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Christ is the end of the law

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by bloodygrace, Apr 10, 2017.

  1. A Freeman

    A Freeman New Member

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    If you think these parts of the letters of Paul contradict what Paul said elsewhere in the same letters, or somehow contradict and supersede what Christ has clearly stated in Matthew 5:17-20, then you are obviously in error.

    Christ told us to make disciples of all nations NOT Christians, so your attempt to create a false dichotomy is not only illogical, but a man-made doctrine found nowhere in Scripture. Do you understand this please?

    Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them with the Holy Spirit: in the name of the Father, by the teachings of the Son.

    Christ didn't command us to be disciples and make disciples of all nations because it wasn't the path to salvation; it should be self-evident He commanded us to be and make disciples because there is no other way to be saved.

    Believe Him.



    Salvation is forever and there couldn't be a greater reward than salvation. So what you've stated above is yet another false dichotomy derived from man-made doctrine (the "traditions of men") that is found nowhere in Scripture.

    Christ's sacrifice did atone for our PAST SINS (Rom. 3:25), but it most certainly did not grant us the freedom to sin with impunity. Christ is The Way, The Truth and The Life (John 14:6) so unless someone is following His Example and His TRUE Teachings, found in the Gospels there is no hope of salvation.

    We are the children of Whom/whom we choose to obey. If we obey Father (God) and The Master (Christ), then we are Their children. If we continue to obey Satan (continue in sin, i.e. continue breaking The Law, then we are Satan's children.

    It doesn't get any simpler than that.

    Anyone telling people that it's okay to sin/break God's Law, and that they will be rewarded for being habitual criminals (law-breakers) is doing exactly that, whether they realize it or not.

    From cover-to-cover the Bible is FILLED with a single unambiguous message: obey God ONLY.

    Deuteronomy 30:15-20
    30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
    30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the "I AM" thy God, to walk in His Ways, and to keep His Commandments and His Statutes and His Judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the "I AM" thy God shall bless thee in the land where thou goest to possess it.
    30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
    30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, where thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
    30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
    30:20 That thou mayest love the "I AM" thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey His voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto Him: for He [is] thy Life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the "I AM" sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob/Israel, to give them.

    Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] Apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

    Believing IN Christ is NOT enough; the devil (Lucifer/Satan) believes in Christ, i.e. knows He exists. Lucifer/Satan/the devil doesn't however obey God and Christ, and neither do his (Satan's) children.

    IF properly read and understood, Scripture teaches that there is no such thing as faith without works (James 2:17-26), there is no hope of salvation without obedience to God and His Law, and that anyone claiming differently doesn't know what they're talking about and certainly doesn't know Christ.

    I John 2:1-6
    2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2:2 And he is the atonement for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
    2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep His Commandments.
    2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth NOT His Commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is NOT in him.
    2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    1 John 3:4-10
    3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.
    3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our (past) sins; and in him is no sin.
    3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
    3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    WRONG. That warning was directed specifically toward Christians. The Muslims do not call Christ Lord, nor do the Jews, nor do the members of any other organized religion. Only Christians call Christ Lord, and then refuse to DO what Christ teaches.

    The New Covenant in Christ has the same terms and conditions as the Old Covenant: obedience to The Law/Commandments of God. Period.

    All other interpretations are satanic in nature, and a blatant attempt to get people to believe the dangerous and completely illogical notion that God actually wants us to disobey Him so He can then "save us". The New Covenant is clearly defined in both the Old and New Covenants so that there is absolutely NO doubt that The Law is still in effect today, and that it is the centerpiece of the New Covenant in Christ.

    Jeremiah 31:31-34
    31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the "I AM", that I will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel, and with the House of Judah:
    31:32 Not according to The Covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; My Covenant which they broke, although I was an husband unto them, saith the "I AM":
    31:33 But this [shall be] The Covenant that I will make with the House of Israel; After those days, saith the "I AM", I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people.
    31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the "I AM": for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the "I AM": for I will forgive their inequity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Hebrews 8:10-12
    8:10 For this [is] the Covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My Laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people:
    8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest.
    8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    None of us are righteous, but there are a precious few who are genuinely repentant and humble enough to realize God knows better than all of us combined, and that His Laws are just and fair in all things.

    God gave us The Law to protect us from evil and keep us free, and it is because we haven't kept The Law that we find ourselves in the mess we have today.

