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Featured Christ, Israel, and the fall of Jerusalem

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mkgal1, Sep 18, 2019.

  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    United States
    Revelation 13:10 is about the beast and those who follow him. So is Revelation 19. Neither have anything to do with 70AD unless of course you want to take the position the Jews are the beast.

    Sure there were church fathers which believed this and it reflected in how the medieval church treated Jews terribly.
  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    United States
    Actually I can view the Land Beast as OC 1st century Jewish/Judah. [The Sea Beast perhaps represent the Israel/Gentiles?]
    The 2 horns could symbolize OC Judah and Levi? [Levi is listed 8th in order of the tribes].

    Still a work in progress

    The wild Beasts from the Sea and from the Land

    The wild Beast Out of the Land

    11 And I saw another wild Beast ascending out of the land,
    and it had two horns like a lambkin and it spoke as a Dragon.
    12 And the authority of the first wild Beast all it is doing in view of it.
    And is making the land and those dwelling in it that to be worshiping the first wild Beast, of which was cured the blow of the death of it.
    13 And it is doing great signs that even fire it may be making out of the heaven descending into the land in view of the men.
    14 And it is deceiving those dwelling on the land thru the signs which was given to it to do in view of the wild Beast,
    saying to those dwelling upon the land to make an image to the wild Beast which hath the blow of the sword and lives.
    15 And was given to it to give spirit/breath to the image of the wild Beast, that also the image of the wild Beast should be speaking.
    And should be causing as many as shall no should be worshiping to the image of the wild Beast, that they may be being killed.

    16 And it is causing all the small and the great and the rich and the poor, and the freemen and the servants that may be giving to them a mark upon their right hand or upon their foreheads.
    17 And that no one may be able to buy, or to sell, except he who is having the mark of the wild Beast or the name of the wild Beast, or the number of it's name.
    18 Here the wisdom is being!
    The one having mind, let him calculate the number of the wild Beast, for number of man it is, and its number six hundred sixty six.

    The Greek text indicates that this is “another” of the same kind as the first beast, or a “beast” in another form. In our last message we pointed out that the “antichrist” is not the same as the “beast” in the book of Revelation. There is indeed a relationship, but there is also an important difference. “Antichrist” refers to a spirit and to the people possessed by that spirit. Notice the language: “Ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now there are many antichrists…they went out from us, but they were not of us…every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not…is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist…for many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” On the other hand, throughout the scriptures, the word beast refers to a system, and not to a man. The beasts speak of bestial systems, organizations, institutions, movements, and governments. The antichrist people may be found in the bestial system, but the bestial system is something beyond the people themselves.

    This second beast is an earth-born beast. There is no possibility of confusing him with the first beast. They are utterly different. The first is a composite wild jungle beast, the second resembles a lamb, but inwardly bears the nature of a dragon. Outwardly he looks like a kinder, gentler, harmless beast, having only two horns, and those of a harmless kind — like the horns of a lamb. Also, he has no crowns on his horns, indicating that he has no political sovereignty. When he speaks, however, he speaks like a dragon; and for all his harmless appearance he is a true therion, a savage, fierce, and cruel brute. When we look at his character and pretensions we find that, bad as the other beast was, there is something here yet more dreadful. The second beast does not accomplish his agenda by brute force; he works deception through signs, wonders, and miracles. The first gives his authority to the second, and the second persuades men everywhere to give respect and pay homage to an image of the first. They are in league and covenant, each aiding and abetting the other.

    I would now draw your attention to the fact that the expression “I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth” is literally in the Greek, “I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth.” John did not say, “I saw a beast come up or ascend as a limited, one-time event, but coming up or ascending — denoting a continuous action. It is on-going. It is constantly being fulfilled. It cannot be bound by, nor does it predict or specify, any actual historical or future event. Instead, the beast is ascending, he is always ascending out of the earth-realm of the soul of man.
    It is impossible to understand this truth of the two beasts unless we can distinguish between the sea, the earth, and the two beasts themselves. The first beast is not the sea-realm itself, but comes up out of the sea of humanity. The second beast is not the earth-realm itself, but comes up out of the earth, out of the soulical nature of man. So we are dealing neither with the wicked, surging masses of humanity nor the moral and religious people who bring a sense of stability to civilization..................
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    United States
    Recommend revisiting all of the unconditional covenants in the OT.
  4. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    United States
    No thanks. Let the Dispensationalist Futurists and Jews do that.
    Covenant Theology


    In brief, Covenant Theology teaches that God has established two great covenants with mankind and a covenant within the Godhead to deal with how the other two relate. The first covenant in logical order, usually called the Covenant of Redemption, is the agreement within the Godhead that the Father would appoint his son Jesus to give up his life for mankind and that Jesus would do so (cf. Titus 1:1-3).

