Christ, Israel, and the fall of Jerusalem

[redleghunter]

I am leaning toward Full Preterism [not hyper preterism!], but remain more Amill/Idealist/Consistant Preterist.
[I do not know enough about "hyper preterism" to comment on it. Doctrinal Implications of Hyper-Preterism]
=======================
I am not so closed minded as to not view the full spectrum of Preterism, so with permission from the OP, I will bring up articles on all forms of Preterism concerning the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem, since Full Preterism can be be discussed on this board.

Discussion on Consistent Preterism and the Impact of AD70 as the Terminal Date (2015)

Discussion on Consistent Preterism and the Impact of AD70 as the Terminal Date (2015)

I think we need to distinguish between full preterism and hyper-preterism.
Full preterism is an optimistic eschatology.
Don’t think I can say the same thing about hyper-preterism, which has led some right out of Christianity

And all this prophecy of what would result from their insolence against the Christ has been clearly proved to have taken place. Afterwards from that day to this that God turned their feasts into mourning, despoiled them of their famous Mother-City, and destroyed the holy Temple therein when Titus and Vespasian were Emperors of Rome, so that they could no longer go up to keep their feasts and sacred meetings. In return for their rejection of the Word of God; since with one voice they refused Him, so He refuses them. - Eusebius


Universalism – The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

Kurt Simmons: The Attack on Full Preterism, Death was Destroyed in AD70? (2007)

Hosea Ballou Study Archive

It appears evident from the above, that the Saviour was informing his disciples how it would fare with them and other professors of Christianity, at the time when Jerusalem should be destroyed, and the Jews dispersed. Continue reading “Hosea Ballou Study Archive”

Kurt Simmons: The Attack on Full Preterism, Death was Destroyed in AD70? (2007)

Introduction

The recent attack upon full Preterism, alleging that it logically leads to Universalism, has made it clear that the question which death was destroyed in A.D. 70 figures prominently in the discussion. In this article we answer this question and trace some of the ideological antecedents leading to Universalism within the Preterist camp. We will conclude that it is soteriology, not eschatology that has led some into Universalism, and this, based upon erroneous assumptions concerning imputed Adamic sin and the Mosaic law

The Preterist Connection

The same result obtains as well logically, not just morally: those who argue for unlimited atonement quickly find themselves in the Universalist camp. Here are some quotes by Preterist writers concerning the destruction of death at the eschaton. The first is by a Reformed minister. The second is also Reformed but, seeing the Universalist implications of full Preterism as interpreted through the rubric of Calvinism, now argues for Pret-Idealism.
The last is from a Baptist background, but verbalizes Calvinism nonetheless, it being generally acknowledged that the Philadelphia Confession of Faith used by Baptist churches was taken from that source.[12] As we will see, their statements are unequivocally Universalist:

Max King, credited by some with the birth of the modern Preterist movement, has given numerous indications in recent years that he has gone over to Universalism. In 2002, Tim King, Max’s son and president of the King’s Presence Ministries, published an article entitled “Comprehensive Grace,” which bore many markings of Universalist thought and sentiment.

We need to see anthropology through the lens of a transformed cosmology. Simply stated, man is changed because his world is changed. Man is reconciled to God because he no longer lives under the rule of sin and death as determined by the Mosaic world.Through the gift of Christ he dwells in a world of righteousness and life.
The issue is cosmic and corporate, not individual and limited.Now, as then, evil does not thwart the “much more” of God’s grace (Romans 5:9, 10, 15, 17, 20).
===================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

The Destruction Of JERUSALEM An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:
INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OFTHE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived..........

The Old Testament is not A-millennia. Jesus was not A-millennial, the Apostles were not A-millennial and the very very early church fathers were not A-millennial.

It was not until Origen and later Eusebius and Augustine do we see the church change to an allegorical interpretation of eschatology. Which ushered in the A-millennial era of the church.

But to be fair to Augustine, he did say that before the second coming of Christ the Hebrew people would convert to Him.

