Christian animism

[sparkle123]

What do Christians think about animistic-like views of the world? That everything that exists is sacred and alive, interconnected and related: that the earth, including animals, plants, and inert objects, are persons (or potentially so)?

Can a Christian believe this or not? I am not, of course, saying that a Christian would or should worship trees or rocks or nature spirits. I am, however, asking if it is Christian to see the earth and the world as alive in some way, perhaps even in a neighborly way? Anyone get what I'm asking?

I have some neo-pagan friends and this is a stumbling block to them when looking at Christianity. I can relate, in some fashion, and am intrigued at the questions they bring to Christianity. This makes me think some of Celtic Christianity, Tolkien, and the movie The Secret of Kells. Thoughts, anyone?

 

[bling]

Man has an objective while here on earth with everything else set up to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Depends on your view of God.
Everything is moved by the Spirit of God I would say. While not having its own spirit, it is within God's purview through the creative Logos.

I have met Christians with a more panentheistic bent or view which might fit your description. Those that consider God in essence the 'soul' of His creation.

 

[sparkle123]

Are those people considered heretical?

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Are those people considered heretical?

Depends again what you mean with heresy.
I myself don't hold to that view, but a lot of Christian mystics tend to say very similar things, like Eckhard etc.
I would think God is so far beyond our petty human understanding that I don't think we can fully grasp how His interaction with His creation occurs. Our terms by nature are all incomplete.

If pressed to defend a narrow definition of 'panentheist' then yes, it would be heresy. Its more the unknowability of God that is at play here.

 

[tdidymas]

What do Christians think about animistic-like views of the world? That everything that exists is sacred and alive, interconnected and related: that the earth, including animals, plants, and inert objects, are persons (or potentially so)?

Can a Christian believe this or not? I am not, of course, saying that a Christian would or should worship trees or rocks or nature spirits. I am, however, asking if it is Christian to see the earth and the world as alive in some way, perhaps even in a neighborly way? Anyone get what I'm asking?

I have some neo-pagan friends and this is a stumbling block to them when looking at Christianity. I can relate, in some fashion, and am intrigued at the questions they bring to Christianity. This makes me think some of Celtic Christianity, Tolkien, and the movie The Secret of Kells. Thoughts, anyone?

Also, "the force" of Star Wars. But I see all that as analogies, not reality. The Bible says that God made the world habitable for us, which means that mankind is the crown of His creation, and the primary purpose the world exists. To think that objects in the world such as plants and rocks are "alive and sacred" is the same as believing superstition. Many pagan religions believe that nature has energy that can be harnessed for personal use. I'm not saying this is where you are heading, but the point is that the idea that everything is "alive" as if it has a soul is a pagan idea. It's the result of people who don't know the only true God, who observe nature and come to the wrong conclusion.

Of course, plants and animals are alive, since they have DNA which is the scientific definition of the basis of life. It doesn't mean that we should count it sacred, since God commanded us to eat freely of it all. On the other hand, it doesn't mean we can waste it indiscriminately. To preserve life in the world is to love our neighbor who also has the right to enjoy God's creation. We can also use the wonders of nature to worship the God who made it. Everything is interconnected, because it is the order of how God made things. We are all made (physically) from the same basic stuff. So then, what do we do with this information? Certainly not hug trees.
TD

 

[Serving Zion]

What do Christians think about animistic-like views of the world? That everything that exists is sacred and alive, interconnected and related: that the earth, including animals, plants, and inert objects, are persons (or potentially so)?

Can a Christian believe this or not? I am not, of course, saying that a Christian would or should worship trees or rocks or nature spirits. I am, however, asking if it is Christian to see the earth and the world as alive in some way, perhaps even in a neighborly way? Anyone get what I'm asking?

I have some neo-pagan friends and this is a stumbling block to them when looking at Christianity. I can relate, in some fashion, and am intrigued at the questions they bring to Christianity. This makes me think some of Celtic Christianity, Tolkien, and the movie The Secret of Kells. Thoughts, anyone?

Hi Sparkle, nice question! I have been gathering my thoughts on this for a few days. It was interesting to hear the opinion that DNA is the definition of life, because I was thinking to suggest that you should first define what life is.

That given definition excludes rocks and cancer, but includes plants. So plants are a form of life. DNA is not all that life is though, eg: living creatures have self-awareness. Awareness encapsulates the ability to perceive and to be comfortable/uncomfortable (eg: WRT it's security). I know there is research that produces convincing proof that some plants perceive threats (eg: plants that produce chemicals to taste bitter when they become aware of a predator in their vicinity). Plants also observably thrive and wilt depending on their conditions, and trees for example seem to have some awareness of existing branches so that new growth is focused to areas where light and space is most available, even behaving to grow with a long-term view to it's future shape.