    The second, called the Covenant of Works, was made in the Garden of Eden between God and Adamand promised life for obedience and death for disobedience. Adam disobeyed God and broke the covenant, and so the third covenant was made between God and all of mankind, who also fell with Adam according to Romans 5:12-21.
    This third covenant, the Covenant of Grace, promised eternal blessing for belief in Christ and obedience to God's word. It is thus seen as the basis for all biblical covenants that God made individually with Noah, Abraham, and David, nationally with O.T. Israel as a people, and universally with man in the New Covenant. These individual covenants are called the "biblical covenants" because they are explicitly described as such in the Bible.
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
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  5. misput

    misput jimd

    United States
    The beast is simply man without God. The antichrist is simply anyone who is against Christ. Nigh and soon does not mean 2000 years : )
  6. miggles

    miggles miggles

    United States
    i often wonder if the reason israel has no peace is because the jews there do not accept Christ as their savior.
  7. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    Wasn't there only one unconditional covenant (the one between Abraham & God)?
  8. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    "Israel" in the Bible means "people of God".

    The plot of land in the middle East only shares a name with Ancient Israel. Judaism today is also different.
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    United States

    While you are correct that OT events and personalities were indeed types and shadows that pointed to New testament objects and realities, the Apostles did not see or teach this as continuing beyond the messianic generation. For Christ is no shadow but the object itself.

    Like many OT types that foreshadowed NT realities, Daniels AoD, even though the Jews understood as fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphenes, Jesus instructs His audience that such OT fulfillment was only typological, and the Antitype was yet future to them....

    Luke Extrapolates in the most detail on what/when the disciples would recognize as the fulfillment of the antitype, namely it would be when they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by Armies", and Jesus places further emphasis on the fact that such would be the antitype fulfillment when He instructs them that those would be "the days of vengeance in fulfillment of all things written"

    While the apostles understood how OT types and shadows pointed to NT fulfillments, they did not in turn teach that NT fulfillments were types and shadows of some future, greater fulfillments.

    Do we await another Virgin Birth, another Crucifixion? another 3rd day rising out of the tomb? Do we await some future, greater sacrifice of Christ?..... then why would we await another Surrounding of Jerusalem by armies in fulfillment of all things written?
    And why only 2? why not 12? or 20 or 100 more?

    Once you open the door to "multiple fulfillment" there can be no terminus.

    No, scripture does not allow for it, for again, Christ is not the shadow but the object itself. (Col 2:16-17)
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    United States
    In every FULFILLED OT Prophesy of the doom and destruction of individuals, Kings and/or Nations, The LORD that is YHWH is depicted by the prophets as defeating them Personally, Visibly, Coming down from the heavens riding the clouds, angelic armies in tow, shooting arrows, wielding His sword, killing His enemies with His brightness and Breath, and destroying the physical world and cosmos each time.
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    United States
    Good Point.

    On 3-27-02, a suicide bomber blew himself, and at least 19 Israelis into eternity. What many may be missing--in fact, some will not want to hear--is that the attack, taking place on Passover, has tremendous theological implications.

    In 1967 the Arab league, led by Egypt, attacked Israel on Yom Kippur, the
    Day of Atonement. This is one of Israel's most holy days of the year
    . It seemed, in the first day or two, that Israel was doomed. However, that war lasted, due to Israel's amazing military prowess, only 6 Days. Millennialists hailed Israel's victory as a positive sign that Jehovah was protecting her, and that, of course, we must be living in the last days! Let's take a closer look.

    Instead of being a proof that Modern Israel are God's chosen people, the Yom Kippur attack in 1967, and the attack on Passover on 3/27/02 prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Modern Israel is not in covenant relationship with Jehovah. We know this from scripture.