 

[redleghunter]

You were referring to this quote:

​

Well.....it's much more eloquent reading from N.T. Wright....but, in my words, I guess I'd say that most people make the hope of Christianity to be about "when Jesus returns" ......but that leaves us with not much hope in our day to day (especially if we're going through really difficult times). Jesus' work on the cross, His resurrection, and Ascension meant (and continue to mean) a great deal. Reading through the Bible with the backdrop of understanding that God leading the Israelites out of Egypt is a parallel to Him leading us out of the Egypt of sin is paradigm shifting - and gives us hope that God IS who He says He is and has done what He promised to do. He is our king....He overthrew death/sin....He is the ruler of this world (even if it doesn't look like it).

From when Jesus predicted His death:
John 12:28-36 ~
Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

34 The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”

35 Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. Whoever walks in the dark does not know where they are going. 36 Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.” When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.​

That’s a bit ambiguous and convenient choice of texts. In what you quoted Jesus said He was to be lifted up. What do you think He meant by that?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'll quote some of N.T. Wright (this was from a speech he gave at Calvin University):

All four gospels make clear one vital point: that Jesus chose Passover to go to Jerusalem and confront the Temple establishment with his radical counter-claim, knowing where it would lead. He didn’t choose Tabernacles or Hannukah; he didn’t choose the Day of Atonement. He chose Passover, because Jesus’ understanding of his own vocation was to accomplish, once and for all, the New Exodus for which Israel had longed. ~ The Royal Revolution: Fresh Perspectives on the Cross

Hello mkgal.......I am beginning to like N T Wright......
Did you notice what day Titus encompassed Jerusalem in 70AD?

Titus sieges Jerusalem on Feast of Passover/Destroyer in Revelation

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.
===========================
Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "a measure of grain/wheat a denari and three measures of barleys a denari,
and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."

Revelation 18:8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows,
death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her
==========================
Also, Titus and his elite 10th Legion camped as the same place Jesus gave His 70ad Jerusalem/Temple Discourse!

Matthew 24 Mount of Olives and Titus' 10th Legion on Mt Olives 70ad

Please visit my "Jewish Wars" thread

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being? and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-consummation<4930> of the Age?
Mark 13
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell us! when these shall be?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be fully-consummated<4931>.
Luke 21
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
when then shall these be being?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?

Matt 24:6..The Jewish Wars in 1st century...Up to 70ad and Masada
===============================

This is concerning Titus standing on the Mount of Olives.

========================================

Just a little bit of what was happening up to the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem. This site as a plethora of maps and pictures portraying the action going on back then........
=============================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive

MARCH, A.D. 66 - JERUSALEM
The Final Days of the Jewish Commonwealth ; Anarchy Erupts, and the Christians Flee

Numerous signs, prodigies, and portents are seen in the land of Judaea at the outset of the rebellion. Included in those recorded by Josephus, armed hosts and chariots in the clouds are seen flying over all the land of Judaea; a light at night makes the temple appear as though it were on fire; Halley's Comet, in the appearance of a sword, flies over the region. NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory says that the closest approach of the comet that year was in March, immediately prior to the revolt.

Christians seem to have associated this period with the warnings and admonitions of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24, because after the withdrawal of Gallus and the Battle of Beth-horon, a great number of people flee the city of Jerusalem, led by the Mother Church, which headed east over the Jordan River to safety in the area of Pella, Jordan.

APRIL, A.D. 70 - PHASE ONE
THE ROMAN ARMY ARRIVES AT JERUSALEM TO PREPARE THE SIEGE

The first night of Titus' encampment with the 15th, 3rd and 18th Legions, the 5th Legion arrived from Emmaus and set camp north of the city on Mount Scopus.
Later the next day, the famed 10th Legion (founded by Julius Caesar) marched in from Jericho and camped on the Mount of Olives, east of the city.
Instead of waiting to starve the Jews into submission, Titus decides to assault many different parts of the city and overwhelm the defenders. Titus was early on in the middle of the fighting with his soldiers. At least two times, Titus and his detachment are surrounded by defenders, only to escape unharmed.

