Christian exclusivity?

AvisG

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I've been studying world religions in a general way. (This is about the only way they can be studied, unless you have 15 years to devote to each one.)

Many Christians seem to me not to have any grasp of just how many religions there really are, or of how ancient, deep and sophisticated many of them are.

Hinduism, to take the most ancient major religion, is fantastically profound. Many of its teachings parallel those of Christianity.

In fact, it's a rare religion that doesn't have some parallels with Christianity. The vast majority aren't some obviously pagan religion whose ghastly beliefs and practices make you cringe.

To most Christians, however, all these religions seem to be lumped together as simply non-Christian and nothing more than roads to hell. Because they aren't Christian, the hell with them (literally).

When one takes off one's Christian blinders, however, the doctrine of Christian exclusivity becomes highly problematical. I wonder how many Christian exclusivists could live with a devout Hindu or Buddhist family in a devout Hindu or Buddhist community for five years and still say, "These people are going to hell, and deservedly so."

Here is William Lane Craig's philosophical defense of Christian exclusivity: “No Other Name”: A Middle Knowledge Perspective on the Exclusivity of Salvation Through Christ | Reasonable Faith

Craig is one of the two or three premier Christian philosophers and apologists alive today. See if his sophisticated defense of exclusivity doesn't strike you as little more than mental masturbation. Does it have anything to do with the real world? (Philosophy seldom does, of course, and Craig admits his discussion may seem rather dry.)

At some intuitive level, I think many people who claim to be exclusivists know the conventional doctrine can't possibly be correct. Like some of the other most divisive doctrines (e.g., the deity of Jesus, the Trinity), the biblical support is thin indeed for doctrines with such vast consequences.

Jesus and the NT writers lived in a world with borders that would fit pretty easily into my home state of Arizona, or certainly no larger than a couple of Western states. Their focus, geographically and theologically, was quite parochial. Did they have any awareness whatsoever of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism and other religions that were already well-developed (and still exist today)? Very unlikely.

Must the Bible verses that support exclusivity ("There is no other name," "No one comes unto the Father," etc.) really be understood in terms of worldwide exclusivity?

Most of the time, the doctrine of exclusivity ends up being "watered-down exclusivity." Even William Lane Craig does this. Nevertheless, by Craig's watered-down reasoning the non-Christians who will be saved via general revelation will still be "rare," and vast swaths of humanity will be condemned. This was the best "balance" God could achieve. Really?

Once you water-down exclusivity at all, once you allow the tiniest crack in the dike, exclusivity is no longer exclusivity. So what purpose does the doctrine really serve except to divide and alienate?

In the interests of my own sanity, and consistent with my own deepest intuition, I've adopted the position that (1) I really don't know what those verses the exclusivists love really mean, but I doubt they mean what the exclusivists think they mean; (2) in terms of salvation, I will work out my own with fear and trembling and let others, Christian or Hindu or Jain, worry about theirs; (3) any discussion of Christianity by me with the believers of other religions will be in terms of "persuasion" as to why Christianity might be a clearer and deeper understanding of God, not in terms of who's "right" and who's "wrong."

As I recently said on a thread about Calvinism, I would say here to strict exclusivists: Sorry, I simply could not believe in a God like yours. I simply could not worship a God like that.

Of course, this view is anathema to strict Bible literalists and inerrantists. As I've said more than once, this biblical prison seems to me to be driven more by fear and insecurity than devotion. I'm simply incapable of believing doctrines that my deepest intuition tells me can't possibly be true and that cause me to live my life in a constant state of cognitive dissonance. Philosophical tap-dancing like William Lane Craig's simply collapses when it bumps into the reality in which I live.

Just my $0.02 worth on exclusivity.

Please, no strings of Bible verses. I know them all.
 
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Tolworth John

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I really don't know what those verses the exclusivists love really mean, but I doubt they mean what the exclusivists think they mean;
in terms of salvation, I will work out my own with fear and trembling and let others, Christian or Hindu or Jain, worry about theirs;

You don't know what is meant when Jesus said 'No one comes to the Father but by me.'
Yet you are ready to say Christians don't understand them.