    Read Exodus 34:23: "Three times in the year all your men shall appear before
    the Lord, the Lord God of Israel [passover, pentecost, tabernacles]. For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year." The promise here is simple and profound. As long as Israel was in covenant relationship with Jehovah, their enemies would not attack them during their holy feast days!

    For 1500 years there were no attacks against Israel during her feast days [During the Mosaic Age]. However, the siege of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 took place, the city fell, during Pentecost. What are the implications of that attack in light of Exodus 34? The Seven Day War of 1967 took place on Yom Kippur, Israel's most Holy Day. What are the implications in light of Exodus 34? And the attack on Passover on 3-27-02. What are the ramifications of this attack, on Israel's Holy Day?

    If Israel is still God's chosen people, that Palestinian bomber should never have been allowed by Jehovah to attack during the Passover. If Israel is still God's chosen people the attack of 1967 should never have happened. Instead of Israel's victory at that time being a sign of her elect status, it was, and is, a sign of the direct opposite. It proved, and proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Covenantal promise of Exodus 34 is no longer applicable! But if the Covenantal promise of Exodus 34 is no longer applicable, then the other promises of that Covenant, i.e., the promises of national restoration (e.g. Deuteronomy 30), are also now invalid, abrogated by Jehovah Himself.

    Further, the attacks on Yom Kippur, and now Passover, also prove something else, a direct corollary to everything else. Either the Covenant promise of Exodus 34 is no longer valid, or, the people claiming to be Israel today are not the people of the Covenant of Exodus 34. If the Covenant of Exodus is still valid, but the people in Israel today were attacked in violation of Exodus 34, then what does it say about the identity of the people in Israel today? It says that they cannot be the people of the Covenant of Exodus 34!

    Every time, and any time, that ANYONE attacks Israel during any of
    her three feast days, Bible students everywhere should be trumpeting the
    Biblical fact, that this proves, emphatically, and unequivocally, that Modern Geopolitical Israel is not the chosen people of God.
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  12. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    It's death and sin that I see in Scripture that are humanity's true enemy. And that's what I believe He defeated on the cross.

    Quoting R.C. Sproul: The Bible describes death as an enemy. It is not the only enemy of the Christian, but it is described as the “last enemy.” In 1 Corinthians, Paul affirms that Christ will reign until He has put all enemies under His feet, and the last of those enemies will be death (15:25–26) ~ The Last Enemy by R.C. Sproul

    The Greek Orthodox church expresses this in a pictorial:
    Christ is risen from the dead,
    Trampling down death by death,
    And upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
    -Paschal (Easter) Hymn

    Jesus Christ was not content with laying in the tomb for three days after His crucifixion. Instead, while His body was entombed, Christ’s soul descended into Hades. Christ descended there not to suffer, but to fight, and free the souls trapped there. Just as bringing a light into darkness causes the darkness to disappear, the Source of all Life descending into the abode of the dead resulted in Jesus’ victory over death, and not death’s victory over Jesus. This is the full reality of what Christ’s death and resurrection accomplished. ~ The Resurrection | Icon of Victory

    Quoting Dr. Chuck Crisco:

    Does "sin" exist anymore? No.

    Does bad behavior, murder, hatred and lying still exist. Yes, of course.

    When we think "sin" we think, disobedience to God, breaking the Law of God, sinful behavior, i.e. that which offends God, and so on. But is that really what sin is?

    The most common word for "sin" is the word hamartia. This word for sin is used 174 times in the NT so it must be very important. But what many don't realize is that in most cases the word "sin" is not a verb. It is not an action at all! In Romans for instance, nearly every time "sin" is used, it is not a verb. That by itself ought to raise some red flags for us, as well as take some pressure off. Jesus didn't come to deal with OUR individual actions, as much as he came to deal with sin, a power, a thing.

    So then what is THE sin? It is the SIN of Adam. Did you ever notice how John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away THE SIN (singular and with the definite article) of the world." Not sins, plural, but sin, singular. Let that sink in for a moment.

    Some of you were taught the Romans Road as a method for evangelism where verses are cherry picked into order to explain the gospel. One of those is Romans 6:23, "For the wages of... (wait, notice the next word which doesn't get translated is the definite article)... THE SIN is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." Paul is not talking about our individual behaviors. He is talking about the sin of Adam!