‘Admirable as were the engines constructed by all the legions, those of the tenth were of peculiar excellence. Their scorpions were of greater power and their stone-projectors larger, and with these they not only kept in check the sallying parties, but those also on the ramparts. The stones that were thrown were of the weight of a talent, and had a range of two furlongs and more. The shock, not only to such as first met it, but even to those beyond them for a considerable distance, was irresistible. The Jews, however, at the first, could guard against the stone; for its approach was intimated, not only to the ear by its whiz, but also, being white, to the eye by its brightness. Accordingly they had watchmen posted on the towers, who gave warning when the engine was discharged and the stone projected, calling out in their native language, "The son is coming," on which those towards whom it was directed would separate, and lie down before it reached them. Thus it happened that, owing to these precautions, the stone fell harmless. It then occurred to the Romans to blacken it; when, taking a more successful aim, as it was no longer equally discernible in its approach, they swept down many at a single discharge.’ Josephus, Jewish Wars, bk. v. chap. vi. 3.

 

[mkgal1]

I do agree our promise of eternal life begins with justification.

And I do agree at that moment we become Kingdom citizens.

And that is because the wrath due us has been satisfied by the selfless sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And His Resurrection is the sure Promise.

I'm not so convinced it was "wrath due us"......but I believe His wrath WAS poured out in 70 A.D.

Quoting from linked article:

1. When John the Baptist spoke of the SOON coming wrath it was further identified as so near that the ax is already laid to the root. This happened (see Malachi 4) 40 years later in the destruction of Jerusalem. There is no way to project that into a time 2000 years later.

2. Paul the inspired Apostle wrote this in Romans 5:15, " For THE LAW RESULTS IN DIVINE WRATH, but where there is no law there is no transgression [of it either]." It is not that we are simply not under law but under grace. It is much more. The Law, its commandments, its priesthood, its expectations, its feasts, everything was destroyed by fire in 70AD. There is no wrath coming on America or the nations because there is NO system or covenant of law. In fact, America isn't Jewish, nor was America there at the giving of the Law. Otherwise God has reinstituted the very thing that he made sure was destroyed.

3. There is no mention of a future wrath of God anywhere in the Bible that speaks to OUR future. The book of Revelation was written to believers in THEIR day about the soon coming destruction of Jerusalem. As such at the destruction of Babylon (Jerusalem... ie, the city where the Lord was crucified, Rev. 11:8) there is an announcement that the wrath of God is finished (Rev. 15:1)! And the only reason he could bring THAT wrath was because they were under the LAW. No law, according to Paul, no wrath.

4. There is no scripture in the Bible that says God poured out his wrath on Jesus at the cross. Rather every scripture indicates that it was men that killed him (see Psalm 22). See also Isaiah 53:

3, He was despised, and rejected OF MEN; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and WE esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne OUR griefs, and carried OUR sorrows; yet WE DID ESTEEM HIM STRICKEN, SMITTEN OF GOD AND AFFLICTED.

In fact, we find in the next chapter of Isaiah (54:7-10), sequentially after the cross, God saying wrath was what Israel would receive,

“For a mere moment I have forsaken you,
But with great mercies I will gather you.
With a little WRATH I hid My face from YOU (Israel) for a moment;
But with EVERLASTING KINDNESS I will have mercy on you,”
Says the Lord, your Redeemer.

“For this is LIKE THE WATERS OF NOAH TO ME;
For as I have sworn That the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth,
So have I SWORN THAT I WOULD NOT BE ANGRY WITH YOU NOR REBUKE YOU.
For the mountains shall depart
And the hills be removed,
But MY KINDNESS SHALL NOT DEPART FROM YOU, NOR SHALL MY COVENANT OF PEACE BE REMOVED”
Says the Lord, who has mercy on you." ~ 5 Reasons Why the Wrath of God is NOT in our Future! — A New Day Dawning

 

[mkgal1]

That’s a bit ambiguous and convenient choice of texts. In what you quoted Jesus said He was to be lifted up. What do you think He meant by that?