    We have a government full of pedophiles and war-mongers, who make up unlawful legislation as fast as they can to make themselves rich and everyone else poor. All of which is a capital offense under God's Law.

    That's why Christ taught The Law and why He said heaven and earth would pass before The Law did. THAT is the Gospel Truth, which is why it is found in the Gospels.

    Christ also promised in the Gospel of John (John 16:25) that during His Second Coming He would no longer speak in proverbs and parables but instead speak plainly of Father (God) and that His Disciples could expect Him to be here NOW, during these end-times (Matt. 24:32-34).

    On The Way to Emmaus Again

    Stop listening to the blind guides of organized religion, and start listening to Christ and His Gospel (Good News) message to YOU before it's too late.
     
  2. listed

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    At best you're very confused as you post is full of conflict to promote and require law keeping.
     
  3. listed

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    No. Luke 24:44 clearly allows for Hebrews 7:12 to be true which is contrary to the law.
     
  4. A Freeman

    A Freeman New Member

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    Not at all. The confusion and conflict rests solely with those who think God actually wants us to disobey Him, and will reward us for doing so, after all of the efforts that have been made to get us to come to our senses.

    Just look at the title of this thread: "Christ is the end of the law" when Christ Himself said: Think NOT that I came to destroy The Law.

    You do understand that Satan is Hebrew and means "the Opposer" don't you please?

    We are the children of Whom/whom we choose to obey. If we obey God and His Law, then we are His children. If we continue to obey Satan and his man-made legislation, rules, policies, doctrines, religious rites and rituals, etc., then we are his children.

    It's that simple. Please take the time to actually read and study Christ's words in the Gospels instead of looking for a way to justify an obvious confirmation bias and selfish desire to remain in bondage to sin through misinterpreting the letters of Paul.

    Christ IS The Master/Teacher. He is the ONLY Teacher (Matt. 23:8-10), the ONLY Mediator between God and men (I Tim. 2:5) and the one and ONLY High-Priest of ALL-time (Heb. 5:6-10).

    Paul was a primary school student and NOT The Teacher, so it is totally illogical to think that IF there was a conflict that Paul's letters would somehow supersede Christ's COMMANDS.

    Anyone who refuses to return to doing their utmost to keep and enforce God's Law ONLY, will spend Eternity in the Lake of Fire, exactly as we've been warned for thousands of years. The wages of sin/breaking The Law are DEATH.
     
  5. A Freeman

    A Freeman New Member

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    WRONG. Luke 24:44 is referring to the prophesies concerning Christ and His Second Coming.

    Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, and [in] the Prophets, and [in] the Psalms, concerning me.

    And Hebrews 7:12 is simply confirmation of Jeremiah 23:1-6, Ezek. 34:1-10, 23, Matt. 23:8-10 and I Tim. 2:5, not to mention the formal end to the priesthood (reducing it to one: the High-Priest of ALL time: Christ) that was physically illustrated when the Temple Veil rent in two at the death of Jesus.

    Read: Passover Lamb NOT Easter Bunny

    See also: Ephesians 2:15, Col. 2:14 regarding the ordinances (animal sacrifice, which was replaced with "self" sacrifice at the cross) which were obviously done away with when the priesthood was reduced to One High-Priest of ALL time.

    But heaven and earth will pass away before the National Moral Law (God's Law/Commandments) changes in the slightest way, exactly as Christ said.

    God's Law contains not only the 10 Commandments, which are the basic principles, but also the perfect agricultural policy, the perfect economic policy, the perfect system of government, the perfect system of justice, and the perfect healthy diet.
     
  6. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Wow! Do you really believe all you wrote? If you do not believe that Jesus fulfilled the law(brought it to an end) and it is not ours to deal with today then your whole theory is based on that falsehood. Pau fortifies in 2Cor 3:7-11 what Jesus said in Matt 5:17-18. The 10 commandments were temporary and are no longer anyone's guide. Study 2Cor 3:7-11/ Our guide is the Holy Spirit.


    How does one baptize a nation?

    Could it be that you are the one with false information?


    Care to make that statement so that we can understand what you are trying to portray?

    It appears that both of you need to re-evaluate your statements.

    Jesus has paid the price for all our sins, past , present, and future. You wrote: "but it most certainly did not grant us the freedom to sin with impunity." (exemption from punishment) What I believe you are writing is that if we sin, after receiving atonement for the past, there is no more atonement in the now and future. I flatly believe that is false.

