Christian Bakers and Gay Wedding Cakes

dms1972

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Nobody should go against their conscience, that's not what I'm saying. But I don't think a conscience is well informed when it insists on imposing ones purely religious scruples on another human being, particularly one who does not share ones religious presuppositions and assumptions. Natural law arguments against homosexuality are full of logical fallacies and the science doesn't support the notion that homosexuality is a pathology.

The 'science', that's a joke, the gay-lib movement done their best to shut down any psychological research into homosexuality.
 
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Galaxy Hunter

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I don't think God is pleased when Christians use the Bible to attack gay people and to deny them civil rights.
"Attacking" is not good but I'm not sure how you are defining it...Do you think God is pleased when people lovingly tell homosexuals they are sinning? If not you must think God doesn't believe the Bible.
 
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SilverBear

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This isn't about a cake I am talking about. I don't wish to redefine anyone's experiences, they are what they were. But to cling to hurts, or dramatise them is not the way forward either. To suggest the mere possibility of misinterpretation is reasonable. But what you say cuts another way, gays don't get to make their 'personal truth' a model interpretation for others, they don't get to tell others that 'your homosexuality is inborn' when that flies in the face of the best evidence, they don't get to limit the potentialities of a new life for a christian.
the is a large pool of evidence and it does not agree with your position.

Christians who have overcome, and won a inner victory through the power of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit in their lives, have by God grace, made courageous efforts too, often against a stream of discouragement and scepticism, and opposition. I read the testimony of one man who had been in a gay lifestyle for a number of years, but was beginning to find healing after attending a pastoral care ministry. He was faced with being alone for a number of days, and began to feel temptations to resolve his loneliness in the way had used to go out in search of a casual gay encounter. He stood true to his faith in Christ for several hours, and was delivered from the temptation. You don't get to redefine his experience, or others like him, which is what you do when you dismiss it as 'flim flam'
and I've read testimony of people who say they have been abducted by aliens.
 
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SilverBear

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The 'science', that's a joke, the gay-lib movement done their best to shut down any psychological research into homosexuality.
yeah...Gays are the leaders of the Illuminati and wield untold control over everything.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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Thanks for mentioning this and the video. I have a few questions though, Epi- tends to modify a term in the sense of something that is additional alongside, rather than above. Maybe just a poor choice of words in the narrator. But it is interesting.

That video explains some things, but its not talking about the 'beyond', the 'transcendent'. Karl Stern wrote 'every empirical fact contains it beyond'. That's what is missing more often than not in contemporary discussions of gender and sexuality. He wrote at a time when men were cut off from the feminine, that's what his book 'The Flight from Woman' was about. He looked at the matter in the lives and writings of five or six philosophers : Descartes, Sartre, Schopenhauer, Kierkegarrd, and Goethe I think. Now however the situation has changed somewhat again, Payne writes :'many men who seek help...will now more often be seen floundering, to one extent or another in an overtly developed feminine, or that which is a caricature of the feminine.'
According to the article below, ‘epi’ comes from the Greek for ‘over, on top of’. Epigenetics is an additional layer of instructions that lies ‘on top of’ DNA, controlling how the genes are read and expressed. That may be why the word "above" was used in the video.


For a while, I had been wondering how the sin Adam committed, that led to it entering the world, could possibly pass down the generations, and how the mankind God originally created as good could become wicked. Now we have a possible answer with epigenetics. It is possible that Adam's choice of disobedience to God, opened his eyes in a way that could alter his epigenetic marks, which passed onto his offsprings. Nevertheless, we still can't deny that we are responsible for the sins we commit ourselves.

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (James 1:14 NKJV)​

So when some homosexuals said they didn't choose to be attracted by people of the same sex, they may not realize that they might have contributed to the cultivation of that attraction when the thought first came across their mind in the very beginning.

It is a choice whether we allow a seed to grow.
 
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SilverBear

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According to the article below, ‘epi’ comes from the Greek for ‘over, on top of’. Epigenetics is an additional layer of instructions that lies ‘on top of’ DNA, controlling how the genes are read and expressed. That may be why the word "above" was used in the video.