Lifted up on the cross. I believe it's a reference to when Moses was instructed to lift up the pole made out of the serpent in the wilderness:

John 3:14 ~ Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up

John 18:32
This was to fulfill the word that Jesus had spoken to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

Numbers 21:8
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.

Isaiah 11:10
On that day the root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples. The nations will seek Him, and His place of rest will be glorious.​

 

[dailyprayerwarrior]

There is some truth in there and some error.

There are no lost tribes. Otherwise James didn't know what he was talking about in the New Testament (James 1:1).

Jesus will come to the earth twice.

The first was as a lamb.

The second time will be as a lion. Right now He is sitting on the right side of the Father's throne but upon His return, He will sit on the throne of David and rule from Jerusalem.

What a sight that will be! Come Lord Jesus, come!

 

[redleghunter]

Hello mkgal.......I am beginning to like N T Wright......
Did you notice what day Titus encompassed Jerusalem in 70AD?

Titus sieges Jerusalem on Feast of Passover/Destroyer in Revelation

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.
===========================
Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "a measure of grain/wheat a denari and three measures of barleys a denari,
and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."

Revelation 18:8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows,
death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her
==========================
Also, Titus and his elite 10th Legion camped as the same place Jesus gave His 70ad Jerusalem/Temple Discourse!

Matthew 24 Mount of Olives and Titus' 10th Legion on Mt Olives 70ad

Please visit my "Jewish Wars" thread

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matt 24:6..The Jewish Wars in 1st century...Up to 70ad and Masada
===============================

This is concerning Titus standing on the Mount of Olives.

========================================

Just a little bit of what was happening up to the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem. This site as a plethora of maps and pictures portraying the action going on back then........
=============================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive

MARCH, A.D. 66 - JERUSALEM
The Final Days of the Jewish Commonwealth ; Anarchy Erupts, and the Christians Flee

Numerous signs, prodigies, and portents are seen in the land of Judaea at the outset of the rebellion. Included in those recorded by Josephus, armed hosts and chariots in the clouds are seen flying over all the land of Judaea; a light at night makes the temple appear as though it were on fire; Halley's Comet, in the appearance of a sword, flies over the region. NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory says that the closest approach of the comet that year was in March, immediately prior to the revolt.

Christians seem to have associated this period with the warnings and admonitions of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24, because after the withdrawal of Gallus and the Battle of Beth-horon, a great number of people flee the city of Jerusalem, led by the Mother Church, which headed east over the Jordan River to safety in the area of Pella, Jordan.

APRIL, A.D. 70 - PHASE ONE
THE ROMAN ARMY ARRIVES AT JERUSALEM TO PREPARE THE SIEGE

The first night of Titus' encampment with the 15th, 3rd and 18th Legions, the 5th Legion arrived from Emmaus and set camp north of the city on Mount Scopus.
Later the next day, the famed 10th Legion (founded by Julius Caesar) marched in from Jericho and camped on the Mount of Olives, east of the city.
Instead of waiting to starve the Jews into submission, Titus decides to assault many different parts of the city and overwhelm the defenders. Titus was early on in the middle of the fighting with his soldiers. At least two times, Titus and his detachment are surrounded by defenders, only to escape unharmed.

‘Admirable as were the engines constructed by all the legions, those of the tenth were of peculiar excellence. Their scorpions were of greater power and their stone-projectors larger, and with these they not only kept in check the sallying parties, but those also on the ramparts. The stones that were thrown were of the weight of a talent, and had a range of two furlongs and more. The shock, not only to such as first met it, but even to those beyond them for a considerable distance, was irresistible. The Jews, however, at the first, could guard against the stone; for its approach was intimated, not only to the ear by its whiz, but also, being white, to the eye by its brightness. Accordingly they had watchmen posted on the towers, who gave warning when the engine was discharged and the stone projected, calling out in their native language, "The son is coming," on which those towards whom it was directed would separate, and lie down before it reached them. Thus it happened that, owing to these precautions, the stone fell harmless. It then occurred to the Romans to blacken it; when, taking a more successful aim, as it was no longer equally discernible in its approach, they swept down many at a single discharge.’ Josephus, Jewish Wars, bk. v. chap. vi. 3.

