Christian churches supporting Trump

[Tigger45]

Trump is conservative Christians second wartime general. Reagan the first. We will take Patton with his dirty mouth over someone who speaks gently and does't want to stir up trouble.

Draft dodging General is the quintessential oxymoron.

 

[DennisTate]

I am a Christian who supports President Trump and I believe that the media is against him because of his going after human trafficking................ which a tiny segment of extremely wealthy people did not want to happen.

In reference to climate change I've been promoting an alternative theory since 2007...

"So how is our problem of continental drying causing global warming? It all has to do with vegetation and sunlight. When sun light hits a plant, it causes a process which we call photosynthesis where the energy from the sun light creates oxygen for us to breathe, water for us to drink, and is stored as sugar for plants and animals to use. When the same sun light hits the soil, all of its energy turns into heat and is radiated back into the atmosphere.. ."

"Therefore, the less vegetation you have on the planet, the more sunlight is being turned into heat and the warmer the planet becomes...."

"Just take a look at any satellite picture of the earth showing heat and you will see that our deserts are the warmest spots on the planet by far. More heat is being generated by just one of the top four or five deserts than by all of our cities combined.... "

"The truth is that you can do more to decrease global warming by just reducing the average temperature for the Sahara Desert by one or two degrees than if we humans completely quit using fossil fuels and returned to the cave…."

"So, how would you start working to resolve this problem? Easy, cool the deserts and get some vegetation growing on them as soon as possible. But the method is much more complex than that. You have to use the prevailing trade winds in relation to the deserts to get the best results as quickly as possible and it will be extremely expensive…."

"Then we build desalination plants along the coast near these water sheds and pipe water to the tops or ridges of the water sheds…"

"We need to start working on this as soon as possible because, if the planet reaches a point to where it is warming faster than our technology can possibly stop or reverse this warming trend, then our planet is lost and all life will cease to exist on this planet within a relatively short period of time. We will need to start with the largest and hottest deserts because cooling them will have the greatest benefit in the least time (Global Warming II by biologist Carl Cantrell)."

We Canadians produce less than two percent of global atmospheric emissions..... .what effect does it have on the threat of rising ocean levels if we spend tens of billions of dollars on a carbon tax????

None.... A carbon tax might take a century or more to assist against the threat of rising ocean levels........ on the other hand.. . Isaiah 35
has some good suggestions that fit with......

Cheap Water from the World’s Largest Modern Seawater Desalination Plant

Im a British Christian involved in the Hillsong church here in London. I’m politically active because I don’t think you can be a Christian and not take part and highlight issues.

Seeing the evangelical church support Trump has been a constant painful experience as non Christian friends simply cannot comphrehend why Christians would support such an individual who is clearly not Christian.

Due to the influence of the us on the world and trumps policies which are damaging international issues such as climate change I feel we as a church should be doing what we can to question the leaders in the us who support trump and bring about change within our church.

I’d love to hear from Christians who support trump and what your bible based reasoning is, and those who feel action needs to be taken and how we can do that responsibly and with love. Criticising and telling church leaders they are wrong is a difficult concept but has its precedence in the New Testament when many churches went off the tracks.

We must live by the standards of Jesus. If you truly ask yourself if Jesus would act like Trump the answer can only be a clear no.

This is not a discussion to throw hatred but to find out what is driving Christian trump supporters and how we as a church can act to make change

 

[Jonaitis]

I wonder why people think that the President is against same-sex marriage when he clearly supports the LGBT. He was on the sidelines with abortion during his campaign. Have people forgotten 2016 already?

 

[Cis.jd]

What are you talking about??? In relation to governmental/political power, St. Paul wrote that power comes from God.

I'm talking about separation of church and state.

So we should obey the authorities unless they command us to violate our own faith.

No, but a church should not teach politics. You didn't understand the context of my arguments, because what does "violating our own faith" have anything to do with my point?

What I am saying is that churches are supposed to be about the gospel, it shouldn't voice out it's political views. One realistic reason why is because people have different political views regardless of their religious beliefs. What if there are immigrant attendees, or members who are recovering from a sin or hurtful past that involves sexual contact? How do you think they would feel that the church they go to supports a guy who talked about groping women?