    This Greek word is made up of two words 'a-martia. One is the “a” with the ha sound and means “not”. And the other is martia which could have two closely related meanings. We have been told it means miss the mark of the prize. But the actual word itself is either “a part of, a share of” or it means “to grasp.” So the word means to not share in, or not grasp. So THE sin of Adam is that by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he failed to share in or grasp something.

    What was it? The serpent said, if you eat of this tree you will become like God, and Adam was already created in the likeness and image of God. His sin was to, by his own effort become like God…when God had already made him in his likeness. He failed to grasp his own identity and likeness. He failed to share/participate in God’s image and likeness and instead saw himself less than he was, and immediately it created a spiritual-blindness in him about himself and about God.

    Here is the even larger problem: his failure to continue to "share in, grasp, and hold on to" his identity and the knowledge of God, affected every person after him. They all shared in the spiritual-soul-death that it created. But Jesus the LAST ADAM came to "hold on to, share in" the truth of who he was and who his Father was, so that what is passed to everyone is the knowledge of God, and an unshakable identity of being accepted, forgiven, blessed, and righteous. Jesus' ministry, in the universal sense, was the undoing of the sin of Adam. ~ Does Sin Exist Anymore? — A New Day Dawning
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    United States
    There is no mention of a Millennium in the OT.

    Jesus Never Mentioned a Millennium

    Rather, it is The apostolic eschatological doctrine that prohibits any view of the "millennium" that portrays it as a future, literal, earthly epoch. A simple examination of the NT epistles shows that there is no future historical "thousand-years" period. We know this with certainty, for the apostles explicitly identified the precise timing of the resurrection, the judgment, and the New Heaven/Earth -- they all occur at the coming of Jesus Christ, thus proving that there is no literal "thousand years" that separates these events out over time.

    (1) The resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:23)

    (2) The judgment occurs at the coming of Christ (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)

    (3) The "New Heavens/Earth" occurs at the coming of Christ -- i.e., the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Pet 3:10/1 Thess 5:2)

    These key eschatological events all occur at the precice moment of the coming of Jesus Christ. THEREFORE, as the apostles themselves understood, there is no literal, historic millennium separating them.
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  14. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    United States
    One of the reasons is found in this rather sobering passage of John 11 [fulfilled in 70AD as also shown in Revelation 18 and 19]
    The whole Nation didn't perish, but millions of Jews did during the 7-8 yr Israel/Jewish wars in the 1st century..........

    John 11:47
    Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said "what shall we do? For this Man works many signs.
    48 If-ever we may be be letting Him thus, all shall be believing in Him.
    And shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation"
    49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all,
    50 "nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish."

    John 11:48 "....shall come the Romans and take away of us, place and nation"

    Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
    “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
    The remnant shall be being saved.


    Titus sieges Jerusalem on Feast of Passover/Destroyer in Revelation

    Revelation 6:6
    And I hear as a sound in midst of the four living ones, saying: "choinex of grain of Denarius and three choinex of barleys of Denarius, and the olive-oil/elaion <1637> and the wine/oinon <3631> no you should be injuring".

    Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
    APRIL, A.D. 70 - PHASE ONE

    The first night of Titus' encampment with the 15th, 3rd and 18th Legions, the 5th Legion arrived from Emmaus and set camp north of the city on Mount Scopus. Later the next day, the famed 10th Legion (founded by Julius Caesar) marched in from Jericho and camped on the Mount of Olives, east of the city.
    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
    Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

    The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah
    Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
    The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;
    At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes.

    Revelation 9:6
    And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
    and shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.

    Revelation 18:8
    Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows, death and sorrow and famine. And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
    that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.

    Revelation 19:1
    After these I hear as a great sound of a vast throng in the heaven, saying,
    "HalleluYah! the salvation and the glory and the honor, and the power of our God;
    2 That true and righteous His judgings, that He judges the great Whore who corrupts the earth in Her whoredom, and avenges<1556> the blood of His bond-servants out of Her hand".

    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    United States
    Where is the record of this one being literally fulfilled:

    Isaiah 7:14
    14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

    Go ahead and provide the scriptural (or even Historic) record of Mary the Virgin naming her Son Immanuel, as this prophesy says would LITERALLY happen.
  16. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    It depends on who you view the beast and the false prophet to be.

    I believe the beast was Zealot-Led Israel. It was also “the beast” in the book of Revelation that partnered with the false prophets of first century Israel, called “the beast from the land” and “the false prophet.”