Every OT prophetic utterance of future events had an immediate or short range fulfillment.

The Messianic prophesies Jesus fulfilled in His First Advent were literally fulfilled. There’s no reason to doubt the Messianic prophecies yet to be fulfilled will be also.

In Revelation the beast and false prophet are defeated. The Gentile Romans won in 70AD.

That alone defeats the idea all prophecy of end times was fulfilled in that period.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<MK>Lifted up on the cross. I believe it's a reference to when Moses was instructed to lift up the pole made out of the serpent in the wilderness:

John 3:14 ~ Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up
John 18:32
This was to fulfill the word that Jesus had spoken to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.
Numbers 21:8
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.
Isaiah 11:10
On that day the root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples. The nations will seek Him, and His place of rest will be glorious.<MK>

end

Justin Martyr A.D. [110-165.] The First Apology Chap. LX. — Plato’s Doctrine of the Cross.
And the physiological discussion64 concerning the Son of God in the Timaeus of Plato, where he says, “He placed him crosswise65 in the universe,” he borrowed in like manner from Moses; for in the writings of Moses it is related how at that time, when the Israelites went out of Egypt and were in the wilderness, they fell in with poisonous beasts, both vipers and asps, and every kind of serpent, which slew the people; and that Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to the people, “If ye look to this figure, and believe, ye shall be saved thereby.”
​

 

[redleghunter]

Lifted up on the cross. I believe it's a reference to when Moses was instructed to lift up the pole made out of the serpent in the wilderness:

John 3:14 ~ Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up

John 18:32
This was to fulfill the word that Jesus had spoken to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

Numbers 21:8
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.

Isaiah 11:10
On that day the root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples. The nations will seek Him, and His place of rest will be glorious.​

What did Jesus mean by it. You avoided that part.

 

[redleghunter]

I'm not so convinced it was "wrath due us"......but I believe His wrath WAS poured out in 70 A.D.

So God poured His wrath out in the Jews? Well Augustine would agree with that.

You are avoiding the entire point of the Cross and empty tomb. Why did Jesus die in the Cross?

What I’m getting from you and NT Wright is He died and rose for some ambiguous “better life” on earth.

Jesus did not promise that. He promised persecution, hate towards His Gospel and those who followed Him.

Jesus Christ as King wore a crown of thorns and never promised us a rose garden on earth.

 

[redleghunter]

There is some truth in there and some error.

Which is how the Adversary has worked throughout human history. To make the message of Truth ambiguous to the point anyone can fly a Swendenborgian 747 through it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Every OT prophetic utterance of future events had an immediate or short range fulfillment.

The Messianic prophesies Jesus fulfilled in His First Advent were literally fulfilled. There’s no reason to doubt the Messianic prophecies yet to be fulfilled will be also.

In Revelation the beast and false prophet are defeated. The Gentile Romans won in 70AD.

That alone defeats the idea all prophecy of end times was fulfilled in that period.

The Roman army didn't just consist of Romans............
Note the 1st 4 minutes of this vid showing the various non Roman forces that joined the Romans in their march toward Jerusalem.....

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70

=======================
Jer 1:15
For behold, I am calling
All the families of the kingdoms of the north,” says the LORD;
“They shall come and each one set his throne At the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem,
Against all its walls all around, And against all the cities of Judah.

Revelation 17:15
And He is saying to me "These the Waters which thou saw, where the harlot is sitting, are peoples and multitudes<3793> are being, and nations and tongues.
16 And the ten Horns which thou saw and the Beast, These shall be hating the harlot,
and They shall be making Her desolate<2049> and naked, and the fleshes of Her they shall be eating<5315> and shall be burning<2618> Her in fire.

Lam 4:12
The kings of the earth, And all inhabitants of the world,
Would not have believed That the adversary and the enemy Could enter the gates of Jerusalem—
================

 

[redleghunter]

The Roman army didn't just consist of Romans............
Note the 1st 4 minutes of this vid showing the various non Roman forces that joined the Romans in their march toward Jerusalem.....