The world should take a backseat during your time of worship. This is the time when an earthly being gives his/her time to escape the world and be at an environment or social circle in where he/she can focus all thoughts on the creator which is why politics and world views shouldn't not make it's way in any circle.

In particular, the American tradition is and has always been that religion has a place in public life and the government should largely stay out of religious matters; religion, by contrast, is not obligated to say out of political matters. That doesn't make getting involved with political matters a good idea. But it's hardly unusual in America's history.

Yup. The government should stay away from religious matters and vise versa.

Next, Matthew 22:21 fits more on this topic than your reference of Roman's 13, because that verse you quoted doesn't mean political views should be shared/taught at church. At the same time we also know that God doesn't ordain every leader in history, because if that was completely true as phrased then we are forced to say that God ordained Caligula, Hitler, Kim Jong, Pol Pot, and whoever leader/ruler that murdered millions of people.

 

[thecolorsblend]

No, but a church should not teach politics.

Abortion is a political issue. My Church is the same as yours and she has a viewpoint on that issue.

You really didn't understand the context of my arguments

I understand quite well. I'm also a bit fed up with Christians embracing asinine (but "principled") policy positions that achieve nothing except weakening their influence.

what does "violating our own faith" have anything to do with my point?

I mentioned that to illustrate one of the few circumstances when Christians are permitted to disobey government.

Churches are supposed to be about the gospel, it shouldn't voice out it's political views. One realistic reason why is because people have different political views regardless of their religious beliefs.

And there are certain issues which transcend the political realm and are moral in nature. On those issues, the Church has no choice but to speak up.

Yup. The government should stay away from religious matters

Indeed.

and vise versa

No.

Not everybody in the government believes in God, and not everybody in your church has the same political views.

On the moral issues which the Church has dogmatically defined, they bloody well better have the same views or else they have a serious problem.

Next, Matthew 22:21 fits more of this topic than your reference of Roman's 13

Of course it does. Because it's completely unrelated to what we're discussing so I can see why you're attracted to it.

The point, however, remains. St. Paul wrote that Christians are normally supposed to be obedient to the political authorities. Pointing out the lone major exception to that seems to be a big distraction for you so I won't repeat what that exception is here, except to say than an exception does exist.

, because that verse you quoted doesn't mean politics should be voiced out in a gathering dedicated to God, and at the same time we also know that God doesn't ordain every leader in history, because if that was completely true as phrased then we are forced to say that God ordained Caligula, Hitler, Kim Jong, Pol Pot, and whoever leader/ruler that murdered millions of people.

Are you saying it was beyond God's power to stop those men from attaining political office?

Bro, you're really digging yourself a hole here.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Abortion is a political issue. My Church is the same as yours and she has a viewpoint on that issue.

I understand quite well. I'm also a bit fed up with Christians embracing asinine (but "principled") policy positions that achieve nothing except weakening their influence.

I mentioned that to illustrate one of the few circumstances when Christians are permitted to disobey government.

And there are certain issues which transcend the political realm and are moral in nature. On those issues, the Church has no choice but to speak up.

Indeed.

No.

On the moral issues which the Church has dogmatically defined, they bloody well better have the same views or else they have a serious problem.

Of course it does. Because it's completely unrelated to what we're discussing so I can see why you're attracted to it.

The point, however, remains. St. Paul wrote that Christians are normally supposed to be obedient to the political authorities. Pointing out the lone major exception to that seems to be a big distraction for you so I won't repeat what that exception is here, except to say than an exception does exist.

Are you saying it was beyond God's power to stop those men from attaining political office?

Bro, you're really digging yourself a hole here.

The Bible says thou shalt not kill.

Abortion is a spiritual Christian issue.

God commands us not to kill and not to support killing.

 

[DamianWarS]

Polarization is a world wide phenomenon resulting from the free flow of ideas due to technology. If we reduce the world to 0 to 4 channels of TV with no internet then the world will once again be peaceful. But the odds are slim that will happen.

apparently not the same way in Canada. you could pretend nothing is really going on or reconize that other countries have systems in place that prevent these things

 

[mindlight]

Im a British Christian involved in the Hillsong church here in London. I’m politically active because I don’t think you can be a Christian and not take part and highlight issues.

Seeing the evangelical church support Trump has been a constant painful experience as non Christian friends simply cannot comphrehend why Christians would support such an individual who is clearly not Christian.