And then you have also mentioned "person" - what is the definition of a person? In my mind, I always see the word "personality" attached to it, their being such directly related words.

Personality is easily observed in animals (dogs being especially easy to personify).

Spoiler: personify

to think of or represent (a thing or idea) as a person or as having human qualities or powers

Yet even of animals without complex facial expressions (eg: cows), it is easy to observe their personality - their attitude, knowledge, mood etc.. and this really shows that what we are observing as personality is actually a character of mind - the way the creature thinks. So this helps us to understand why it is difficult to observe personality in plants.

Then of course if a twig is taken from a tree and propagated so it strikes root and becomes a new tree - it is now no longer part of the same tree as before, and if one tree is grafted into another, is it still two trees or is it now one? So, plants are quite a different creature altogether from one that has a central cognitive system. It really is difficult for us to naturally sympathise with the way a plant regards it's self.

Yet, even if it is difficult to sympathise with another creature, we should not assume to be right for disrespecting it. The things that limit us do not necessarily limit God. So we ought to be responsible and assume that He is able to sympathise even with plants in ways that we cannot. I am certain without any doubt that God loves all of His creatures great and small, and I sympathise with that idea because I am one who also loves all of His creatures, great and small.

We should always remember that we did not choose to be who we are, but became a living part of the world, having self-awareness, and we know of ourselves that we naturally long for God as the maker, whether to express gratefulness or resentment. Therefore to love your neighbour as yourself is a fundamentally natural responsibility, which ultimately, we owe to God the creator. "..and who is my neighbour?" the man asked ("because he wanted to justify himself"). It is the one who showed compassion without partiality. (Luke 10:25-37).

So I say yes, it should be good and Christian to believe that all life is sacred and precious to God.

1 Peter 3:10-17
For “whoever would love life and see good days must guard his tongue from bad and his lips from speaking deception. Let him turn away from what is bad and do what is good; let him seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of Jehovah are on the righteous, and his ears listen to their supplication, but the face of Jehovah is against those doing bad things.”

Maintain a good conscience, so that in whatever way you are spoken against, those who speak against you may be put to shame because of your good conduct as followers of Christ. For it is better to suffer because you are doing good, if it is God’s will to allow it, than because you are doing evil.

Creation has “an intrinsic value” which is “independent of [its] usefulness. Each organism, as a creature of God, is good and admirable in itself.” - Pope Francis
http://blog.humanesociety.org/wayne/2015/06/pope-encyclical-embraces-animal-protection.html

As for "interconnectedness" and "oneness", I have never understood such language to describe valid truths. Every person is clearly individual and unique.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What do Christians think about animistic-like views of the world? That everything that exists is sacred and alive, interconnected and related: that the earth, including animals, plants, and inert objects, are persons (or potentially so)?

Can a Christian believe this or not? I am not, of course, saying that a Christian would or should worship trees or rocks or nature spirits. I am, however, asking if it is Christian to see the earth and the world as alive in some way, perhaps even in a neighborly way? Anyone get what I'm asking?

I have some neo-pagan friends and this is a stumbling block to them when looking at Christianity. I can relate, in some fashion, and am intrigued at the questions they bring to Christianity. This makes me think some of Celtic Christianity, Tolkien, and the movie The Secret of Kells. Thoughts, anyone?

It's fundamentally about recognizing the distinction between the Uncreated and the created, Creator and creature. Look up St. Francis of Assisi's Canticle of Brother Sun, it's the basis for the hymn All Creatures of Our God and King. There is a strong component in Christian theology to understand that creation is good, and beautiful, and that God cares for all things; and that we can appreciate the beauty and wonder of God's creation and worship God through His creation--He did after all give us water for Baptism, bread and wine for the Eucharist, God works through created means.

If by "sacred" we mean that all which God has made is good, beautiful, and lovely and that in Christ God is renewing and restoring all things--then absolutely as Christians we understand the sanctity and sacredness of all creatures, animate and inanimate.

However if by "sacred" we mean something like that each rock or pond has a genius or kami (Roman Pagan and Shinto ideas respectively) and that we can commune with the spiritual intelligences of creatures or offer them a worship which is due only to God then that is deeply problematic as that's straight up idolatry.