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70

=======================
Jer 1:15
For behold, I am calling
All the families of the kingdoms of the north,” says the LORD;
“They shall come and each one set his throne At the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem,
Against all its walls all around, And against all the cities of Judah.

Revelation 17:15
And He is saying to me "These the Waters which thou saw, where the harlot is sitting, are peoples and multitudes<3793> are being, and nations and tongues.
16 And the ten Horns which thou saw and the Beast, These shall be hating the harlot,
and They shall be making Her desolate<2049> and naked, and the fleshes of Her they shall be eating<5315> and shall be burning<2618> Her in fire.

Lam 4:12
The kings of the earth, And all inhabitants of the world,
Would not have believed That the adversary and the enemy Could enter the gates of Jerusalem—
================

It really doesn’t matter if Greek bagpipers showed up.

The defeat of Jerusalem is not what is depicted in Revelation 19.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It really doesn’t matter if Greek bagpipers showed up.

The defeat of Jerusalem is not what is depicted in Revelation 19.

Nice...

They used trumpets

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

Revelation 8 Commentary- Plagued by Trumpets

The Roman Assault on Israel Began around the Feast of Trumpets Hence the Seven Trumpets of Revelation—Thus Began the Jewish War.

In A.D. 66 while Judea was aflame in bloodshed, riot and revolt, Rome responded by sending the 12th legion in addition to thousands of auxiliaries from neighboring kingdoms. These troops, as if orchestrated by God, arrived in Jerusalem in the Jewish month of Tishri, a month that begins with the Feast of Trumpets. Called the Day of Judgment, it is on this day that trumpets sound the somber days of atonement and final judgment (Leviticus 23:24, Numbers 29:1). Thus began the Jewish War.3
The A.D. 70 Doctrine View, Interpretation, Exposition and Commentary of Revelation 8: In Every Event that Fulfills the Seven Trumpets of Revelation an Audible Trumpet Sound Was Heard.
==========================
The Sound Of The Trumpet

The Apostle Paul used the Roman military trumpet as a metaphor for spiritual battle. First-century historian Josephus wrote that the Roman army did nothing, except by trumpet signals. He listed three specific trumpet sounds, all of which can be devotionally applied.

The first trumpet was a signal to prepare to depart. "Now when they are to go out of their camp, the trumpet gives a sound."(1) The Bible believer should be ready to depart swiftly for any field of conflict as ordered, always ready to fight the good fight of faith (1 Tim. 6:12; 2 Tim. 4:7).

The second trumpet was a signal to form up: "Then do the trumpets sound again, to order them to get ready for the march."(1) At this stage, a believer should have on the whole armor of God. The Lord wants skilled warriors, lined up with others, who will do battle against the wiles of the Devil (Eph. 6:11).
========================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70

You can hear the use of trumpets at about the 2 minute mark......

 

[redleghunter]

They used trumpets

Revelation 8 Commentary- Plagued by Trumpets

The Roman Assault on Israel Began around the Feast of Trumpets Hence the Seven Trumpets of Revelation—Thus Began the Jewish War.

In A.D. 66 while Judea was aflame in bloodshed, riot and revolt, Rome responded by sending the 12th legion in addition to thousands of auxiliaries from neighboring kingdoms. These troops, as if orchestrated by God, arrived in Jerusalem in the Jewish month of Tishri, a month that begins with the Feast of Trumpets. Called the Day of Judgment, it is on this day that trumpets sound the somber days of atonement and final judgment (Leviticus 23:24, Numbers 29:1). Thus began the Jewish War.3
The A.D. 70 Doctrine View, Interpretation, Exposition and Commentary of Revelation 8: In Every Event that Fulfills the Seven Trumpets of Revelation an Audible Trumpet Sound Was Heard.
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The Sound Of The Trumpet

The Apostle Paul used the Roman military trumpet as a metaphor for spiritual battle. First-century historian Josephus wrote that the Roman army did nothing, except by trumpet signals. He listed three specific trumpet sounds, all of which can be devotionally applied.

