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Christ is the end of the law

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by bloodygrace, Apr 10, 2017.

  1. listed

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    Since you don't follow the example set by Jesus, what are you really trying to say?
     
  2. bloodygrace

    bloodygrace Newb Member

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    Was Paul going down the right path by keeping the law and killing Christians? After his conversion he preached faith and love and disavowed law keeping.
     
  3. bloodygrace

    bloodygrace Newb Member

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    Christ was God and you're not. He lived under the old covenant prior to the cross which is not the same as today.
     
  4. jaybird88

    jaybird88 Active Member

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    pretty sure the law says not to murder and Paul would have been in the same fallen away state the pharisees were in. they could teach the law but they didnt do what they taught.
     
  5. jaybird88

    jaybird88 Active Member

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    did Jesus teach people that? i dont remember Him ever teaching anyone He is above His followers and the the followers can not do what He does. He teaches He is one of us.
    is that why He says the law will stand until heaven and earth pass away?
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  6. bloodygrace

    bloodygrace Newb Member

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    Pretty sure Jesus said if you hate your already murderer.
     
  7. bloodygrace

    bloodygrace Newb Member

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    The law was fulfilled at the cross for believers. For carnal unbelievers it's still in force.
     
  8. A Freeman

    A Freeman New Member

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    Christ, Who is THE Master/Teacher (He is the ONLY Teacher - see Matt. 23:8-10) made it crystal clear that The Law is still in effect today, and that anyone who teaches otherwise is the lowest of the low in God's Eyes.

    Matthew 5:17-19
    5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
    5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from The Law, till all be fulfilled.
    5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least COMMANDments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.

    The original Greek for the word "fulfill" was "pleroo" which means TO FULLY PREACH. It cannot possibly mean anything else, or it would contradict the rest of the verse where it is used (Matt. 5:17) as well as the next two verses that follow it (Matt. 5:18-19).

    Anyone claiming differently doesn't know or have any love for Christ, exactly as Christ said.

    John
    14:15 If ye love me, KEEP my COMMANDments.

    That's why they desperately try to make the case that their misinterpretation of Paul, WHO WAS A PRIMARY SCHOOL STUDENT AND NOT THE MASTER/TEACHER, somehow supersedes or overrides Christ's COMMAND for us to keep The Law/Commandments of God.

    Paul said, "It is NOT I That Lives"

    Paul actually told us that he himself was keeping The Law, that The Law was holy, just and good, and that he was establishing The Law everywhere he went so that people would keep The Law, instead of just talking about it (like the Jews).

    Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (Being) I myself serve The Law of God; but with the flesh (human) the law of sin.

    Romans 7:12 Wherefore The Law [is] holy, and the Commandment holy, and just, and good.

    Romans 3:31 Do we then make void The Law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish The Law.

    Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of The Law [are] just before God, but the DOERS of The Law (The Torah) shall be justified.

    Satan has been trying to get people to think that God actually wants us to disobey Him (sinning/breaking The Law - I John 3:4), and that He will reward us for doing so, even though God has been warning us for thousands of years to stop listening to Satan and stop disobeying Him or He will be forced to execute us on Judgement Day (e.g. Mal. 4).

    That's why Satan created all organized religion, including Christianity, to get people to actually disobey God and Christ, and join him (Satan) in The Fire on Judgement Day.

    For any of you who want to continue to disagree with God and Christ, Who are the inspiration of this TRUTHFUL and loving warning being given to YOU, please consider the following verses very carefully.

    I John 2:3-4
    2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep His Commandments.
    2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth NOT His Commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is NOT in him.
     
  9. bloodygrace

    bloodygrace Newb Member

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    The spiritual aspect of the law 'love' is still in force. The fleshly and carnal commandments or 'Torah' are no longer in force for believers or Christians. James even referred to love as the royal law of scripture.
     
  10. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Salvation is by grace, through faith, not of works.

    Anyone who thinks they are earning their way into heaven is sadly mistaken. God's standard is absolute perfection, which is why we need Christ's righteousness, not our own.

    Jesus is the only Way to be saved.

    The will of the Father is that we believe on the Son. In so doing, we are saved.

    Christ has by Himself purged our sins, it is finished, as He said. He did not fail. He has fulfilled the Law, because He alone met all of its requirements perfectly.