The plain understanding is that everyone has to accept Jesus if they want to get to where God is.
It is equally clear from the rest of the bible that we approach God his way and not by what ever methods we can invent.
 
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Rhamiel

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I wonder how many Christian exclusivists could live with a devout Hindu or Buddhist family in a devout Hindu or Buddhist community for five years and still say, "These people are going to hell, and deservedly so."

the point is that everyone deserves hell, everyone has been born outside the friendship of God due to Adam and Eve’s original sin and above the age of reason everyone has personally sinned
That means everyone deserves hell

God gives us a chance to avoid what we deserve
He offers us healing from sin, forgiveness, new life in Him
 
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dqhall

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I've been studying world religions in a general way. (This is about the only way they can be studied, unless you have 15 years to devote to each one.)

Many Christians seem to me not to have any grasp of just how many religions there really are, or of how ancient, deep and sophisticated many of them are.

Hinduism, to take the most ancient major religion, is fantastically profound. Many of its teachings parallel those of Christianity.

In fact, it's a rare religion that doesn't have some parallels with Christianity. The vast majority aren't some obviously pagan religion whose ghastly beliefs and practices make you cringe.

To most Christians, however, all these religions seem to be lumped together as simply non-Christian and nothing more than roads to hell. Because they aren't Christian, the hell with them (literally).

When one takes off one's Christian blinders, however, the doctrine of Christian exclusivity becomes highly problematical. I wonder how many Christian exclusivists could live with a devout Hindu or Buddhist family in a devout Hindu or Buddhist community for five years and still say, "These people are going to hell, and deservedly so."

Here is William Lane Craig's philosophical defense of Christian exclusivity: “No Other Name”: A Middle Knowledge Perspective on the Exclusivity of Salvation Through Christ | Reasonable Faith

Craig is one of the two or three premier Christian philosophers and apologists alive today. See if his sophisticated defense of exclusivity doesn't strike you as little more than mental masturbation. Does it have anything to do with the real world? (Philosophy seldom does, of course, and Craig admits his discussion may seem rather dry.)

At some intuitive level, I think many people who claim to be exclusivists know the conventional doctrine can't possibly be correct. Like some of the other most divisive doctrines (e.g., the deity of Jesus, the Trinity), the biblical support is thin indeed for doctrines with such vast consequences.

Jesus and the NT writers lived in a world with borders that would fit pretty easily into my home state of Arizona, or certainly no larger than a couple of Western states. Their focus, geographically and theologically, was quite parochial. Did they have any awareness whatsoever of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism and other religions that were already well-developed (and still exist today)? Very unlikely.

Must the Bible verses that support exclusivity ("There is no other name," "No one comes unto the Father," etc.) really be understood in terms of worldwide exclusivity?

Most of the time, the doctrine of exclusivity ends up being "watered-down exclusivity." Even William Lane Craig does this. Nevertheless, by Craig's watered-down reasoning the non-Christians who will be saved via general revelation will still be "rare," and vast swaths of humanity will be condemned. This was the best "balance" God could achieve. Really?

Once you water-down exclusivity at all, once you allow the tiniest crack in the dike, exclusivity is no longer exclusivity. So what purpose does the doctrine really serve except to divide and alienate?

In the interests of my own sanity, and consistent with my own deepest intuition, I've adopted the position that (1) I really don't know what those verses the exclusivists love really mean, but I doubt they mean what the exclusivists think they mean; (2) in terms of salvation, I will work out my own with fear and trembling and let others, Christian or Hindu or Jain, worry about theirs; (3) any discussion of Christianity by me with the believers of other religions will be in terms of "persuasion" as to why Christianity might be a clearer and deeper understanding of God, not in terms of who's "right" and who's "wrong."

As I recently said on a thread about Calvinism, I would say here to strict exclusivists: Sorry, I simply could not believe in a God like yours. I simply could not worship a God like that.