The first trumpet was a signal to prepare to depart. "Now when they are to go out of their camp, the trumpet gives a sound."(1) The Bible believer should be ready to depart swiftly for any field of conflict as ordered, always ready to fight the good fight of faith (1 Tim. 6:12; 2 Tim. 4:7).

The second trumpet was a signal to form up: "Then do the trumpets sound again, to order them to get ready for the march."(1) At this stage, a believer should have on the whole armor of God. The Lord wants skilled warriors, lined up with others, who will do battle against the wiles of the Devil (Eph. 6:11).
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You can hear the use of trumpets at the 2 minute mark......

The people of God are delivered from the beast and nations in Revelation 19. Christ leads the assault.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The people of God are delivered from the beast and nations in Revelation 19. Christ leads the assault.

Ok...............Hopefully more Preterists will show up, including the OP.........
Maybe tomorrow......g'night

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

 

[redleghunter]

Ok...............

Yes that’s correct. That’s what the text says.

In every OT eschaton prophecy The LORD that is YHWH defeats those who are opposed to His people. In the NT in Revelation, this same theme is established.

It was also understood by the early church:

The Didache
Chapter 16. Watchfulness; The Coming of the Lord
Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. Matthew 24:42 But often shall you come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; Matthew 24:11-12 for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, Matthew 24:10 and then shall appear the world-deceiver as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes that’s correct.
It was also understood by the early church:
The Didache
Chapter 16. Watchfulness; The Coming of the Lord

Same with the 1st century Jews before 70AD as shown in Revelation 18 and 19..........

Daniel 12:1 and Luke 21 same event?
The word "TRIBULATION" does not occur in Luke's Gospel.


Daniel 12:1
"And in that time/season Michael shall stand-up, the great chief prince, the one standing over sons of thy people. And a time of distress<06869>, which not occurred since to become of a nation until that time. And in that time, thy people escape<4422>, everyone being found written in the scroll. [Luke 21:23-36]

These verses spoken before 70AD

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming, and to stand before the Son of the Man.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape<1628>.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

The sceptre of Judah, i . e . its civil and political authority, the life of its religion, and the glory of its temple, were departed. It was, in short, morally and judicially dead. The eagle, whose ruling instinct is rapine and murder, as fitly represented the fierce and sanguinary temper of the Romans, and, perhaps, might be intended to refer also to the principal figure on their ensigns, which, however obnoxious to the Jews, were at length planted in the midst of the holy city, and finally on the temple itself.

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah ! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.

Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly ; thus, not only fulfilling the predictions of our LORD, that these calamities should come, like the swift-darting lightning" that cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the West," and " as a snare on all of them (the Jews) who dwelt upon the face of the whole earth " (Matt. xxiv. 27, and Luke xxi 35,) but justifying, also, his friendly direction, that those who fled from the place should use the utmost possible expedition.
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The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

1 After these I hear as a great sound of a vast throng in the heaven, saying,
"HalleluYah! the salvation and the glory and the honor, and the power of our God;
2 That true and righteous His judgings, that He judges the great harlot who corrupts the earth in Her whoredom, and avenges<1556> the blood of His bond-servants out of Her hand".

 

[redleghunter]

Same with the 1st century Jews before 70AD as shown in Revelation 18 and 19..........

Daniel 12:1 and Luke 21 same event?
The word "TRIBULATION" does not occur in Luke's Gospel.

Luke 21 does address the surrounding of Jerusalem. That is 70 AD. Once again as with the OT a prophecy will have an immediate or short term partial fulfillment.

We await the fullness of the eschaton.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Luke 21 does address the surrounding of Jerusalem. That is 70 AD. Once again as with the OT a prophecy will have an immediate or short term partial fulfillment.
We await the fullness of the eschaton.

Luke and Revelation go together quite nicely......like frosting on a cake.........

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '

Luke 19:43
That shall be arriving<2240> days upon thee, and thy Enemies shall be casting up a rampart<5482> to thee, and shall be encompassing<4033> thee, and pressing thee every which place.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:8
Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.

Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded<2944> by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Nations
and they shall be trampling<3961> the holy City forty two months
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Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints