoken message or a letter supposedly from us claiming that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way.
    For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom. 4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God.
    5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way. 8 Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouthand destroy by the glory of his coming.
    9 When this man who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders. 10 He will enable him to deceive, in all kinds of wicked ways, those who are headed for destruction because they would not receive the love of the truth that could have saved them. 11 This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie. 12 The result will be that all who have not believed the truth, but have taken their pleasure in wickedness, will be condemned.
    (Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications) 1996

    Who was it then that in the days of Paul had already begun to depart from the sound teachings of Torah and to reject it as Gods authority in a believers life. For a clue, ask yourself what denominational Christianitys position on the Torah is. It is totally rejected by the church.

    Charles YTK
     
  4. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
    +3
    Charles:

    Thing of it is, I don't know how I can continue here. It's like participating in a politics forum, but I can't say anything that the supporter of the other political party might object to.

    As far as I'm concerned, this was supposed to be a place where we can discuss our beliefs, openly, truthly, and at times, bluntly. If someone takes offense at our beliefs, then that's what the Meeting Place forum is for: to debate those issues.

    In *this* forum, we should be able to discuss our beliefs exactly as we see it, but we're being given a gag order. I've been thinking over it for the past few days, and as I see it, no matter what topic I may choose to discuss, I see no way of being able to abide by the implied rule of not "offending" anyone. If I can't even discuss the Eucharist, how am I *ever* going to be able to discuss what the Christmas tree symbolizes, or what it is we're hanging on it?

    I'm not trying to offend or insult anyone, but as the same time, I *must* be given the right to state what I believe to be true. If I am not given that right, then what's the purpose of being here at all?

    Shimon
     
  5. Charles YTK

    Charles YTK Well-Known Member

    +142
    Messianic
    Married
    Hello Shimon,

    I know what you are saying. It is difficult because no matter where we go in discussion forums or in life, we are not going to be recieved too well. There are as you have noted some very significant differences between what we believe and what the denominational believers hold as sacred. I suspect that you like many of us, are intent on following only the biblical teachings rather than the teachings of men and the traditions of the church fathers who taught a mixed message. We have the same problem dealing with Jews and Orthodox Messianics (If that is the correct term) because they hold to the Rabbinical traditions, which are still the traditions of men. You see for myself, as an example, believe that we are to wear TziTzi and this allows either Katan or Tallit or both on occassion. This is Biblically sound and was practiced by the Lord, the apostles and all the Nazzarenes.. However, I do not wear Kippah, because it is not commanded, but is a "rabbinical" sign of piety. I do not begrudge anyone from wearing one if they choose to, for piety or for being in solidarity to our orthodox brothers, but I can not claim that it is a biblical principle, because it simply isn't.

    Now lets look at how the scriptures describes the true believers of the last days, those who will see the Lord come with gladness. These men suffer for the sake of their testimony and a persecuted by the Antichrist system.

    Rev 12:17 [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    The true believers do both, they keep the commandments of God, AND also they have the testimony of Messiah Yeshua. Both faith through propession and faith through obedience. It is not what you believe that is important, but how you live in response to what you believe, Right? This is why James says, "I will show you my faith by my works." This is a hard word for those who have spent their lives hearing just the opposite, that it is only what you believe, and reciting the sinners prayer is all that is needed; That the Torah (the instructions) of God is null and void for the believers in messiah. This is not what the Lord or any of the apostles taught is it? It is a church teaching from the apostate Roman church which rejected the Hebraic roots of the faith and anything connected with the Jewish people. It is doctrine based in replacement theology, which was the main framework of all Gentile Christianity. These things do not change easily after almost 2000 years. We can only share the word.

    Charles YTK
     
  6. dignitized

    dignitized Well-Known Member

    +724
    My brother charles,

     


     

    If you are expecting me to say that when I partake of the Eucharist I am going to taske flesh and blood you misunderstand the doctrine of transubstantiation. However, since I agreed NOT to make this thread about that doctrine I will suffice it to post to a link which will explain what exactly transubstantiation is - http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Homiletic/Jan98/transubstantiation.html

    I will reiterate charles that I am NOT Roman Catholic.  I was raised in the Methodist church.  And much to the dismay of some of my Catholic brethren I do not insist upon adherance to the doctrine of transubstantiation.  I do RIGHTLY insist upon the acceptance of the doctrine of the REAL PRESENCE of Christ Jesus in the Eucharist or LORDS SUPPER.  If you prefer to understand the real pressance in light of the doctrine of Consubstantiation thats fine - so long as you do accept and believe as did the apostles and the early church that when you partake of the Eucharist you partake of Jesus Christ.
     