    This series includes a study of the beast(s) in Daniel 2, 7; Revelation 11, 13-17, 19-20. ~ Pursuing Truth
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  17. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    Not "Jews" in the general sense - or else we wouldn't have the formation of the early church. It was the apostate Jews of the first century that were the beast.

    The faithful remnant - however - heeded Jesus' instruction and fled to the mountains, to Pella.


    Matthew 24:16 ~ ....then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

    flee to the mountains – Pursuing Truth
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    United States
    Hell mkgal. Good post and great site!!!.

    I am just now starting to study on Pella and I found another great resource for that is Preterist Archive.

    I of course want to also harmonize the 70ad Temple/Jerusalem discourse in Luke with the book of Revelation

    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

    Matthew 24:16
    then those in
    the Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains
    Mark 13:14
    Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination of the desolation<2050>, the one being declared by Daniel the prophet, standing where it is not binding, (whoever is reading let him be understanding!)
    Then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains
    Luke 21:21
    then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains;
    and those in midst of Her, let them be coming out to country;
    and those in the countries placed, let them not be entering into Her
    22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written
    23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
    For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath upon this people.

    Revelation 18:4 And I hear another Voice out of the heaven saying "come forth<exelqete 1831> out of Her My people!......................
    Some good articles on Pella.....

    The Flight to Pella

    Remember Pella | Matthew 24:16 | Did Jerusalem Christians Flee to Pella? | Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War | The Jewish Revolt Against the Romans | Map of Ancient Israel | Audio Sermon : The Flight (of the Christians) To Pella | Symeon and the Flight to Pella - The Secret Legacy of Jesus:

    "this centuries-old underground stream of Christ’s original teachings remained alive and surfaced again in Colonial America, where the Founding Fathers used teachings to establish what they believed would be a “New Jerusalem.” With the rise of a fundamentalist Christianity, this potent spiritual vision was lost, but it can be recovered and used to bring about the reconciliation of Christians, Jews, and Muslims."

    Eusebius: "The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella." Book III, 5:4

    Eusebius (325)
    "But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. " (History of the Church 3:5:3)

    Did Jerusalem Christians Flee to Pella?


    Did the Jerusalem Christians flee to Pella just before the Romans destroyed their city? There is no way to know for sure. We can only deal in probabilities. If we accept as reliable the accounts of Eusebius and others, the issue is settled. If, as did Brandon, one begins by doubting those records and seeks reasons for supporting that skepticism, the answer to the question will most certainly be, "No," for when evidence is incomplete, selected and biased reading and interpretations of data can usually yield the desired conclusion.

    Between these two are other options, including evaluating carefully both the primary sources and their critics. In addition, beyond the direct evidence there may be circumstantial, which although a bit oblique and supplementary, may be relevant. It is evidence of this type that we seek to add to the investigation of the Pella tradition.

    Perhaps the situation and unfolding events were something like what follows.
    The Jerusalem Christian community was centered on the southwest hill of Jerusalem, now called Mt. Zion.
    In all probability it was here they had eaten the last passover meal with Jesus, were together when the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost, and may have constructed their own synagogue. This location, although containing such "up scale" residences as the palace of the high priest, the Christians probably shared it with others who were a bit out of the mainstream of Jerusalem life Jewish groups, such as the Essenes.

    If indeed the Jerusalem Christians fled the city, we do not know whether they did so in mass, in small groups, or as individuals. Furthermore, the time of this exodus has been variously placed. Most likely(24) are following the Jewish victory over Cestius Gallus (A.D.66/67),(25) or in the period following the temporary withdrawal of Vespasian to await developments in Rome (A.D. 68/69).(26) The latter would seem more logical to me. They would have already seen Jerusalem "surrounded by armies" (cf. Luke 21:20) and presumably been free to travel toward Jericho since the Tenth Legion had pretty much left the area and was already established on the Mount of Olives; in any case, at this point in time Roman military activities had been halted.

    "The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.)

    "After all those who believed in Christ had generally come to live in Perea, in a city called Pella of the Decapolis of which it is written in the Gospel and which is situated in the neighborhood of the region of Batanaea and Basanitis, Ebion's preaching originated here after they had moved to this place and had lived there." (Panarion 30:2)

    "For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis (de Mens. et Pond., 15).