Due to the influence of the us on the world and trumps policies which are damaging international issues such as climate change I feel we as a church should be doing what we can to question the leaders in the us who support trump and bring about change within our church.

I’d love to hear from Christians who support trump and what your bible based reasoning is, and those who feel action needs to be taken and how we can do that responsibly and with love. Criticising and telling church leaders they are wrong is a difficult concept but has its precedence in the New Testament when many churches went off the tracks.

We must live by the standards of Jesus. If you truly ask yourself if Jesus would act like Trump the answer can only be a clear no.

This is not a discussion to throw hatred but to find out what is driving Christian trump supporters and how we as a church can act to make change

As a British myself living in Germany I also am continually bombarded by anti Trump rhetoric and it would be easy and convenient to simply go along with the cheap jokes and antiAmericanism that loves to mock and slander what it does not understand. So I applaud your effort to understand why Trump is winning the churches vote in the USA.

He has done some good things: appointment of pro Christian Supreme Court justices for instance and the elimination of Daesh.

But also I think you have to look at the Democrat party overwhelmingly support of pro abortion, pro Gay marriage , moral relativistic policies and the large number of anti Christian atheists in the party.

Trump is not a perfect man but then who is. His sins are America's sins also however - adultery, divorce and an exaggerated self assertion that can seem deceitful and narcissistic to many. Christians appear ready to forgive the man's personal sin for the sake of getting certain things done.

The three big things I do not like about Trump are that he is alienating NATO allies and debt financing boosts to American defence expenditure and his inconsistent borderline racist immigration policy.

 

[SkyWriting]

apparently not the same way in Canada. you could pretend nothing is really going on or reconize that other countries have systems in place that prevent these things

What you talking bout, Willis?

Increased Polarization on Attitudes to Immigration Reshaping the Political Landscape in Canada

 

[jameseb]

This is not a discussion to throw hatred but to find out what is driving Christian trump supporters and how we as a church can act to make change

I find your question slightly rigged. However, as a Christian who voted for Trump, I will say my cast wasn't necessarily for Trump as much as it was against Clinton, a child abortion advocate. I consider it nothing short of murder.

 

[Anguspure]

Im a British Christian involved in the Hillsong church here in London. I’m politically active because I don’t think you can be a Christian and not take part and highlight issues.

Seeing the evangelical church support Trump has been a constant painful experience as non Christian friends simply cannot comphrehend why Christians would support such an individual who is clearly not Christian.

Due to the influence of the us on the world and trumps policies which are damaging international issues such as climate change I feel we as a church should be doing what we can to question the leaders in the us who support trump and bring about change within our church.

I’d love to hear from Christians who support trump and what your bible based reasoning is, and those who feel action needs to be taken and how we can do that responsibly and with love. Criticising and telling church leaders they are wrong is a difficult concept but has its precedence in the New Testament when many churches went off the tracks.

We must live by the standards of Jesus. If you truly ask yourself if Jesus would act like Trump the answer can only be a clear no.

This is not a discussion to throw hatred but to find out what is driving Christian trump supporters and how we as a church can act to make change

Even a number of staunch socialists that I know recognize that Trump was a necessary evil in the face of the alternative that presented itself at election. The alternative was murderous to the vulnerable and ideologically dangerous.
I would suggest that the perceived support of Trump is in recognition of the strong support he has offered for the causes that people believe in, the support of which is more fundamental than the things he does not support.
If the left wish to blame anybody for Trump they should first take a long hard look at themselves in a position of power.

 

[ChrisBirchLondon]

hi all I hope the love of God surrounds you today and great to see this has continued in a gracious manner. I do agree there's a lot of misconstrued statements in the press but you could argue there are also certain facts about trump that can't be denied. I'd like to respond and comment to a few people who've commented since yesterday before I propose another angle to our discussion.

Oh well, I will not try to change your view but I disagree with you completely.
I know that the LORD God is sovereign and is WHO miraculously put Donald Trump in the White house in an answer to Christian prayer to hold back the evil for just a brief time longer, that is waiting to take over.