    Verse after verse confirms that we are saved when we believe in Jesus. (Faith).

    It's either grace, or it's works, it cannot be both.

    Do you believe that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross truly is sufficient to wash away our sins? Or do you think that we must add to that perfect sacrifice in some way?
     
  11. listed

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    To add to your point, I ask:Why did Moses flee Egypt? Was it because he had the law or that he recognized what he did was wrong (sin)? Moses said no one prior to Israel had the law.
     
  12. listed

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    Why did Jesus follow the law?
     
  13. listed

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    Do you mean keep the law?
     
  14. A Freeman

    A Freeman New Member

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    Ephesians 2:8-10
    2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
    2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (do them - good works).

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.

    Revelation 20:12-13
    20:12 And I saw the "Dead", small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another Book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life: and the "Dead" were judged out of those things which were written in the Books, according to their works.
    20:13 And the "sea" gave up the "Dead" which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their WORKS.


    Please note well the above are Christ's own words, and His revelation to John.

    Matthew 7:21-27
    7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven; ONLY he that doeth the Will of my Father which is in heaven.
    7:22 Many will say to me in That Day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work inequity.
    7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a Rock (the Truth):
    7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a Rock (the Truth).
    7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them NOT, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

    Christ died for our PAST SINS, because we didn't keep The Law (i.e. we continued in sin, for sin is breaking The Law - I John 3:4), NOT to give us the freedom to sin with impunity as you are suggesting.

    Romans 3:25 Whom God hath fore-ordained [to be] an atonement through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;

    Matthew 5:17-19 previously quoted clearly states that The Law is still in effect today (heaven and earth haven't passed) and that anyone who teaches differently (i.e. teaches people it's okay to break the Commandments/Law because they are "saved by grace") is the lowest of the low (the LEAST) in God's Eyes.

    Christ said "think NOT that I came to destroy The Law" so anyone who is saying the opposite is a liar, and the truth is NOT in them. Stop listening to these blind guides because they are leading their unwitting (?) victims straight into The Fire, exactly as Christ warned (Matt. 15:14).

    And yet you provided none. The truth is faith is believing Christ-Jesus, NOT just "in" Him. The devil/Satan believes "in" Christ, i.e. knows that Christ exists, but he does everything in his power to oppose him. The title Satan is Hebrew and means "the Opposer".

    And there is no such thing as faith without works. The two go hand-in-hand. Always have, and always will.

    James 2:17-26
    2:17 Even so FAITH, if it hath not WORKS, is DEAD, being alone.
    2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will SHOW thee my faith BY my works.
    2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils (liars) also believe, and tremble.
    2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain (worthless) man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD?
    2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar (and God made him your example)?
    2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS was faith (trust in God) MADE PERFECT?
    2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed ONLY God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.
    2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by WORKS, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
    2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also.

    As above please. There is no faith without works, and there is no grace without Faith ("for by grace ye are saved THROUGH faith"). So your claim is clearly in error, as it is completely unscriptural.

    Do you feel you can show your appreciation for Christ's Sacrifice on the cross by continuing in sin/disobedience to Him? Please take the time to read the verses previously quoted, which expose the erroneous man-made doctrine you espouse for what it is: satanic.

    John 14:15, 21-24
    14:15 If ye love me, KEEP my COMMANDments.

    14:21 He that hath my COMMANDments, and KEEPETH them, HE it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    14:22 Jude saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will obey my words: and my Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    14:24 He that loveth me not obeyeth not my sayings: and the Truth which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

    I John 2:1-5
    2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2:2 And he is the atonement for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
    2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep His Commandments.
    2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth NOT His Commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is NOT in him.
    2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

    Sin defined:-

    I John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.

    Don't be fooled into thinking Christ came and suffered the agony of the cross to increase sin and evil in this world. Breaking The Law makes us criminals, and no criminal can "see" much less enter the Kingdom of heaven.

    We all need to remember and return to keeping The Law, or we will find ourselves facing The Fire on Judgement Day, exactly as we've been warned.

    Learn The Way home or face The Fire.