Of course, this view is anathema to strict Bible literalists and inerrantists. As I've said more than once, this biblical prison seems to me to be driven more by fear and insecurity than devotion. I'm simply incapable of believing doctrines that my deepest intuition tells me can't possibly be true and that cause me to live my life in a constant state of cognitive dissonance. Philosophical tap-dancing like William Lane Craig's simply collapses when it bumps into the reality in which I live.

Just my $0.02 worth on exclusivity.

Please, no strings of Bible verses. I know them all.
I appreciate Hindus are not supposed to kill. They have been capable of extreme cruelty and prejudice. In India there is an admitted caste society. Christians are outcasts there. Do not believe in their idol worship, numerous gods and temples. I met a man who spoke highly of the monkey god. It sounded ridiculous to me. Can not imagine reincarnation, but they imagine it is true. I eat a mainly plant based diet except for seafood and rarely meat or cheese. I can not conform to their standards.

Buddhists are supposed to be against murder. I like this. Myanmar wants to be more Buddhist. Their army drove out and killed Muslims and Christians. I would not feel welcomed there.

I looked into the teachings of Buddha. I could not argue with some of what I found, but I did not find much there. While I am not a fundamentalist, I need the Gospel message in spite of it being only a partial account of Jesus’ teachings and miracles.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I appreciate Hindus are not supposed to kill. They have been capable of extreme cruelty and prejudice. In India there is an admitted caste society. Christians are outcasts there. Do not believe in their idol worship, numerous gods and temples. I met a man who spoke highly of the monkey god. It sounded ridiculous to me. Can not imagine reincarnation, but they imagine it is true. I eat a mainly plant based diet except for seafood and rarely meat or cheese. I can not conform to their standards.

Buddhists are supposed to be against murder. I like this. Myanmar wants to be more Buddhist. Their army drove out and killed Muslims and Christians. I would not feel welcomed there.

I looked into the teachings of Buddha. I could not argue with some of what I found, but I did not find much there. While I am not a fundamentalist, I need the Gospel message in spite of it being only a partial account of Jesus’ teachings and miracles.

I had a wonderful young Asian man as a tenant for several years who was a Buddhist. I'm sure that he will come up in the general resurrection in the White Throne Judgment period, along with those of other religions.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I've been studying world religions in a general way. (This is about the only way they can be studied, unless you have 15 years to devote to each one.)

Many Christians seem to me not to have any grasp of just how many religions there really are, or of how ancient, deep and sophisticated many of them are.

Hinduism, to take the most ancient major religion, is fantastically profound. Many of its teachings parallel those of Christianity.

In fact, it's a rare religion that doesn't have some parallels with Christianity. The vast majority aren't some obviously pagan religion whose ghastly beliefs and practices make you cringe.

To most Christians, however, all these religions seem to be lumped together as simply non-Christian and nothing more than roads to hell. Because they aren't Christian, the hell with them (literally).

When one takes off one's Christian blinders, however, the doctrine of Christian exclusivity becomes highly problematical. I wonder how many Christian exclusivists could live with a devout Hindu or Buddhist family in a devout Hindu or Buddhist community for five years and still say, "These people are going to hell, and deservedly so."

Here is William Lane Craig's philosophical defense of Christian exclusivity: “No Other Name”: A Middle Knowledge Perspective on the Exclusivity of Salvation Through Christ | Reasonable Faith

Craig is one of the two or three premier Christian philosophers and apologists alive today. See if his sophisticated defense of exclusivity doesn't strike you as little more than mental masturbation. Does it have anything to do with the real world? (Philosophy seldom does, of course, and Craig admits his discussion may seem rather dry.)

At some intuitive level, I think many people who claim to be exclusivists know the conventional doctrine can't possibly be correct. Like some of the other most divisive doctrines (e.g., the deity of Jesus, the Trinity), the biblical support is thin indeed for doctrines with such vast consequences.

Jesus and the NT writers lived in a world with borders that would fit pretty easily into my home state of Arizona, or certainly no larger than a couple of Western states. Their focus, geographically and theologically, was quite parochial. Did they have any awareness whatsoever of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism and other religions that were already well-developed (and still exist today)? Very unlikely.