  7. dignitized

    dignitized Well-Known Member

    +724
     

    Shimon,

     

    There is no problem with discussing your beliefs.  But I will propose to you this: there are many people who believe - rightly or wrongly - that the Jews bear the burden of Christs death.  Would you suggest that they be allowed in this forum to call Jews Christ killers?  Its not a problem with what you believe or do not believe - I'm not going to twist your arm and force you to believe in celebrating the Eucharist if you don't want to, I'll leave that to God.  But at the same time no oe here has the right to project it as witchcraft any more than those who believe that the Jews killed Christ have the right to defame Jews.
     
  8. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
    +3
    Br. Max:

    That's what many have been taught, and I see no reason why someone should not be allowed to ask for our perspective on that. If that's what they truly believe, I see no problem with them saying so. It's certainly something we're used to dealing with often. But if they wish to *debate* that topic, the Meeting Place is the place to do that.

    I used the very same word, "magical," that Christopher O'Quinn had used in an article he had written for "Bikurei Tziyon" magazine, published by First Fruits of Zion. I was summarizing the points he had made in his article, and used the same term he had used.

    I was showing that the gospel had been preached to Gentiles who were formerly pagan. New converts were placed in charge of leading their congregation, even though they were given no Torah instruction whatsoever, only brief instruction in the gospel, and they had no written scriptures at all. So they fell back on the only belief system they knew and melded that into Christianity. That was the point I was making with the Eucharist.

    Shimon
     
  9. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
    +3
    Charles:

    You are very right.

    I came to realize that "antichrist" does not mean "against Christ." The Greek word that is used for "antichrist" is "pseudochristo."

    "Pseudo" means "counterfeit." It's something which bears a *resemblance* to the original, but is distinct from the original. It is something that a believer fully expects to be the Christ, but which isn't the Christ at all. Once I understood that, I understood what John meant when he said:

    I suddenly began to realize that the Messiah I had been worshipping was not the true Messiah at all, but a counterfeit -- a replacement. The "spirit of antichrist" is already present, and has been for nearly 2000 years. John was telling us that it had already begun in his *own* day.

    This allowed me to better understand what Yeshua meant when He said:

    Who are these people of whom Yeshua is foretelling? Who prophecies in the name of Yeshua? Who casts out in demons in the name of Yeshua? Jews? Moslems? Buddhists? Hindu? No, it's *Christians.* And to these Christians, He is saying "I never knew you." He never knew them, and they never knew Him, because the Yeshua they were worshipping was not the real Yeshua. Instead, it was a Greco-Roman "Jesus" who "freed" us from His own commandments, and who had "replaced" His people Israel with something new: "the church."

    It came as a real shock to me to learn that I had, in very real terms, been a pagan idolator all my life. And yet, here it was in our scriptures, written in black and white. Yeshua gave us the answer to the "mystery of iniquity" that Paul spoke of:

    And this is why it is a "mystery:" Babylon doesn't know her own identity.

    Shimon
     
  10. Charles YTK

    Charles YTK Well-Known Member

    +142
    Messianic
    Married
    Shimon,

    You are correct. Christianity worships a god of their own making, which pops out of the scriptures by taking them out of their Hebraic context and making them put different words, doctrines, and laws in the mouth of Messiah; making him the one who destroys the law of god while saying that he did not come to destroy the law.

    Setting all that aside, it seems that if one was really walking with the Lord, it would only take about 1 minute of viewing of TBN and other TV ministries to be overwhelmed with the filth of the antichrist spirit. So much of what is preached from the pulpits is complete distortion of the word and yet no one questions it.

    This is not to say that there are no true believers out there. It is the system of churchianity, religion with it programs designed by the will of men that is foul and which brings the sheep to destruction.

    Charles YTK
     
  11. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

    962
    +8
    Messianic
    David Stern is the translator of the Comple Jewish Bible. He is a Mesianic Jew, and his Bible is very popular among Messianic Jewish believers, because it restores a Jewish entity to the Gospels. He also wrote a book called "The Jewish New Testament Commentary" In this book he attempts to explain the Hebrew Idioms behind the Greek writings, from a Jewish perspective. Here are some 'excerpts' from this book:

    Rev 2:9 I know your works, and the affliction, and the poverty; but you are rich. And I know the evil speaking of those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

    Rev 3:9 Behold, I give out of the synagogue of Satan those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but they lie. Behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they shall know that I loved you.

    " Yochanan (John) writes about Gentiles who call themselves Jews but aren't - on the contrary, they are a synagogue of satan, the adversary, Perhaps they, like the gentile Judaizers of the book of Galatians, adopted a smattering of Jewish practices and tried to force them on Gentile believers. They may have subjected themselves to a legalistic perversion of the Torah. They apparently organized a pseudo Messianic synagogue. Their false doctrine probably led them to wrong and immoral behavior, since false doctrine usually does. They probably drew Gentile Christians away from the truth, and thereby threatened the Messianic community. Virtually all commentators ignore the obvious and straightforward interpretation that Yochanan (John) is talking here about Gentiles who pretend to be Jews."