I'd like to question then did the Lord god miraculously put Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin and others in power who've used mass murder on an industrial scale? Let's assume yes. Let's not get into the why, god works in mysterious ways. We as a world took action to remove them. We prayed for God to act, and I would suggest God led great leaders to take the fight to those evil governments. Biblicy, we should have just let them get on with it yes, let them take our country and massacre who they want? Because we're not to speak evil of our leaders (let's assume 'our' means all leaders). In theory it doesn't matter, with eternal life as long as we love god and build his church here no matter how painful the death we won't care in heaven.

If that's not the case then it affects the smallest instance of a leader acting immorally or in an evil way. If God called leaders and people to fight against Hitler, then you could argue God can call people to 'fight' in any way against leaders they feel are evil in 'some way. When I say evil let's face it all sins are equal and God hates the sins of the man or woman who lies as much as one who commits mass genocide.

It's an intriguing train of thought - because you can't have it both ways. The scripture seems to suggest we should not fight against oppression as the early church didn't fight against the terrifying oppression of the romans. What is different to ISIS and the Chinese or the Russians or whoever you think are the evil enemy now. Should we not welcome them with open arms to our countries and turn the other cheek as they take over?

Or does God also call us to act and we are the instrument of change in some cases? Does God call 'some of us to act' and that is their own journey with God that others cannot judge (because he is the ONLY judge let's remember).

Those two historic facts help explain why the Church is still strong in America today, and all but dead in England. It also explains why you've given up your firearms and we refuse to.

Oh, and speaking of the UK...how's that three-year delayed Brexit vote working out for you? Whether you agree or disagree with Brexit, the fact that your government has decided to simply ignore the democratic results of a lawful referendum should be quite concerning. If that happened here, I'm sure bullets would be flying in short order.

Actually the church is strong in the UK the evangelical movement is fast growing and we have a very diverse range of churches. The Church of England maybe a relic of the past but is still a vital part of every community. Hillsong alone attracts 10,000 people every sunday in central london.

I'm very glad we gave up firearms since our gun crime rate is almost non existent. Even our police aren't armed (except very specially trained squads). Also if we're following scripture here why would you need a gun?

As for Brexit, i saw this fantastic allegory.

I’m not saying there wasn’t a democratic mandate for Brexit at the time. I’m just saying if I narrowly decided to order fish at a restaurant that was known for chicken, but said it was happy to offer fish, and so far I’ve been waiting three hours, and two chefs who promised to cook the fish had quit, and the third one is promising to deliver the fish in the next five minutes whether it’s cooked or not, or indeed still alive, and all the waiting staff have spent the last few hours arguing amongst themselves about whether I wanted battered cod, grilled salmon, jellied eels or dolphin kebabs, and if large parts of the restaurant appeared to be on fire but no-one was paying attention to it because they were all arguing about fish, I would quite like, just once, to be asked if I definitely still wanted the fish.

The original vote was a game by Cameron to gain power, it backfired. The Leave campaign were not seen for dust - did they come out to celebrate their victory? No it was a political game that backfired for everyone involved. Surely if they had actually wanted to win they would have come out going this is amazing it's what you wanted and we're going to lead you to victory. Nope. not a peep. The leave campaign was allegedely illegally funded, possibly had russian interference, and lied about what the country would gain.

Given so much has changed it's why we want another referendum based on what is actually now on offer not vague promises from several years ago.

So the message from Trump to the world is - TAKE CARE OF YOURSELVES, DONT LEAN ON US ANYMORE AND PAY YOUR OWN SHARE.
CHINA may play ball with our new trade deals, if not, WE WILL FIND OTHER COUNTRIES TO REPLACE THEM. I've been hoping for this to happen - to wean ourselves off Chinese products. Besides, they have low standards, have even tried to poison our toys with lead and so be careful, ultimately, they want to rule the world. Ain't gonna happen any time soon. Btw, dont eat their food, dogs are dying from chicken jerky made over there - mine almost did.
As for your Global Warming, it's the biggest fraud perpetrated on humans. It is a disguise for global governance, which starts with all countries (with the USA being the biggest challenge) to relinquish their sovereignty and redistribute the wealth in order to become a One World Government. This is the Left's move towards GLOBALISM. False data, governments, scientists, cohearsed into complying - with the media right behind them, all conspiring towards this goal. Not on Trump's watch.