Must the Bible verses that support exclusivity ("There is no other name," "No one comes unto the Father," etc.) really be understood in terms of worldwide exclusivity?

Most of the time, the doctrine of exclusivity ends up being "watered-down exclusivity." Even William Lane Craig does this. Nevertheless, by Craig's watered-down reasoning the non-Christians who will be saved via general revelation will still be "rare," and vast swaths of humanity will be condemned. This was the best "balance" God could achieve. Really?

Once you water-down exclusivity at all, once you allow the tiniest crack in the dike, exclusivity is no longer exclusivity. So what purpose does the doctrine really serve except to divide and alienate?

In the interests of my own sanity, and consistent with my own deepest intuition, I've adopted the position that (1) I really don't know what those verses the exclusivists love really mean, but I doubt they mean what the exclusivists think they mean; (2) in terms of salvation, I will work out my own with fear and trembling and let others, Christian or Hindu or Jain, worry about theirs; (3) any discussion of Christianity by me with the believers of other religions will be in terms of "persuasion" as to why Christianity might be a clearer and deeper understanding of God, not in terms of who's "right" and who's "wrong."

As I recently said on a thread about Calvinism, I would say here to strict exclusivists: Sorry, I simply could not believe in a God like yours. I simply could not worship a God like that.

Of course, this view is anathema to strict Bible literalists and inerrantists. As I've said more than once, this biblical prison seems to me to be driven more by fear and insecurity than devotion. I'm simply incapable of believing doctrines that my deepest intuition tells me can't possibly be true and that cause me to live my life in a constant state of cognitive dissonance. Philosophical tap-dancing like William Lane Craig's simply collapses when it bumps into the reality in which I live.

Just my $0.02 worth on exclusivity.

Please, no strings of Bible verses. I know them all.

This the 'church age'. God is calling the firstfruits (spring harvest). Very exclusive.
 
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d taylor

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Are these other people from the seed of Adam. If so then only the God who created Adam can provide eternal life because God is eternal life.

The path to eternal life is small it can only be through God of The Bible.
 
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AvisG

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@AvisG Have you been born again? Do you have the Holy Spirit indwelling in you?
I have indeed been "born again." I had very vivid and unexpected born-again experience when I was 20 (50 years ago). I served with Campus Crusade and attended a Southern Baptist seminary. I have preached in Baptist churches and been published in Christian periodicals. But thanks for asking.

The Holy Spirit? Yes, I believe that I have seen the workings of the Holy Spirit throughout my life. I am working on a book manuscript concerning this at this very moment. But thanks for asking.

The responses are pretty much as anticipated. Depressing, but pretty much as anticipated. Thanks for responding.

I regret to say that family circumstances are going to keep me from participating on CF for awhile, but perhaps the topic will generate further responses. Even if circumstances weren't such as they are, I try to limit myself to 300 posts per forum before moving on and had intended this thread as my CF swan song anyway.
 
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topher694

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I have actually concluded - I assume you'll disagree - that the version of Christianity exhibited here is closer to a mental illness than a religion. Nothing personal - I'm sure you're all lovely people.
It's mental illness if people don't see things your way? Good to know. Bummer you're leaving the rest of us without the honor of your presence and insight into our mental state.
 
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Al Touthentop

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I've been studying world religions in a general way. (This is about the only way they can be studied, unless you have 15 years to devote to each one.)

Many Christians seem to me not to have any grasp of just how many religions there really are, or of how ancient, deep and sophisticated many of them are.

None of those however have God through his prophets predicting that a man would be born thousands of years after the prophecies were uttered and exactly what he would preach when he got here.

Paul writes that God wanted us to grope for him and eventually find him. It was he who set up this exclusivity because he wanted us to find him, not Buddha, Astarte or Ahsteroth. Why he hated man-made religions was that those religions didn't provide worshipers anything real or concrete.

"Tell us the things that are to come, so that we may know that you are gods. Yes, do something good or evil, that we may look on together in dismay. 24 Behold, you are nothing and your work is of no value. Anyone who chooses you is detestable."

