Christian churches supporting Trump

[DamianWarS]

Canada has had fewer world wars, civil wars, slaves, revolutions, fewer waves of immigration from fewer continents, borders with 3 world countries, and more.

Party affiliation / Absolutely certain Believe in God/ Fairly certain Believe in God


Republican/ 73% /17%
No leanings/ 62% 20%
Democrat/ 55% 21%

Belief in God by political party - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics - Pew Research Center

Canada’s Changing Religious Landscape

I'm not really sure your point... we're different so we can't compare? Not every argument is best defended in an American vacuum.

 

[Pedra]

hi all I hope the love of God surrounds you today and great to see this has continued in a gracious manner. I do agree there's a lot of misconstrued statements in the press but you could argue there are also certain facts about trump that can't be denied. I'd like to respond and comment to a few people who've commented since yesterday before I propose another angle to our discussion.



I'd like to question then did the Lord god miraculously put Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin and others in power who've used mass murder on an industrial scale? Let's assume yes. Let's not get into the why, god works in mysterious ways. We as a world took action to remove them. We prayed for God to act, and I would suggest God led great leaders to take the fight to those evil governments. Biblicy, we should have just let them get on with it yes, let them take our country and massacre who they want? Because we're not to speak evil of our leaders (let's assume 'our' means all leaders). In theory it doesn't matter, with eternal life as long as we love god and build his church here no matter how painful the death we won't care in heaven.

If that's not the case then it affects the smallest instance of a leader acting immorally or in an evil way. If God called leaders and people to fight against Hitler, then you could argue God can call people to 'fight' in any way against leaders they feel are evil in 'some way. When I say evil let's face it all sins are equal and God hates the sins of the man or woman who lies as much as one who commits mass genocide.

It's an intriguing train of thought - because you can't have it both ways. The scripture seems to suggest we should not fight against oppression as the early church didn't fight against the terrifying oppression of the romans. What is different to ISIS and the Chinese or the Russians or whoever you think are the evil enemy now. Should we not welcome them with open arms to our countries and turn the other cheek as they take over?

Or does God also call us to act and we are the instrument of change in some cases? Does God call 'some of us to act' and that is their own journey with God that others cannot judge (because he is the ONLY judge let's remember).



Actually the church is strong in the UK the evangelical movement is fast growing and we have a very diverse range of churches. The Church of England maybe a relic of the past but is still a vital part of every community. Hillsong alone attracts 10,000 people every sunday in central london.

I'm very glad we gave up firearms since our gun crime rate is almost non existent. Even our police aren't armed (except very specially trained squads). Also if we're following scripture here why would you need a gun?

As for Brexit, i saw this fantastic allegory.

I’m not saying there wasn’t a democratic mandate for Brexit at the time. I’m just saying if I narrowly decided to order fish at a restaurant that was known for chicken, but said it was happy to offer fish, and so far I’ve been waiting three hours, and two chefs who promised to cook the fish had quit, and the third one is promising to deliver the fish in the next five minutes whether it’s cooked or not, or indeed still alive, and all the waiting staff have spent the last few hours arguing amongst themselves about whether I wanted battered cod, grilled salmon, jellied eels or dolphin kebabs, and if large parts of the restaurant appeared to be on fire but no-one was paying attention to it because they were all arguing about fish, I would quite like, just once, to be asked if I definitely still wanted the fish.

The original vote was a game by Cameron to gain power, it backfired. The Leave campaign were not seen for dust - did they come out to celebrate their victory? No it was a political game that backfired for everyone involved. Surely if they had actually wanted to win they would have come out going this is amazing it's what you wanted and we're going to lead you to victory. Nope. not a peep. The leave campaign was allegedely illegally funded, possibly had russian interference, and lied about what the country would gain.

Given so much has changed it's why we want another referendum based on what is actually now on offer not vague promises from several years ago.



We actually banned American chicken as it doesn't come up to the standards of European food standards so I'd be careful about criticising chinese chicken

Trump's tariffs don't help - here's how. American producers of products in china have to raise prices or eat the difference to absorb the tarrifs on products they commission to be made in china. (it's mostly US companies making products in china that get hurt the worst). Likely they'll eat the difference to stay competitive, which means lower margins and can lead to staff cuts or even closures. There is no production base for many industries in the US or not enough capacity and if they have capacity they're very expensive, few companies will make multi-million investments to increase their capacity because Trump 'might' bring in a tariff or might keep it in place. He cancels them or brings them in on a whim that's no basis for manufacturing investment. You also bring in food internationally as do we since it's more commercial to grow other things in the US as farmers. The reality of massive global economies is we grow things where it makes more sense.