    All quotes are from The King of kings' Bible
     
  15. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Read Romans 4 and Galatians 5

    Also, understand that you are mixing salvation (which is by Christ's work and our faith in His finished work) with discipleship (which comes after we are saved, born again, passed from death to life and then able to walk in the good works that He has prepared for us)

    Also, you are mixing salvation with eternal rewards. The Bible does speak of heavenly rewards, but salvation is not one of them. Salvation is entirely by grace through faith in what Christ has done. We have done nothing to earn it and we can do nothing to keep it, for it is not a reward for the good things we have done. Christ alone is perfect and His sacrifice was absolutely enough to purge our sins.

    As for the accusation you are making that I am actually encouraging people to break the commandments and disobey God; I have never once said such a thing. You can read every single post I've ever made on this forum in the 13 years I've been a member, and you will see I have not.

    What I have said (and what Scripture teaches) is that our good works will not save us, because we have not kept the Law perfectly, all have sinned. To say otherwise is to suggest we really don't need a Saviour at all, because we can just get to Heaven on our own merit and by our own "righteousness."

    As the Bible says, only those who do the will of the Father will enter Heaven and the Bible tells us what the will of the Father is, to believe on the Son.

    "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:38-40

    The ones that come before Jesus and say "Lord, Lord", are those who bring their own works and merits to Him, asking Him, "didn't we do many wonderful works in you name?" And Jesus will reply, "depart from Me, I never knew you."

    "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

    For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

    For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." - Romans 4:1-5

    "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God..." - Romans 6:1


    "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:14-18


    Read Scripture carefully and in context. Our works do not save us, only Christ does. And He will never leave us or forsake us.

    Also, telling people their works do not save them (as the Bible says) does not equal telling them to disobey God. We have freedom in Christ, but we should obviously not abuse that freedom.

    "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

    For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

    For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

    For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

    And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

    Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

    Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

    For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

    There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

    For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

    Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." - Hebrews 4:1-11


    Christ is our Sabbath. We are not working our way into heaven but have entered into rest, through faith in His finished work.

    Believing the Gospel is what saves us. Not our attempts at obedience.

    God bless.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  16. bloodygrace

    bloodygrace Newb Member

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    I was using the term 'law' in general. Most Christians when they first come to faith go thru a period of works righteousness where they try to be good by what they do. Every church has some standard of righteousness usually based on the ten commandments.
     
  17. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of whether I do a great job or a poor job of following Christ's example, it doesn't change the fact that we ought to follow it.

    There is much evidence of God's laws being in place throughout Genesis, so the Law didn't change what is in accordance with God's eternal righteousness, but rather it revealed what has always been and will always be in accordance with God's eternal righteous ness.

    Because he is holy, righteous, righteous, good, just, merciful, faithful, loving, joyful, peaceful, kind, gentle, and self-controlled.

    He set an example of keeping the Law and as his followers we are told to follow his example.
     
  18. listed

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    This verse is about the judgment of the wicked. Jesus said the righteous have already passed the judgment in John 5:24.
    Who suggested this? Will you quote them?
    No the passage doesn't. Luke 24:44 is a direct reference to your passage saying the all things of it have been fulfilled. More proof is Hebrews 7:12.
    If you'd listen I would quote Scripture proving your statement to be wrong.
    Now that could lead to flaming if it were discussed.
    Not so. YOur claim is the above passage is about works of the law. This can't be true because Abraham didn't have the law as Moses said in Deuteronomy 5:3.
    None oft he above passages show the ten commadnments to be those given by Jesus. John 15:10 proves this without doubt. There's no "10" in any of your passages.
    And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
    The word also dosn't ever mean only.
    Yes and the law doesn't make a person righteous. No one has ever kept the law. Both testaments support that fact.
    John 10
     
  19. listed

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    Yes and this is very unfortunate. Generally what is preached and demanded is performance of the flesh. Very few people understand this. It almost cost me my relationship with God. The system preached doesn't work. No one can obligate God.
     
  20. listed

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    There's no passage suggesting the Christian follow the law to be found in the NT. There's also no passage in the NT indicating a christian is Israel obligating them to the covenant issued at Sinai. Even if there was Romans 7 says "we are now delivered from the law." For even the Jewish believer this is true because Paul uses the word "we." Paul is a Jew.
    Then Moses is wrong in Deuteronomy 5:3.
    There's no passage in the NT requiring this. You're misapplying unquoted Scripture.
     
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