For a while, I had been wondering how the sin Adam committed, that led to it entering the world, could possibly pass down the generations, and how the mankind God originally created as good could become wicked. Now we have a possible answer with epigenetics. It is possible that Adam's choice of disobedience to God, opened his eyes in a way that could alter his epigenetic marks, which passed onto his offsprings. Nevertheless, we still can't deny that we are responsible for the sins we commit ourselves.

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (James 1:14 NKJV)​

So when some homosexuals said they didn't choose to be attracted by people of the same sex, they may not realize that they might have contributed to the cultivation of that attraction when the thought first came across their mind in the very beginning.

It is a choice whether we allow a seed to grow.
So it's better to lie and say it was choice???
 
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SilverBear

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So If we quote the Bible we are "attacking" them and have no love in our hearts? Let me ask you then...Do you think God believes the Bible?

20100728-solution.jpg


Can you feel the love?
 
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Baking a cake is facilitating sin? Sorry, I do not agree with that. That is incivility masked as piety.

No, I'm sure it is somewhere in the Book of Leviticus. Thou shalt not bake a cake...
 
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So it's okay for your church to, as you put it, "be mean"? The plank groweth larger.

A church can refuse to marry a couple for all sorts of reasons. They can refuse to marry someone who isn't a member of their church or their denomination. They can refuse to marry a couple because of their race. And yes, they can refuse to marry a same-sex couple. It is a religious ceremony that is protected by the First Amendment. A reception is not protected by the First Amendment, so baking a cake for a reception is not so protected.
 
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Phil 1:21

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A church can refuse to marry a couple for all sorts of reasons. They can refuse to marry someone who isn't a member of their church or their denomination. They can refuse to marry a couple because of their race. And yes, they can refuse to marry a same-sex couple. It is a religious ceremony that is protected by the First Amendment. A reception is not protected by the First Amendment, so baking a cake for a reception is not so protected.
The question wasn't one of constitutional protection. It was regarding the level of hypocrisy required to state that refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple is "mean" but refusing to actually marry them is not. One of those plank things, ya know.
 
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The question wasn't one of constitutional protection. It was regarding the level of hypocrisy required to state that refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple is "mean" but refusing to actually marry them is not. One of those plank things, ya know.
Is it "one of those plank things" if a Christian church refuses to marry a Christian man to a Jewish woman? I don't see that as being a matter of hypocrisy.
 
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Phil 1:21

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Is it "one of those plank things" if a Christian church refuses to marry a Christian man to a Jewish woman? I don't see that as being a matter of hypocrisy.
Is it hypocrisy for a member of a church to defend his church's right to refuse to participate in action it deems sinful while calling someone outside his church "mean" for doing the same?

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Is it hypocrisy for a member of a church to defend his church's right to refuse to participate in action it deems sinful while calling someone outside his church "mean" for doing the same?

A church can establish the requirements for its own tenets and sacraments. Are you saying that it is "hypocrisy" for a church to refuse to allow those who are not members of that denomination to receive Holy Communion? I don't think so. And for the record, the church I attend will allow any baptized Christian to take Holy Communion. That is different than baking a cake for a reception.
 
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Phil 1:21

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A church can establish the requirements for its own tenets and sacraments. Are you saying that it is "hypocrisy" for a church to refuse to allow those who are not members of that denomination to receive Holy Communion? I don't think so. And for the record, the church I attend will allow any baptized Christian to take Holy Communion. That is different than baking a cake for a reception.
Will your next non sequitur involve the parking lot of the church? ^_^

(Spoiler alert!) If you'd kindly read what I actually posted, you'd see I made no statement about the church being hypocritical.
 
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Will your next non sequitur involve the parking lot of the church?

(Spoiler alert!) If you'd kindly read what I actually posted, you'd see I made no statement about the church being hypocritical.

And if you would kindly read what I have posted you would notice that I have asked you questions which you have thus far ignored.
 
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Phil 1:21

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And if you would kindly read what I have posted you would notice that I have asked you questions which you have thus far ignored.
Your questions are irrelevant to the post of mine to which you are responding. If I post something about dogs, don't expect me to get derailed by your questions about cats. :oldthumbsup:
 
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