    "Now this sect of Nazarenes exists in Beroea in Coele-Syria, and in Decapolis in the district of Pella, and in Kochaba of Basanitis-- called Kohoraba in Hebrew. For thence it originated after the migration from Jerusalem of all the disciples who resided at Pella, Christ having instructed them to leave Jerusalem and retire from it on account of the impending siege. It was owing to this counsel that they went away, as I have said, to reside for a while at Pella" (Haer 29:7).

    "For when all who believed in Christ had settled down about that time in Peraea, the majority of the emigrants taking up their abode at Pella, a town belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the Gospel, near Batanea and the district to Basanitis, Ebion got his excuse and opportunity. At first their abode was Kochaba, a village in the district of Carnaim, Arnem, and Astaroth, in the region of Basanitis, according to the information we have received. But I have spoken, in other connections and with regard to other heresies, of the locality of Kochaba and Arabia (Haer 30:2)... "[The Ebionites] spring for the most part from Batanea ... and Paneas, as well as from Moabitis and Cochaba in Basanitis on the other side of Adraa" (Haer 30:18).
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  19. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    Those that put their trust in the ancient Temple government instead of in their Messiah perished (physically).

    According to Ray Vander Laan

    The Jewish Revolts

    Jewish people of Jesus' day had a passionate desire for freedom from the domination of the pagan Romans and the oppressive Herod dynasty that had ruled them for many years. Revolt seethed continuously, mostly underground, for more than 100 years from the time Herod became king (37 BC) until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple (AD 70).It is helpful to realize that this underlying struggle is the backdrop for Jesus' ministry, and why so many hoped he would be a conquering king. This helps us understand why the adulation of the crowds during the triumphal entry reduced Jesus to tears, and probably why many rejected his message.

    THE RISING STORM Ever since the Romans arrived on the scene in 64 BC, the Jewish people were divided over how to respond to the rule of their often corrupt governors or the Herod family who served them. The religious community, particularly the Pharisees, believed the Jewish people were to be God's instruments on earth, from whom the Messiah would come to institute that glorious age when Israel would be a great and free nation. Many others, especially the secular community and apparently some of the Sadducees, noted the present reality of the rule of Rome and determined that cooperation was the best policy. The tyrannical rule of Rome and the paganism of its religious and Hellenistic culture heightened the contrast between the situation at hand and the messianic hopes. This difference produced increasing fragmentation of the people, and several movements developed in response.

    The Zealots, an ultra-nationalistic group, proclaimed revolution to be God's solution (Acts 5:37). The Essenes withdrew, waiting anxiously for the Messiah to lead a violent overthrow of the Romans and their Jewish supporters. The Sadducees apparently practiced a form of cooperation since it was Rome who kept them securely in their position over the Temple and therefore over the people (John 11:49-50). The Herodions appeared satisfied with the Herod dynasty (Matt. 22:16). The Pharisees, condemning Rome's pagan excesses, were removed from politics and viewed the foreign oppressors as God's hand punishing his people for their unfaithfulness to the Torah. The country was in turmoil, each faction longing in a different way for the freedom they desired. To this climate of confusion, hatred, and division, many so-called messiahs came, each preaching his own brand of salvation (Acts 21:38). Jesus presented his unique message of redemption. Some followed his lead, but many did not. During feast days, especially Passover, tensions reached fever pitch and the Romans increased their military presence to prevent open revolt. The climate existed, however, for revolution to begin.

    Herod Agrippa I, grandson of Herod the Great, died in AD 44 (Acts 12:19-23). The Romans appointed a series of governors called procurators, each apparently more corrupt and cruel than the previous ruler. Groups of rebel sicarii (assassins) were everywhere, killing Romans and the Jews who cooperated with them. Jonathan the high priest was assassinated. During this time, Paul was arrested (Acts 21:27-37) and accused of being one of the rebels (Acts 21:38). Popular support for the Zealots grew. The priesthood became more dependent on the Romans for security and support, and in so doing, they grew increasingly corrupt. This drove the common people toward the radical approach of the Zealots.

    Felix (Acts 24) was replaced by Festus (Acts 25) as governor Both were brutal but ineffective in their attempts to quell the rising revolt. Festus died after a short time. The high priest, Ananus, took this opportunity to murder his opponents, including many in the Christian community and James, brother of Jesus. Ananus was deposed and replaced with a man named Jesus, and then another priest named Jesus. These two were in such opposition that their followers fought in the streets.