Let's dial that down to the US level - is every state self sufficient making and growing everything it needs no, it grows and produces what it's best at. So steel works happen in certain areas, farming is best in certain areas and is shipped around the country where it's needed the most. As the world has grown we now do that on a global scale. West Africa is fantastic at growing food and ships all kind of vegetables and fruits in to Europe. some countries can make steel more easily, more cheaply (let's say they're closer to the big deposits).

As to Global Warming, of course, it's a BIG issue. Do you realise for it to be a massive global conspiracy literally millions of people would have to be in on it - there's plenty of examples of oil companies funding the lobbying to disprove climate change. Pretty much all the major scientists in the world agree it's happening to some degree.

ExxonMobil climate change controversy - Wikipedia
Top oil firms spending millions lobbying to block climate change policies, says report

I'll suggest a logical answer to this:

1) you agree with climate change and your wrong - millions of trees planted, cleaner air for your children, cleaner energy, a generally healthier and prettier world but it costs money of course

2) You agree with climate change and your right - maybe just maybe you help reduce the effect of climate change and save millions from suffering

3) you disagree with climate change and your right - we'll all be very thankful in years to come that the potential disasters don't come to pass.

4) you disagree with climage change and you're wrong - millions suffer or die, wars, famine, civilisation possibly is in danger of collapsing.

- So if I'm wrong the world is fine, if you are wrong millions could die, I know which side of the bet I'd rather be on...

And lastly I ask you this IF you're wrong and you have convinced others not to work to help avert climate change would you agree to be criminally liable for those who die and lose their livilhoods? do you deny climate change that much?




Id agree - of course it comes down to whether we agree Trump is wicked and godless. That's another discussion. But in principle would you all agree you should not support the wicked behaviour of a leader or you should?



So if this is the case why do US churches get so involved... I'm guessing because of the desire to see change in LGBT and abortion laws?



I would suggest that Trump maybe asking you to violate your faith by endorsing camps that abuse innocents, by encouraging you to be racist, to laugh at women. I could easily provide many many direct complete quotes of tweets which are racist or sexist.



If the soldiers come to round up people of one colour or faith, what can and can't you do? Is one called to pray, and another called to act. We cannot and should not judge. So if one woman is called to pick up the gun and shoot those who are evil, whether she feels called by god to do so, it will be between her and god, and not for us to say don't do that or encourage others to do so. Does that sound right?



Actually muslims have been credited with a lot that we should be thankful for such as

• Surgery. Around the year 1,000, the celebrated doctor Al Zahrawi published a 1,500 page illustrated encyclopedia of surgery that was used in Europe as a medical reference for the next 500 years. ...
• Coffee. ...
• Flying machine. ...
• University. ...
• Algebra. ...
• Optics. ...
• Music. ...
• Toothbrush.
• Crank (mechanical device)
• Hospitals

In fact Muhammad decreed Christians should be protected - check this out:

The Ashtiname of Muhammad, also known as the Covenant or Testament (Testamentum) of Muhammad (the Islamic Prophet), is a document which is a charter or writ ratified by the Islamic Prophet Muhammad granting protection and other privileges to the followers of Jesus the Nazarene, given to the Christian monks of Saint Catherine's Monastery. It is sealed with an imprint representing Muhammad's hand.[1]
Ashtiname of Muhammad - Wikipedia

Christians had freedoms long before the great crusades, it was the lustful emperors and leaders that sent men to die in the crusades in their quest for power and glory that has likely led to christians being more persecuted over the centuries. The pain and suffering of the middle east can be traced back a long long way and we continue to make it worse.



Britain is amazing because of the immigration - the romans bought people from all over the middle east, the vikings brought more, and so on. There's plenty of evidence that immigrants generate more tax that the average Brit EU migrant workers contribute £2,300 more per year to UK than average British citizen, study reveals

Generally immigrants come here to do skilled work - builders, plumbers, doctors, nurses, and so on. Our country is great because of the diversity. I love the fact I walk down my street and hear russian, french, german, italian and other accents.

We're also not the stabbing capital of the world you might want to check the crime stats here which show the US as far far worse:
How London's homicide rate stacks up against major US cities - CNN

It's more fake news that people like Trump like to highlight.