    So, tell me you don't sin and I will tell you I have found someone who is not telling the truth.

    Anyone espousing what you have written so far needs to re-evaluate.

    From cover-to-cover the Bible is FILLED with a single unambiguous message: obey God ONLY.

    That statement is not about salvation, it is about living in the land of Canaan.

    When I do sin it is not because I have turned away and am not listening nor am I serving other Gods.

    You certainly do not believe those Bible verses has anything to do with eternal life do you? Why are you so intent to prove your point that you sling verses out that really , if studied, have no bearing on the subject?
    That verse certainly does not explain your position.

    Jesus is enough. He is able to keep me from falling and present me faultless before the throne.

    It is obvious that you are not properly reading the verses correctly. James is referring to good deeds and Paul is referring to works of the Torah.

    1Jn3:19-24 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

    It appears you didn't read enough of John's writings to know what he really meant by keeping commandments and all you did was quote out of context.

    I have proven you wrong already enough. The remainder of your post is the same. Go back and finish Jer 31 and He 8. The law was not given to US it was given to Israel and it was not for salvation that it was given Ex 19:5. The law was given only to Israel as a way to live in Canaan. Our covenant is new and better, not like the one given to Israel.

    Bone up my friend. Listen to those who have studied the Word and teach the simple gospel of salvation. Most of all stay away from those who tell you you must keep the law as part of attaining salvation. The law was never meant to be a way of salvation. Ex 19:5
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
  7. listed

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    Conforming to 1 John 3:23 isn't disobedience to God the Father. The Christian isn't obligated to the covenant issued at Sinai in any form. Jesus said we have a new covenant. This is prophesied about by Jeremiah and confirmed by Jesus. Hebrews says our covenant is based on better promises.
    Jesus didn't destroy the law. The contract was fulfilled by Jesus and is no longer valid and replaced with a better covenant.
    And who does that fool, satan oppose? Many, even Christians are deceived by him. That doesn't mean they follow him. My heart goes out to them. I can't join in and embrace their deceptions.
    What is it about John 10:8 you don't understand?

    All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

    Why don't you accept the new covenant? The things you go on about are firmly established in the NT and aren't traditions of men. The sabbath isn't required of the Christian in Romans 14 and Colossians 2. Paul says to throw out the law in Galatians 4. Paul says we're delivered from the law in Romans. No where does Paul say we're obligated to the law. Jesus doesn't teach or require the law. Nothing in any of John's writings will support obligation to the law including Revelation.
    I've done my homework and done as you've requested. John 3, 5, 10 and 15 strongly disallow your view of obligation to an amended law keeping.
    So I don't get why you're so adamant about amended law keeping. The Christian isn't obligated to the covenant.
    No where does Jesus Christ require or teach law keeping. So when Paul says to throw out the law, he's not opposing anything Jesus said. When Paul says we're delivered from the law, he's not opposing anything Jesus said.

    Abraham kept God's law which isn't the ten commandments. Moses says so in Deut 5:3. I believe Moses.
     
  8. listed

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    Maybe you should read what Luke 24:44 says. It says all things are fulfilled as a direct reference to Matthew 5:17-18. I understand your point-of-view. It comes from your indoctrination and not the Scripture. You can deny all you want.

    Hebrews 7:12 is a direct conflict and violation of the law. Verse 11 validates my position. If Jesus is a priest, He violates the law and is a sinner just like us. That means He doesn't qualify as the Messiah, Redeemer being without sin. That is totally unacceptable for the Christian. Thus jots and tittles of the law have passed making it no longer valid for the Christian. The law is a single law as both Paul and James say. It's all or nothing.

    For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

    To keep the law in any form is to establish one's own righteousness outside of Jesus. That's impossible.
     
  9. listed

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    It seems your idea about Luke 24:44 does though. That would be posing Jesus against Himself making Him a fraud.
    Exactly. A disciple is called a Christian. Many who appear to take the designation of Christian, aren't. I think you're trying to teach Christians are or become Jews at least in practice.
    Why then do you preach keeping the law is required? Jesus doesn't. Please read the Gospel of John.
    Absolutely, I do.
    The word reward implies obligation for payment. The payment for work is death. Romans 6:23. I tried won't get any one passed the judgment. Believing Jesus will.

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    No one here except the law people suggest such a thing.