    "Should it nevertheless be thought improbable that Gentiles would call themselves Jews, Hebrews or Israelites, consider the following modern examples. The 'British Israelites' regard the British as the Ten Lost Tribes. The Mormons not only consider themselves to be the Ten Lost Tribes but regard themselves as Jews and everyone else (real Jews included) as Gentiles. A sect of mostly American-born blacks consider themselves the true Hebrews; several thousand of them are living in Israel. All of these are outside the pale of Christianity. In addition, scattered about are well-meaning Gentile Christians whose strong identification with and love for the Jewish people has made them believe,without a shred of evidence,that they are actually Jewish themselves.In fact, some years ago a congregation was expelled from the American Lutheran Church because, along with a general drift into weirdness, its pastor and dozens of its members claimed to have heard from God that they were really Jews; many even said they knew which tribe they belonged to."

    "Without exception this phenomenon of Gentiles imagining and asserting they are Jewish when they are not leads to strange patterns of doctrine and practice. Such people are not accepted by Jews as Jewish; nor, as this verse shows, are they to be accepted by Christians as Christian. Isolated and self-defensive, they can easily become prideful, neither obeying the Torah nor showing brotherly love to Yeshua's (Jesus) real followers. It is easy to see why Yeshua (Jesus) does not regard them as harmlessly neutral but pegs them as the synagogue of the adversary."

    (All above writings in "quotes" from the Jewish New Testament Commentary, by David Stern)
     
  12. Blindfaith

    Blindfaith God's Tornado

    +76
    Non-Denom
    I would just like to pop in here for a moment and give a little bit of advice.

    There are many of us who would like a better understanding of the Messianic faith, and are open to learning.  But, speaking strictly for myself, I don't like seeing my Christian faith being slammed.  You expect respect in here, I suggest that it be given in return.  It's a lot easier to catch flies with honey rather than vinegar.  Let's not be sour here, okay?

    Thanks.
     
  13. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
    +3
    blindfaith:

    Nobody here is trying to "slam" anyone's Christian faith. But, at the same time, if we thought it was okay to eat pork and shellfish, disregard the Sabbath and holy days, celebrate Christmas and Easter, etc. we wouldn't be Messianic Jewish in the first place. We'd just be members of a denominational church. This is what defines us, and distinguishes us from any other. If we cannot discuss it, what's the point of being here at all?

    But what do we do if the person is a moderator? Who do we take it to then?

    I've had one moderator take the eraser to any message she disagreed with, and threaten me with banishment. All I was trying to do was examine church history, providing the writings of the early church founders, in order to point out how certain beliefs and practices originated. I was told it was "Catholic-bashing" even though I went so far back in history that there was no such thing as "Catholic vs. Protestant." Both are descended from the same origins. I was examining early Christianity, not early Catholicism.

    I've made no unsubstantiated claims, everything I've said has been backed up with evidence. So what am I supposed to do? If I know that something is sinful, am I supposed to say that it's not sinful? Am I supposed to say "it's sinful, but don't worry about it?"

    Torah-obedience is what defines us. It's what we know to be true. How can we be expected to say that it's okay to disobey it? I don't understand.

    EDIT: By the way, I know and understand Rule #7 of the board, and I don't mean to break it. It's just that this seems to be a matter that may need to be addressed in public.

    It may be that this board was created without a real understanding of just what exactly Messianic Judaism *is* and what our message is. We don't believe it to be a trivial doctrinal issue, but an issue of salvific importance.

    Somehow, we need to be able to discuss amongst ourselves how we can participate here, because I foresee that most of what we have to say will be controversial. We're not saying that anyone is a "bad" Christian or anything like that, but we *do* see some serious errors in Christian teachings, and it is our desire to remove ourselves from those erroneous teachings. It is a foundational issue which defines and distinguishes us from other congregations.

    Shimon
     
  14. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
    +3
    Pray4Isrel:

    What have I said that was "uncivil?"

    What term should I use to refer to non-Torah-observant worshippers of Yeshua?

    Was it okay for the Israelites to build a golden calf and dedicate a feast to YHVH? Was He pleased?

    Was it okay for the Samaritans to worship on Mount Gerazim rather than in Jerusalem?

    Was it okay for Adam to eat from a tree he was told not to eat from?

    Were any of these transgressions "minor" or "trivial?" Do the scriptures ever indicate that these transgressions were of lesser importance than theft, rape and murder?

    Shimon
     
  15. Blindfaith

    Blindfaith God's Tornado

    +76
    Non-Denom
    Back to the OP ~

     
     
  16. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
    +3
    Pray4Isrel:

    We *are* talking about the original subject. She asked this question:

    But when we attempt to answer it and say how important these festivals are, we are considered "offensive."