We actually banned American chicken as it doesn't come up to the standards of European food standards so I'd be careful about criticising chinese chicken

Trump's tariffs don't help - here's how. American producers of products in china have to raise prices or eat the difference to absorb the tarrifs on products they commission to be made in china. (it's mostly US companies making products in china that get hurt the worst). Likely they'll eat the difference to stay competitive, which means lower margins and can lead to staff cuts or even closures. There is no production base for many industries in the US or not enough capacity and if they have capacity they're very expensive, few companies will make multi-million investments to increase their capacity because Trump 'might' bring in a tariff or might keep it in place. He cancels them or brings them in on a whim that's no basis for manufacturing investment. You also bring in food internationally as do we since it's more commercial to grow other things in the US as farmers. The reality of massive global economies is we grow things where it makes more sense.

Let's dial that down to the US level - is every state self sufficient making and growing everything it needs no, it grows and produces what it's best at. So steel works happen in certain areas, farming is best in certain areas and is shipped around the country where it's needed the most. As the world has grown we now do that on a global scale. West Africa is fantastic at growing food and ships all kind of vegetables and fruits in to Europe. some countries can make steel more easily, more cheaply (let's say they're closer to the big deposits).

As to Global Warming, of course, it's a BIG issue. Do you realise for it to be a massive global conspiracy literally millions of people would have to be in on it - there's plenty of examples of oil companies funding the lobbying to disprove climate change. Pretty much all the major scientists in the world agree it's happening to some degree.

ExxonMobil climate change controversy - Wikipedia
Top oil firms spending millions lobbying to block climate change policies, says report

I'll suggest a logical answer to this:

1) you agree with climate change and your wrong - millions of trees planted, cleaner air for your children, cleaner energy, a generally healthier and prettier world but it costs money of course

2) You agree with climate change and your right - maybe just maybe you help reduce the effect of climate change and save millions from suffering

3) you disagree with climate change and your right - we'll all be very thankful in years to come that the potential disasters don't come to pass.

4) you disagree with climage change and you're wrong - millions suffer or die, wars, famine, civilisation possibly is in danger of collapsing.

- So if I'm wrong the world is fine, if you are wrong millions could die, I know which side of the bet I'd rather be on...

And lastly I ask you this IF you're wrong and you have convinced others not to work to help avert climate change would you agree to be criminally liable for those who die and lose their livilhoods? do you deny climate change that much?

You remember that next time a Dem is in the White House. Beyond that we are under no obligation to support the wicked godless behavior of any king.

Id agree - of course it comes down to whether we agree Trump is wicked and godless. That's another discussion. But in principle would you all agree you should not support the wicked behaviour of a leader or you should?

Any church that voices support for politics should not be listened to. The churches job is to help people live better lives spiritually through a relationship with Jesus Christ. It should not talk about it's political views or who ever political person they support. You are a church, be a church.. the government is outside of God's walls so leave it there.

So if this is the case why do US churches get so involved... I'm guessing because of the desire to see change in LGBT and abortion laws?

What are you talking about??? In relation to governmental/political power, St. Paul wrote that power comes from God.

So we should obey the authorities unless they command us to violate our own faith.

In particular, the American tradition is and has always been that religion has a place in public life and the government should largely stay out of religious matters; religion, by contrast, is not obligated to say out of political matters. That doesn't make getting involved with political matters a good idea. But it's hardly unusual in America's history.

I would suggest that Trump maybe asking you to violate your faith by endorsing camps that abuse innocents, by encouraging you to be racist, to laugh at women. I could easily provide many many direct complete quotes of tweets which are racist or sexist.

All earthly governments are ordained of God. However, this doesn't mean that God endorses them or even supports them. He simply permits them to be to keep wickedness in check. Human governments are just fallen humans trying to govern other fallen humans. And earthly governments will always degenerate into tyranny. We should obey whatever laws are reasonable and for the common good, pay our taxes, and live peaceably with all men. However, when an earthly government passes laws that violate Christian faith, practice, or conviction... we should peacefully disobey.

Christ's Kingdom, our Kingdom, is not of this world. We do well not to become too entangled with it's political systems. They corrupt good manners. Our focus should be the Kingdom of God, the Body of Christ, the Church. We are strangers and pilgrims down here on this earth.

If the soldiers come to round up people of one colour or faith, what can and can't you do? Is one called to pray, and another called to act. We cannot and should not judge. So if one woman is called to pick up the gun and shoot those who are evil, whether she feels called by god to do so, it will be between her and god, and not for us to say don't do that or encourage others to do so. Does that sound right?