Sadly we now believe Trump is affecting the world which is why we're all so concerned, and of course, if you're not allowed to criticise your leader maybe biblically we are

Lastly I wanted to bring up a final point. I believe the desire to support Trump through churches is because you'll be able to change laws about LGBT and abortion. God tells us to love everyone no matter who they are, hate the sin, love the sinner. Is the church commanded therefore to be political and demand political change? The bible teaches us not to fear, not to worry about the world. Why are the American churches therefore spending so much energy on this fear of LGBT rights for example to drive the support for Trump because he's the worst best choice? Trump has bred that fear in the public, that is not Christian, and the church should not let itself be deceived to spread that fear. Am I wrong in that reasoning?

I'll leave that with you all, off to enjoy the gorgeous sunshine in London and I pray you all feel God's loving embrace this weekend wherever you are.

I respect your right to your own political views, but you lost me as soon as I saw the comparison to Pol Pot and hitler. The UK is very liberal left/ progressive in their political views & so are their Media. Btw, Islam as a whole has a long history of persecuting Jews, Christians & other religious miniorities - convert or die or live as second class citizens in dhimmitude. You are misrepresenting the Crusades also.

 

[Gideons300]

Local government is the working of the Fathers will on earth.

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

1 Peter 2
13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.

Titus 3
1 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

John 19
10 So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

Psalms 22
28 For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations.

Proverbs 21
1 The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will.

1 Timothy 2
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,

Daniel 2
21 He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding;

Deuteronomy 16
18 “You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment. You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality, and you shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause of the righteous. Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

Proverbs 8
15 By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;

So those Christians living in North Korea are to support the actions of the dictator? Just curious. Those who lived in Germany in WW2 were out of God's will if they resisted Hitler? Obeying the law and supporting godless actions of leaders are two totally different things.

 

[Mayflower1]

I am interested to hear them and will give you my opinions - this is still a discussion not an argument. I'm interested in the justifications you have and whether there's a bigger picture at work. It seems to be, if I'm right, that you'll ignore the sins of Trump because he's politically delivering the solutions you've been hoping a president would.

How do you justify ignoring those sins since the bible, at least to me, appears to suggest a leader like this should be above reproach. In the bible are there quotes that say you can ignore a leaders personal life?

Trump is making it 'ok' for the wider public to act in ungodly ways - to be racist, to be sexist, to be abusive to others. Does that not undo the good he's supposedly doing for Christian hopes in politics?

From my understanding those verses of an overseer are for leadership of a church. A president isn't leadership over a church, because there are many different religions in the United States. While I would trust a Christian man more, I cannot trust someone who says they are a Christian and supports abortion. I also believe illegal immigration is like shoplifting. It is very damaging and we need to have borders, so that immigration can be done the right way. I also like to see Christian's rights being fought for. And no one has supported Israel like President Trump has. The Bible talks about how God dealt with evil/prideful Kings, but gave us clear guidelines how we are to pray for our leaders and submit to them. All I see are people wanting to destroy President Trump and that is sin also. When people don't submit to their leaders, this is when division takes place. And division leads to a fall. And other countries contribute to this division by taking sides also. If media stuck to the issues and talked about character equally between all candidates, that would be different. That would give voters information as to what to expect when they vote. But I don't know what to believe anymore in the media. And politics do not belong in church. I am thankful I don't hear about politics in the church. Though things are being taken into account in this next election, I could never in clear conscience vote for anyone who supported abortion. And out of all the candidates, President Trump is the only one who does not. God views all sin the same. Open and hidden. I have to judge policy, because I don't know this man personally. Only what media makes him out to be. I see things being fought for and Democratic leaders refusing to work with President Trump when he should have the final authority.

 

[SkyWriting]

So those Christians living in North Korea are to support the actions of the dictator? Just curious. Those who lived in Germany in WW2 were out of God's will if they resisted Hitler? Obeying the law and supporting godless actions of leaders are two totally different things.

I never mentioned either one so.....

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.

1 Peter 2:13-17
Titus 3
1 Timothy 2
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13:7
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1
Romans 13:4
Proverbs 21
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11
Colossians 1:15-17
Acts 8:32
Matthew 10:38

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

I supported Trump because Trump was hands down the best candidate. Not even close. No need to make it more complicated than that...

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

Before this gets too off topic and there is too much flaming, a clean up will be done. ​