    The Roman administration was in disorder, and the Zealots and sicarii flourished. Florus, another governor, attempted to stop the violence by flogging and crucifying hundreds of people. The time was ripe. The desperate hope of a messiah who would bring freedom from political oppression was ready to bear fruit.

    THE REVOLT BEGINS While Christians and Jews were thrown to the wild animals by the emperor Nero in Rome, violence flared in Judea. In Caesarea, a conflict between Jews and Gentiles over activities next to the synagogue had been brewing for some time. In AD 66, on the Sabbath day, a Gentile offered a pagan sacrifice next to the entrance to the synagogue. There was an outcry from the citizens of Caesarea. The authorities in Jerusalem decided to end all foreign sacrifices, including the one for Caesar himself, in the Temple. Florus the governor, who lived in Caesarea, came to Jerusalem with troops, entered the Temple treasury, and took a large amount of gold. When people gathered to protest, Florus unleashed his legionnaires on innocent civilians of the city. Hundreds of women were raped, whipped, and crucified. More than 3,500 people were killed, including women and children.

    The reaction was outrage. Mobs swarmed the streets, driving the outnumbered soldiers out of the city. The people stormed the Antonia (the Roman fort) and burned the archives, destroying records of debts. The revolt spread. The Zealots surprised the Roman garrison and occupied the fortress of Masada. From this fortress, huge supplies of weapons were distributed. Though there were voices urging calm, even the nonpolitical Pharisees joined the Zealot movement in droves.

    The violence mounted within the rebel movement. Another Zealot leader, Eleazar, who then ordered the slaughter of the Roman prisoners remaining in the city, assassinated zealot leader Menahem. There was no turning back.

    A BLOODY REBELLION The Gentiles in Caesarea, hearing of the violence against fellow Romans in Jerusalem, rose against the Jews of that town. Within a day, 20,OOO Jews were killed. This slaughter of men, women, and children, young and old, was repeated in many places in the country and throughout the empire, including Syria and Egypt. Fifty thousand were killed in Alexandria alone. The land ran with blood.

    Gallus, the governor of Syria, advanced on Jerusalem with the twelfth legion. However, Zealots ambushed him in the mountain pass of Beth Horon and his force destroyed. The Romans had lost their advantage, and the Jews gained their national freedom (albeit temporarily) and the weapons of an imperial legion. Nero acted quickly. He ordered his leading general, Vespasian, to end the Jewish problem once and for all.

    Vespasian began his campaign in AD 67 in Galilee, where a young priest, Joseph, was in command. His army numbered more than 50,000 men. Vespasian took Sepphoris, Jotapata (where Joseph surrendered to the general and became the Roman scribe Josephus), and several other towns with brutal force. He also destroyed Gamla, where the Zealot movement began, putting 10,000 people to the sword. Most of the towns of the region were left as smoking ruins. Many men were executed, often crucified, and the women and children were sold into slavery. A few were saved for the games in the arena. Galilee was again Roman.

    Vespasian then conquered the coast, including Joppa, and the lands to the east of Judea. He took Jericho, which guarded the eastern approach to Jerusalem, and Emmaus, which guarded the western. Jerusalem was now isolated.

    In AD 68, the campaign halted due to the suicide of Nero. As Josephus had predicted (a prediction that apparently spared his life), Vespasian became emperor. He left his son Titus to complete the campaign against Jerusalem.

    The situation in Jerusalem was horrible. Several factions of Zealots converged on the city, having been defeated elsewhere. They blamed each other for their defeats. One group controlled the Temple Mount and appointed their own priest. When the Sadducee priests resisted, they were slaughtered along with 8,500 of their supporters. The sewers of the city ran with Jewish blood. Simon Bar Giora, another self-proclaimed messiah, entered the city and fought the Zealots. Confusion and terror reigned. Jerusalem was divided into three sections, each fighting the other as the Romans tightened the noose. Apparently, the Christian community, possibly remembering Jesus' words (Matt. 24:15-16), fled to the mountain regions east of the country, beginning the long separation of Jew and Christian that would bear horrible consequences later.