    Amen to John 14:6.

    Do you follow Jesus' example? I suggest no. Do or have you ever sinned? Are you celibate? Do you walk on water or tell the waves to lay still and they obey? When have you spoken to a palsied hand and restored it to perfection or told a crippled person to walk? Have you been baptized naked in front of a crowd of mixed gender and age? Aren't you really aiming at requiring the law be kept?
    Because you sin you're self condemning yourself. What right do you have to do this in light of Romans 14:4?

    Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
    Is not keeping the sabbath criminal? Are you really accusing us of murdering and other capital crimes? Based on what?
    Did you miss Deuteronomy 28? Israel must have.
    Or women. But you're really trying to invalidate the NT.
    Correct. A person must accept Jesus as their redeemer. Satan doesn't, won't and can't ever do this. People have this option and opportunity.
    James isn't teaching works of the law. Read the chapter.
    1 John 3:23 is carefully avoided.
    Jesus Christ no where teaches the law as a requirement. Read John's Gospel.
    Not according to the prophecy of Jeremiah.
    I'd be more careful here. I understand you're defending your indoctrination.
    The red bolded text is totally ignored to promote your idea.
    You missed verse 6.
    Romans 11:32.
    I agree with you here. This simply has nothing to do with a Christian. It's off topic and out of place.
    Jesus didn't bring or teach the law (John 1:17).
    Jesus did that in Luke 24. Jesus spoke about the destruction of Jerusalem in Matthew 24:32-34.
    I've taken this advice long ago.
     
  10. A Freeman

    A Freeman New Member

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    What was shared is the truth. Anyone who believes that Christ did away with The Law, when Christ Himself specifically stated the exact opposite, is in error, as you clearly are.

    Matthew 5:17-19
    5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
    5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from The Law, till all be fulfilled.
    5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least COMMANDments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.

    The original Greek word that has been translated into fulfill is "pleroo".

    πληρόω plēróō, play-ro'-o; from G4134;
    to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence),
    satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:—accomplish, × after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

    Let's substitute the definition you wrongly think "fulfill", i.e "pleroo" means into the verses above to see how they would read, using YOUR words (Satan's really - shown in red below).

    Matthew 5:17-19
    5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to (bring it to an end).
    5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from The Law, till all be (brought to an end).
    5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least COMMANDments (that you FALSELY claim Christ "brought it to an end") , and shall teach men so (as you are trying to do), he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall DO and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.

    It should be self-evident you are wrongly teaching others to believe that Christ contradicts Himself repeatedly, both within the same sentence, and in context with the surrounding verses.

    When someone destroys something that brings it to an end. Christ said THINK NOT THAT I CAME TO DESTROY THE LAW (not once but twice in the same sentence), and yet that is exactly what you are doing, and trying to convince others to do the same, which God Himself condemns as being the lowest of the low (the LEAST).

    Matthew 5:17-19
    5:17
    Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but (to fully preach).
    5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from The Law, till all be (fully preached - see Mark 13:10).
    5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least COMMANDments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall DO and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.

    <Staff Edit> Christ teaches us to keep The Commandments. So you are teaching the exact opposite of Christ, whether you realize it, or admit it, or not.

    <Staff Edit>

    Paul said, "It is NOT I That Lives"
     
  11. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi Freeman, well someone is wrong, the Apostle Paul and I agree with each other, so if I am wrong as you stated then so is Paul. That is very clear. Paul wrote in Gal 3:19 the following: 19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. A little later on Paul also shared this gem 23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. Now I ask that you put that in your pipe and smoke it a bit.(old saying :)) BY the way, I note that you didn't elaborate on the fact that Jesus closed His statement in Matthew 5 with "until everything is accomplished". You need to add that to your pipe. Did Jesus not fulfill all that He came to do? Would God shirk His duty to mankind? Why did Jesus utter the words "it is finished"? Why did Paul write that the 10 commandments were temporary? 2Cor3

    Are you aware that the law Jesus was referring to, Torah, was not given to Israel for their salvation? Read Ex19:5-6 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” The law was the way Israel was to live in the desert and in the land of Canaan. It had nothing to do with their salvation yet you are making the law part of the plan of salvation, salvation by telling us we must keep the law. Are you wearing your tassels? Do you cut your sideburns or send your women out of camp when needed? Do you start a fire by starting your combustible engine on your car on Sabbath? Do you really "keep" Sabbath as scripture indicates you should?
     