Excuse me for saying. Bible reading people created the free world. If it were not for that. You would neither be allowed to form Christian communities, probably not be allowed to own a home and definitely not be allowed to raise children. So if you consider those things you listed a Christian duty towards God. Then by default it is also your Christian duty maintain and expand the free world that is built on varying degree's of Bifocal principle.

Actually muslims have been credited with a lot that we should be thankful for such as

• Surgery. Around the year 1,000, the celebrated doctor Al Zahrawi published a 1,500 page illustrated encyclopedia of surgery that was used in Europe as a medical reference for the next 500 years. ...
• Coffee. ...
• Flying machine. ...
• University. ...
• Algebra. ...
• Optics. ...
• Music. ...
• Toothbrush.
• Crank (mechanical device)
• Hospitals

In fact Muhammad decreed Christians should be protected - check this out:

The Ashtiname of Muhammad, also known as the Covenant or Testament (Testamentum) of Muhammad (the Islamic Prophet), is a document which is a charter or writ ratified by the Islamic Prophet Muhammad granting protection and other privileges to the followers of Jesus the Nazarene, given to the Christian monks of Saint Catherine's Monastery. It is sealed with an imprint representing Muhammad's hand.[1]
Ashtiname of Muhammad - Wikipedia

Christians had freedoms long before the great crusades, it was the lustful emperors and leaders that sent men to die in the crusades in their quest for power and glory that has likely led to christians being more persecuted over the centuries. The pain and suffering of the middle east can be traced back a long long way and we continue to make it worse.

I would worry about the UK.
You have Brexit and a serious immigration problem as you know if you live in London, the stabbing capital of the world.
I’m tired of the UK thinking it can tell us how to “fix” our problems, when your economy stinks and ours is soaring, with record low unemployment.
Stay out of our politics. You guys voted in globalist May and she took you for a ride. I hope Boris is good for you.
I love all our Christian brothers and sisters around the world, but it’s deflection against your own issues and we don’t need it.
Make the UK great Boris.
God bless you.

Britain is amazing because of the immigration - the romans bought people from all over the middle east, the vikings brought more, and so on. There's plenty of evidence that immigrants generate more tax that the average Brit EU migrant workers contribute £2,300 more per year to UK than average British citizen, study reveals

Generally immigrants come here to do skilled work - builders, plumbers, doctors, nurses, and so on. Our country is great because of the diversity. I love the fact I walk down my street and hear russian, french, german, italian and other accents.

We're also not the stabbing capital of the world you might want to check the crime stats here which show the US as far far worse:
How London's homicide rate stacks up against major US cities - CNN

It's more fake news that people like Trump like to highlight.

Sadly we now believe Trump is affecting the world which is why we're all so concerned, and of course, if you're not allowed to criticise your leader maybe biblically we are

Lastly I wanted to bring up a final point. I believe the desire to support Trump through churches is because you'll be able to change laws about LGBT and abortion. God tells us to love everyone no matter who they are, hate the sin, love the sinner. Is the church commanded therefore to be political and demand political change? The bible teaches us not to fear, not to worry about the world. Why are the American churches therefore spending so much energy on this fear of LGBT rights for example to drive the support for Trump because he's the worst best choice? Trump has bred that fear in the public, that is not Christian, and the church should not let itself be deceived to spread that fear. Am I wrong in that reasoning?

I'll leave that with you all, off to enjoy the gorgeous sunshine in London and I pray you all feel God's loving embrace this weekend wherever you are.

 

[A_Thinker]

Im a British Christian involved in the Hillsong church here in London. I’m politically active because I don’t think you can be a Christian and not take part and highlight issues.

Seeing the evangelical church support Trump has been a constant painful experience as non Christian friends simply cannot comphrehend why Christians would support such an individual who is clearly not Christian.

Due to the influence of the us on the world and trumps policies which are damaging international issues such as climate change I feel we as a church should be doing what we can to question the leaders in the us who support trump and bring about change within our church.

I’d love to hear from Christians who support trump and what your bible based reasoning is, and those who feel action needs to be taken and how we can do that responsibly and with love. Criticising and telling church leaders they are wrong is a difficult concept but has its precedence in the New Testament when many churches went off the tracks.

We must live by the standards of Jesus. If you truly ask yourself if Jesus would act like Trump the answer can only be a clear no.

This is not a discussion to throw hatred but to find out what is driving Christian trump supporters and how we as a church can act to make change

ALL American Christian Evangelicals don't necessarily support Trump.

Perhaps the more vociferous ones.

The others are quietly going about the work that Christ came to do ...

Luke 4

14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

 

[Cis.jd]

Abortion is a political issue. My Church is the same as yours and she has a viewpoint on that issue.

I understand quite well. I'm also a bit fed up with Christians embracing asinine (but "principled") policy positions that achieve nothing except weakening their influence.

I don't think you understand what my points are. If the government starts forcing abortion, or SSM in our walls then yes we are supposed to voice out against it because it is already in violation of separation of church and state.

I mentioned that to illustrate one of the few circumstances when Christians are permitted to disobey government.
And there are certain issues which transcend the political realm and are moral in nature. On those issues, the Church has no choice but to speak up.

These circumstances goes for anybody, even non christians. The far-left is a good example of this. Anyway, what does this have to do with my argument? I've never said or argued about how Christians have to follow the government at every circumstance.

Indeed.No.
On the moral issues which the Church has dogmatically defined, they bloody well better have the same views or else they have a serious problem.

Lets go back to your referencing of abortion. Obviously being a Catholic, I think it's wrong. But I will not use Biblical verses to the government as a political basis to speak against it, because not everybody in the government believes in the Bible.

Of course it does. Because it's completely unrelated to what we're discussing so I can see why you're attracted to it.

The point, however, remains. St. Paul wrote that Christians are normally supposed to be obedient to the political authorities. Pointing out the lone major exception to that seems to be a big distraction for you so I won't repeat what that exception is here, except to say than an exception does exist.

Brother, you did not understand anything I said. Of course we are not supposed to follow everything the government issues when it is violating our religious beliefs.
The government shouldn't do that on any religion. For example, the government shouldn't make it illegal for muslim women to hajibs or to force Jewish citizens to work on Saturdays. So it can't force it's laws on certain religious beliefs.
Likewise, we can't force our religious beliefs on the government. Nor should we express or talk about our political beliefs (such as supporting trump or whoever) inside a church. Inside a church, our main focus is God.. bringing in political beliefs when not everybody inside the church agrees with it can cause others to leave because it is a sensitive topic.. and because of that it is dishonorable to God. If church members want to discuss politics, then do it on their own time when it is appropriate.

Are you saying it was beyond God's power to stop those men from attaining political office? Bro, you're really digging yourself a hole here.

No, i'm saying that not EVERYBODY is ordained by God.

Please, understand what I am arguing about first before saying I'm digging myself into a hole.

 

[DamianWarS]

What you talking bout, Willis?

Increased Polarization on Attitudes to Immigration Reshaping the Political Landscape in Canada

there is an increase and polarization like that would be fear-based but it's nothing like the US. Polarization is a very broad topic and I was speaking specifically to polarized politics in the US, most dominantly Christian = republican. Regardless what google search you can bring up this is drastically different in the US vs Canada.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Im a British Christian involved in the Hillsong church here in London. I’m politically active because I don’t think you can be a Christian and not take part and highlight issues.

Seeing the evangelical church support Trump has been a constant painful experience as non Christian friends simply cannot comphrehend why Christians would support such an individual who is clearly not Christian.

Due to the influence of the us on the world and trumps policies which are damaging international issues such as climate change I feel we as a church should be doing what we can to question the leaders in the us who support trump and bring about change within our church.

I’d love to hear from Christians who support trump and what your bible based reasoning is, and those who feel action needs to be taken and how we can do that responsibly and with love. Criticising and telling church leaders they are wrong is a difficult concept but has its precedence in the New Testament when many churches went off the tracks.

We must live by the standards of Jesus. If you truly ask yourself if Jesus would act like Trump the answer can only be a clear no.