It's true that there are some really deep and meaningful teachings in other religions. But none actually provide anything concrete other than good feelings - even if they teach good works. They may even have groped and found common truth. Just because Buddah may not have come to God and obeyed, doesn't mean that some of the things he said weren't true. They just, in my opinion, weren't all the truth or the whole truth.

I may be irrational to you, but I think God provided his word because he wants us to receive actual benefits from our worship, not just good feelings about ourselves.

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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I have indeed been "born again." I had very vivid and unexpected born-again experience when I was 20 (50 years ago). I served with Campus Crusade and attended a Southern Baptist seminary. I have preached in Baptist churches and been published in Christian periodicals. But thanks for asking.

The Holy Spirit? Yes, I believe that I have seen the workings of the Holy Spirit throughout my life. I am working on a book manuscript concerning this at this very moment. But thanks for asking.

The responses are pretty much as anticipated. Depressing, but pretty much as anticipated. Thanks for responding.

I regret to say that family circumstances are going to keep me from participating on CF for awhile, but perhaps the topic will generate further responses. Even if circumstances weren't such as they are, I try to limit myself to 300 posts per forum before moving on and had intended this thread as my CF swan song anyway.

Yet you do not bellieve in the exclusivity of Lord Jesus who says He is the only Way to the Father?
 
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Al Touthentop

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I have indeed been "born again." I had very vivid and unexpected born-again experience when I was 20 (50 years ago). I served with Campus Crusade and attended a Southern Baptist seminary. I have preached in Baptist churches and been published in Christian periodicals. But thanks for asking.

Do you think that the Jesus who commanded you to be born again was lying when he said the only way to the father was through him?

I am also extremely interested in the scriptures where being born again is described as an experience that just happens to a person at some random time in their life.
 
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zippy2006

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Must the Bible verses that support exclusivity ("There is no other name," "No one comes unto the Father," etc.) really be understood in terms of worldwide exclusivity?

The essence of Christianity is the ontological uniqueness of Jesus Christ, and denials of exclusivity are generally tied up in denials of this. For example:

Like some of the other most divisive doctrines (e.g., the deity of Jesus, the Trinity), the biblical support is thin indeed for doctrines with such vast consequences.

If you're going to throw out things like Christ's deity and the Trinity then you may as well throw out exclusivity. Granted, you may as well also throw out Christianity.

Really though, if you want to have a serious discussion you have to define what you mean by "exclusivity." I wrote a little bit on the topic in this post.
 
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topher694

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So let me pose a question to those reading this. If you read the following in a vacuum, not knowing anything whatsoever about who wrote it, what would you think?

  • I study world religions
  • Many Christians do not have any grasp on other religions, especially the major ones
  • Hinduism is fantastically profound
  • I will work out my own salvation
  • Christians view non-Christians as ghastly and think they deserve to go hell (the place)
  • Christians wear blinders
  • Jesus as the only way is problematic
  • Jesus as the only way is mental masturbation
  • Jesus as the only way has little to do with the real world
  • Jesus as the only way is a biblical prison driven by fear and insecurity
  • Deep down Christians know that Jesus as the only way cannot be correct
  • Don't try to change my mind with the Bible
  • I have concluded that this version of Christianity is closer to mental illness than religion
Then, having leveled those accusations, this person disappeared, unwilling to backup any of their accusations due to a self-imposed arbitrary numerical mandate; What would you think?

I think many of the conclusions are obvious.

I think such a person made this their (next to) last post on purpose because they desire only to lash out and insult as many readers as possible. Knowing ahead of time that he/she would be protected by their self-imposed absence. There's a word for such behavior, but I'll leave it to others to fill in that blank.
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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I think such a person made this their (next to) last post on purpose because they desire only to lash out and insult as many readers as possible. Knowing ahead of time that he/she would be protected by their self-imposed absence. There's a word for such behavior, but I'll leave it to others to fill in that blank.
I agree with you, and what i think is against forum rules so I will abstain from posting it.
 
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