  12. listed

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    Prove Luke 24:44 isn't true.
     
  13. A Freeman

    A Freeman New Member

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    Yes. And it isn't Christ, Who clearly stated The Law is still in effect today. Unless of course you feel heaven and earth have already passed away and we are now having this conversation from the great beyond.

    You keep misquoting the letters of Paul, and claiming to be in agreement with them, when in actual fact you clearly don't understand the letters of Paul, as evidenced by your mistaken beliefs that Paul contradicted Christ and that we should take your mistaken interpretation of the letters of Paul over the words directly from the mouth of Jesus.

    Paul himself clearly stated he was living by The Law, that The Law/Commandments of God are holy, just and good and that he was establishing The Law everywhere he went (Rom. 7:25, 7:12, 3:31). That's why Paul issued the following warning in his letter to the Romans, i.e. to the very cradle of the organized religion known as Christianity (Rome is New Babylon):

    Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of The Law [are] just before God, but the DOERS of The Law (The Torah) shall be justified.

    It should therefore be self-evident that it is you who are wrong, as you not only mistakenly think Paul contradicts himself and Christ but that Christ also contradicts Himself.

    <Staff Edit>

    The wages of sin (breaking The Law) are DEATH (Eze. 18:4, 20, Rom. 6:23).

    Christ (The Law made flesh) came to free us from our bondage to sin, and return us to keeping The Law, i.e. obeying God ONLY.

    You would have others believe that Jesus died in vain, i.e. that Christ somehow wanted the world to become even more evil/sinful/lawless than it already was before His sacrifice on the cross.

    <Staff Edit>
    We are told that during Christ's Second Coming, He will MAGNIFY THE LAW AND MAKE IT HONOURABLE (Isa. 42:21), which leaves no doubt that we MUST return to keeping The Law to avoid being executed for treason against God, exactly as we've been warned for thousands of years.

    Malachi 4
    4:1 For, behold, the Day cometh, that shall burn like an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, that it shall leave of them neither root nor branch (nothing).
    4:2 But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in The Day that I shall do [this], saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts.
    4:4 Remember ye and return to The Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the Statutes and Judgments.
    4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the "I AM" (Sura 43:61):
    4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse (see verse 1 for the details of the curse).

    Those who serve and obey God are His Children. Those who serve and obey Satan (the Opposer) are Satan's children. We are the children of Whom/whom we choose to obey.

    John 8:35-36 (John 8:44-45 KJV)
    8:35 Ye are of [YOUR] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the Truth, because there is no Truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father (inventor) of it.
    8:36 And because I tell [you] the Truth, ye believe me not.

    Anyone who mistakenly thinks that Christ came to change The Law that our changeless Creator gave us to protect us from evil (sin) and keep us FREE (from bondage to sin) is so far into Satan's grip that there is no hope.

    SIN = EVIL =LAWLESSNESS = DEATH

    OBEDIENCE TO GOD = GOOD = LIFE

    Deuteronomy 30:15-20
    30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
    30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the "I AM" thy God, to walk in His Ways, and to keep His Commandments and His Statutes and His Judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the "I AM" thy God shall bless thee in the land where thou goest to possess it.
    30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
    30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, where thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
    30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
    30:20 That thou mayest love the "I AM" thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey His voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto Him: for He [is] thy Life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the "I AM" sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob/Israel, to give them.

    All of the above Scriptural quotes are from The King of kings' Bible.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  14. listed

    listed are you?

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    Who is promoting disobedience? First a person must be subject to or under jurisdiction to disobey anything. The Christian isn't under the jurisdiction of the law. That make your whole argument false.
    Yes and most of us hve and use the meaanings of words found in a dictionary. Most of us understand English enought o select the applicable meaning.
    Yes, he is extremely jealous opposing grace which allows us to possess eternal life. The law doesn't do this. No one can or has except Jesus (God).
    Obedience to God or the law? You don't promote obedience to God. You promote obedience to the law. The obedience you promote is only a partial obedience at that.
    I'm not in bondage to sin. Sin isn't my lifestyle.
    Yous say this. To me they are empty vain words from you because you serve the law and try to get others to do the same. You can serve the ministration of death if you like. When nitty gets to gritty you must admit failure and are condemned by the law. The Christian can't be condemned by the law. Romans 8:1
    So you want to ignore Acts 9:15. What's new? Nothing.