This is not a discussion to throw hatred but to find out what is driving Christian trump supporters and how we as a church can act to make change

Hi I think your faith will come out in your politics. One thing I note since you mention Hillsong is the current event of Izzy Faloa who is a star rugby player who has had his contract suspended for speaking out again gay marriage and sharing scripture on repentance. He is persecuted and Hillsong chose to condemn Izzy rather than stand up for sound Biblical doctrine. This is where you have a problem as believers will not be united in their politics and then there will be the condemnation of those who you disagree with. This Izzy issue is just one example of the mine field that is out there. I have seen many political views changed when one is born again. Many in the church are not born again and maintain views that would be hard to prove on a scriptural basis such as on issues of abortion and all. Many of the political ideas are linked to eschatology which is the study of end times. If you know what the Bible says about that the sweat sentiment of unity, tolerance, acceptance can be showed as a tool for globalism and the rising one world political and religious system. These are perilous and contentious days. What ever remember to love everyone and grow in grace and understanding and wisdom.

 

[SkyWriting]

there is an increase and polarization like that would be fear-based but it's nothing like the US. Polarization is a very broad topic and I was speaking specifically to polarized politics in the US, most dominantly Christian = republican. Regardless what google search you can bring up this is drastically different in the US vs Canada.

Canada has had fewer world wars, civil wars, slaves, revolutions, fewer waves of immigration from fewer continents, borders with 3 world countries, and more.

Party affiliation / Absolutely certain Believe in God/ Fairly certain Believe in God


Republican/ 73% /17%
No leanings/ 62% 20%
Democrat/ 55% 21%

Belief in God by political party - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics - Pew Research Center

Canada’s Changing Religious Landscape

 

[Zachm531]

Local government is the working of the Fathers will on earth.

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

1 Peter 2
13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.

Titus 3
1 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

John 19
10 So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

Psalms 22
28 For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations.

Proverbs 21
1 The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will.

1 Timothy 2
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,

Daniel 2
21 He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding;

Deuteronomy 16
18 “You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment. You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality, and you shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause of the righteous. Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

Proverbs 8
15 By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;

God uses all types of people to accomplish his will but do not forget:
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There is evil in our government and every other government. Trump has demonstrated his wickedness in many ways. God has used him to accomplish his will in some ways.

 

[renniks]

So whilst the Bible says to support leaders, it surely assumes these are wise and good leaders. The bible also teaches us to expose those in darkness, to watch that our leaders are not leading the flock astray. We're not created as amazing intelligent beings to blindly follow any leader - as in previous wars we've had to fight to tear down evil regimes it's the same at home as abroad.

So my question is whether church leaders around the world (in and outside the US) should be holding the American church leaders to account who are supporting Trump and discussing the issue. Perhaps they are behind closed doors but Paul would openly write to criticise churches who led their people astray.

My personal opinion is that evangelicals are too dismissive of Trump's many faults. However, it's a matter of the lesser of evils. We either support Trump for the policies that he does get right, or we support people who support killing babies and letting men in woman's bathrooms. There have been some Christian leaders who have said Trump was not a good choice because of his lack or morals. The amazing thing is that we had some good candidates an ended up with the two worst possible ones. It says something about the cultures tendency to go with the loudest instead of the best, IMO.

 

[renniks]

So do you think 'most' churches are supporting him because of the desire to see those policies enacted?

I'll amend my language that he's allegedly creating an atmosphere that encourages unglodly behaviour. However if you look up to the president, are you not encouraged to think and act like him? Would you agree he acts in an ungodly way?

The thing is we're finding it hard to understand a christian's desire to see the political action at the cost of anything. When anything might allegedly be worse than the political action achieved? THat's our viewpoint of course and obviously not yours.

So how about discussing this logic - please bear with me.

- If the leaders placed in power are appointed by god, it means previous ones were too yes? If not how do you know if this one is put in place by god? If all leaders are put in place by god then the laws they enact are put in place by god so why oppose them? That includes laws on equality, abortion etc that you want Trump to change.

By arguing that you need Trump to change these rules you're saying that rules enacted by previously god appointed rules were wrong.

By following this logic would you agree it's entirely 'possible' that what Trump is doing might also be wrong?

We're talking logically here not about specific cases.

What leaders act in a godly way? Very few, unfortunately. Yes, Trump is extreme and aggressive and I really think it's all about power to him. But, Hillary is a career liar who would have made every kind of abortion legal. Again, what other choice is there? Pray for a better leader to rise up, for sure, but until then, we have to do the best we can with what we have.