That's why we get back to the Creator/creature distinction, God the Uncreated and everything else as created. God alone is worthy of adoration, worship, latria.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[aiki]

What do Christians think about animistic-like views of the world? That everything that exists is sacred and alive, interconnected and related: that the earth, including animals, plants, and inert objects, are persons (or potentially so)?

Can a Christian believe this or not? I am not, of course, saying that a Christian would or should worship trees or rocks or nature spirits. I am, however, asking if it is Christian to see the earth and the world as alive in some way, perhaps even in a neighborly way? Anyone get what I'm asking?

I have some neo-pagan friends and this is a stumbling block to them when looking at Christianity. I can relate, in some fashion, and am intrigued at the questions they bring to Christianity. This makes me think some of Celtic Christianity, Tolkien, and the movie The Secret of Kells. Thoughts, anyone?

Isaiah 65:17
17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

2 Peter 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

If the earth was sacred and "alive" as you suggest, it seems rather horrible of God to simply burn it all up and start over. But, apparently, that's exactly what He is going to do. Doesn't seem, then, like God holds the sort of view of the earth that your pagan friends do. And if He doesn't hold such a view, neither, I think, should we.

Be very wary of neo-paganism, pantheism and panentheism. These are the sorts of beliefs that would fall, I think, under the warning of Paul in the first chapter of his letter to the Romans:

Romans 1:21-25
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Selah.

 

[orangeness365]

The Bible says that every natural body has a spirit body, and that everything will be recreated in Heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:35-49
The Resurrection Body

35But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;e the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shallf also bear the image of the man of heaven.


Isaiah 11:6-9
6The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together;
and a little child shall lead them.
7The cow and the bear shall graze;
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra,
and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.
9They shall not hurt or destroy
in all my holy mountain;

Revelation 5:13
13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying,

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”

 

[Taom Ben Robert]

Are those people considered heretical?

Panentheism is not heresy

 

[aiki]

On panentheism:

http://www.str.org/blog/could-panentheism-be-an-understanding-of-god-s-nature-video

Selah.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

The danger of animism, which is a watered down form of pantheism, is in the diminishing of God as sovereign. Once one (or a group) gets to the point of believing "God is God, but all these other things have as much 'right' as God" then there is no Almighty God, but only a sort of moderator in a vast horde of representatives. And, little in the way of organization at that.

Conservation in the old-fashioned sense of the word is proper. The Bible tells 'us' (whoever reads and pays attention) to 'steward' the world. An old fashioned word meaning "take proper care". Which is not the same thing as believing Mr. Tree and Mr. Stream and Mr. Toadstool are somehow all vibrant, intelligent beings with some irreplaceable contribution to the 'great cosmic all'.

On the whole, I don't think animism is a big deal, as long as it is subject to Christianity (nor is making a living). When animism (or making a living) supersedes Christianity, there's a problem. As with a lot of things, if it cannot be controlled, better do without.

 

[Greg J.]

God is separate from his creation (after all, he existed before creation). Various belief systems blur this line. In my small experience, non-Christian belief systems have the truth at their root, but then something true is magnified or diminished out of proportion (or is just twisted), then the belief system is built on that. As a result, some conclusion drawn may be correct, which appear to add to the credibility of the belief system, but that doesn't mean all the roots or beliefs are right.

On that day HOLY TO THE LORD will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the LORD’S house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the LORD Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. ... (Zechariah 14:20-21a, 1984 NIV)

A person could read the above passage and ask themselves the question, is the Spirit of the Lord in all objects? Once the question arises, it is easy to hunt for supporting evidence without being as zealous to find evidence that it is not.

Like a painter can be identified by seeing a painting by him along with paintings by other painters, we can see God's hand in various created things. This, or perhaps just pondering God's omnipresence, can lead a person to conclude that God is "in" everything. But Scripture teaches this is not the case.

 

[Tull]

Worshiping the created instead of the creator

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

What do I think? Everything is God.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

What do I think? Everything is God.

From what you wrote here - exactly - this sounds like pantheism. Would you care to elaborate?

 

[aiki]

What do I think? Everything is God.

This is irrational. Everything cannot be God.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

This is irrational. Everything cannot be God.

You have an avatar featuring Barney the purple dinosaur fighting with the incredible hulk, and I'm irrational because I synopsized scripture?
Colossians 1:16,John 1:3, Isaiah 45:7,Revelation 1:8,Revelation 22:13,

 

[Archie the Preacher]

This is irrational. Everything cannot be God.

Aiki, does a depiction of Barney fighting the Incredible Hulk symbolize your ideal of the reality of the Universe and the nature of God?