    But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
    No!

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
     
  15. listed

    listed are you?

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    Not if you read what the text says.
    Never-the-less Hebrews 7:12 isn't in compliance with the law. Verse 11 explins the reason.
    I've absolutely no interest is false doctrines and practices of organized religion.
    Then you freely admit jots and tittles of thelaw have passed and are void.
    You fail in reading what the text says in both Matthew and Luke.
    What is your point? No one complies. Glad you recognize the truth of your statement though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  16. Aseyesee

    Aseyesee Well-Known Member

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    Christ is the end of law (in relationship to the revealing of our nakedness), singularly because, the mind of Christ is the mind of God, (a kingdom possessed, or city entered); there not being nothing in it less than him.
     
  17. listed

    listed are you?

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    No. Jesus was talking about the things concerning Himself as Luke 24:44 says.
    But Jesus said: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. Jesus didn't say keep the law.
    The problem with your implication is there aren't any doers of the law. Paul and Peter were living like gentiles in Antioch. That isn't keeping the law.
    It's you that promotes this false idea trying to put words in the mouth of others.
    You keep violating the rules of the forum by attacking another. Above you accuse another of promoting a satanic agenda. This is a tactic of false brethren used against Christians.
    Very good. Now if it was only understood.
    This is double speak usually recognized as a lie.
    This has no connotation of making us able to comply with the law.

    And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers....All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
    Those who think there's salvation in the law are sadly mistaken. Righteousness isn't by the law. See Romans 4.
    Now where does it say anything about eternal life?
     
  18. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    <Staff Edit>

    We can lead a person to water, but we cannot make them drink. If you so adamantly believe you are still under the Law then tell us:

    How many of the 613 rules that make up the Law are you observing?

    Are you wearing the four tassels on the four corners of your garments?

    Are you "keeping" the Sabbath as prescribed in the covenant given only to Israel?

    You indicate you are married, are you sending your wife out during her period?

    Are you positive that Israel didn't use the Lunar calendar as their reference as to when the Sabbath occurred?

    Where in all of scripture does it tell us that the Law was given for salvational purposes?

    Paul wrote in Gal 3:17 the following: 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

    The old covenant was not about eternal salvation. It was about how the Israelites were to live in the land promised by God to Abraham for Israel. Ex 19:5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

    <Staff Edit> In Christ, Bob
     
  19. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you Listed. It is very kind of you to answer that post and I am in full agreement with your entire post.
     
  20. A Freeman

    A Freeman New Member

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    Anyone who thinks that obedience to The Law that God gave us is not obedience to God is so far into Satan's grip there's no hope. Talk about double-speak.

    God gave us His PERFECT Law of Liberty to protect us from evil and keep us free. It is the bane of human existence that after thousands of years, and Christ's Sacrifice to give us a second chance to keep The Law, that most are still in open rebellion to God and Christ.

    Christ stated the following:

    Matthew 7:13-14
    7:13 Enter ye in at the "Strait" gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    7:14 Because Strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] The Way, which leadeth unto Life, and few there be that find it.

    The "few" who will find the "Strait" gate that leadeth unto life are the 144,000 that will be redeemed from the Earth, exactly as Christ said (Rev. 7:4-9, 14:1-3).

    The "Strait" gate is obedience to God and His Law, exactly as Christ-Jesus taught and exemplified.

    Peter warned that the broad path would include those who misinterpret the letters of Paul, exactly as many in this thread are doing, by promoting the LIE that Paul did away with The Law and that the letters of Paul supersede the COMMANDS of Christ to keep The Law, WHICH IS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD.

    2 Peter 3:15-16
    3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the Wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
    3:16 As also in all [his] epistles (letters), speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other Scriptures, unto their OWN destruction.

    The human/ego/"self" cannot accept correction and thus is offended when it is presented the truth which would dethrone it.

    The "self" MUST be crucified DAILY exactly as both Christ and Paul said.

    Luke 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

    Galatians 2:20 My "Self" is crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I (the "Self"), but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Anyone who doesn't learn to overcome their "self" i.e. crucify the "self" daily (and all of its selfish wants and desires) will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God, but will instead spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

    Only the ego/"self" is offended by this LOVING warning.

    Learn to destroy the ego or it will destroy YOU (the Soul/spirit-Being within).

    Peace be upon YOU.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
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