    Shimon
     
  17. Blindfaith

    Blindfaith God's Tornado

    +76
    Non-Denom
    Like we said before, back to the Original Post.
     
  18. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
    +3
    Okay, back to the original post. The original questions were:

    We've gone to great lengths to answer the first question: "Why is not every Christian celebrating these festivals?" We've gone into great detail in explaining how Christianity separated from its Hebrew roots.

    The second question: "How important are they, and how do YOU feel about them?" We believe they are *very* important. Yeshua told us how we are to worship Him. As He said to the Samaritan woman in John Chapter 4, "salvation is of the *Jews*" and we "*must* worship Him in spirit and in truth." Yeshua revealed to the Jews how He is to be worshipped, and therefore we must learn from the Jews how to do it. We cannot adopt traditions and practices of other religions and say we are doing it for Him.

    If one believes it is okay to continue disobeying His commandments (Sabbath, Holy Days, Kosher laws, etc.), then it is only logical that it must be okay to lie, cheat, steal, rape and murder. If you can break one commandment, then why not break them all?

    If someone claimed to "have faith" in Yeshua, and yet continued to live as a hit-man for the mafia, has he really placed his faith in Yeshua? One might say: "but murder is far more serious sin than breaking the Sabbath!" Says who? The prescribed punishment for both was the same: capital punishment. Many Christians today believe that fornication is a more serious sin that breaking the Sabbath, but the prescribed punishment for fornication was that the transgressor must pay the price of the dowry.

    What man considers the greater and lesser sins is not necessarily how God considers them. The wisdom of man is foolishness in the eyes of God.

    Shimon
     
  19. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,660
    Atheist
    Private
    Shimon,

    What is your interpretation of the following scripture?

    Romans 14:1-23

    1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.


    Thanks,
    John
     
  20. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
    +3
    TheBear:

    You've quoted the entire chapter which requires a rather lengthy response. So rather than address the entire chapter, I'll address what I think are the main points you are asking about. If there are others, point them out to me I'll answer them too.

    Okay, in order to understand this, we need to understand what pagan religions Paul was dealing with in his day:

    Right here, we can see that the issue in question is those turning to vegetarianism. The issue here wasn't about clean versus unclean meats but about those who are refusing to eat meat and are eating only vegetables. If our brother will only eat vegetables because he considers meat a sin, then we are to respect his weakness and not be a stumbling block to him. Even though we know God gave us meat to eat we shouldn't judge someone less mature in the faith. God had already told us that certain meats, such as lamb and beef, are clean. Paul is telling us that we are not to call "unclean" what the Lord has told us is "clean."

    On its face, I suspect the verse refers to the precursors of the Gnostics, who thought that the flesh was an evil thing to be reviled rather than a good thing created by God. It's similar to the Platonic ideal of perfection, and manifested itself in other Platonic systems (including the Manichee philosophy embraced by St. Augustine before his conversion). As a consequence of their contempt for the flesh, they would not marry (as that was a fleshly act relating to the creation of more flesh), and they would not eat flesh.

    As further evidence of this, let’s look at what Paul says in his first letter to Timothy.

    Okay, first notice that he says that certain people have listened to the teachings of “deceiving spirits,” “demons,” and “liars.” The first teaching that he mentions is that they were forbidding marriage. Marriage is a covenantal relationship between a man and woman which God ordained, and yet there were people teaching that it was a “sin” to marry. The Torah teaches that marriage is good for mankind and strongly encourages it. So, we know that this passage has nothing to do with Torah teachings. Clearly, these “deceiving spirits,” “demons,” and “liars” were teaching *against* Torah. We can see right away that he was dealing with a pagan religion and not Judaism.

    Even today, there are some animal-rights activists who are turning to vegetarianism because they believe it is "wrong" to eat other animals.

    The distinctions between clean and unclean animals always existed, from Genesis 7:2's "Of every clean beast thou shalt take...." to Revelation 18:2's "...of every unclean spirit, and a hole for every unclean and hated bird." Even in 96 CE when Revelation was written, 'unclean' animals were still distinguished from 'clean' animals; God *never* revoked His kosher laws.

    Paul is certainly not telling us that there is no need to observe the biblical holidays. In fact, he even told us to continue to observe the feast of Passover:

    In Acts 20:16, we find Paul hurrying to Jerusalem in order to be there in time to celebrate the Feast of Shavuot:

    What I believe Paul is saying in Romans 14 is that some people considered the Feast of Passover, for instance, as a holier day than other holy days such as Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonment), while others believed that Yom Kippur was a holier day than Passover. Even today, there are some who consider Christmas as a holier day than Easter, while others consider Easter as holier than Christmas.

    Shimon
     
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