    In the spring of AD 70, Titus arrived outside Jerusalem. His army now numbered 80,000 or more. Titus breached the third wall near the end of May and slaughtered the people of that part of the city. Five days later, the second wall fell. Half of the city belonged to the Romans. In July, the Romans built a siege wall around the city to prevent escape and to starve the citizenry.

    Unbelievably, the killing between Jewish factions continued. People killed each other over scraps of food. Anyone suspected of contemplating surrender was killed. Because some Jews had swallowed gold coins before trying to escape, their fellow citizens began to disembowel those they caught, looking for money. In one night, 2,000 were ripped open. No one bothered to bury the dead. Many who did surrender were crucified just outside the walls so the hapless defenders could watch their agony. Josephus records that the Roman soldiers nailed people in various positions for their own amusement until they could not find enough crosses for the victims.

    The famine took its toll as well. Josephus reports that 600,000 bodies were thrown out of the city. This may be an exaggeration, but gives a sense of the carnage.

    THE END OF THE REVOLT The Antonia fortress fell in mid-July. On August 6, the sacrifices ceased in the Temple. The Temple itself was burned and destroyed on the ninth of the Jewish month of Ab (the end of August), the same day it had been destroyed by the Babylonians more than 600 years before. It has never been rebuilt.

    On August 30, the lower city fell, and in September the upper. Titus ordered all buildings leveled, except for three towers in Herod's palace, which were left as evidence of his former strength. All the citizens of the city were executed, sold into slavery, or saved for the games in the arena. The slaughter was beyond description. Infants were thrown to their deaths from the top of the city walls, and people were burned alive; the alleys of the city were choked with corpses. Eleven thousand prisoners died of starvation waiting for their execution. Josephus records that more than 1 million perished and nearly 100,000 were sold into slavery. The Jews' holy city was gone and their Temple destroyed.

    A few Zealots took refuge at Herod's fortress of Masada. Here they hoped to outlast the Romans. One can only imagine the state of mind of these people, some of whom had seen Jerusalem fall. Titus left their fate in the hands of Silva, the new governor. The tenth legion laid siege to Masada in AD 72. A wall was built by Jewish slaves around the base of the enormous mountain plateau, six feet high and more than two miles in length. However, there was little chance of starving out the defenders because Herod's extensive storehouses were still filled with food and weapons and his cisterns with water. The Zealots apparently felt safe here.

    Over the next seven months, the Romans built a siege ramp against the western side of the mountain. When the ramp was finished, a battering ram was winched to the top, and Roman soldiers smashed a hole in the fortress wall. The Zealots fortified their wall with timbers, but these were set on fire. That night the Zealots met. Their leader, Eleazar from Gamla, argued forcefully that suicide was the only honorable action. They had seen what the Romans would do to them, their wives, and their children. They had lived their lives for freedom and the opportunity to serve God alone. Now they must remove all possibility of serving anyone else.

    Every man killed his family. Ten men were chosen to kill the Jewish soldiers; one killed the other nine and then committed suicide. In so doing, the Zealots stole the final victory from the Romans ~ The Jewish Revolts

    Matthew 21:43 ~ Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  20. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    God continued to warn people about the impending destruction (after His death, resurrection, and Ascension). He continued to intervene.....like in Acts 5:

    The Apostles Persecuted
    17 Then the high priest and all his associates, who were members of the party of the Sadducees, were filled with jealousy.
    18 They arrested the apostles and put them in the public jail.
    19 But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the doors of the jail and brought them out.
    20 “Go, stand in the temple courts,” he said, “and tell the people all about this new life.”

    21 At daybreak they entered the temple courts, as they had been told, and began to teach the people. When the high priest and his associates arrived, they called together the Sanhedrin—the full assembly of the elders of Israel—and sent to the jail for the apostles.
    22 But on arriving at the jail, the officers did not find them there. So they went back and reported,
    23 “We found the jail securely locked, with the guards standing at the doors; but when we opened them, we found no one inside.”
    24 On hearing this report, the captain of the temple guard and the chief priests were at a loss, wondering what this might lead to.
    25 Then someone came and said, “Look! The men you put in jail are standing in the temple courts teaching the people.”
    26 At that, the captain went with his officers and brought the apostles. They did not use force, because they feared that the people would stone them.
    27 The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest.
    28 “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”
    29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!
    30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.
    31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.
    32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
    33 When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death.
    34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while.
    35 Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men.
    36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing.
    37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered.
    38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail.
    39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019