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Christ is NOT God. He is an HEIR of God!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Dec 23, 2001.

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  1. epobre

    epobre Guest

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    Blalron,

    You wrote:


    Believe what?

    Ed
     
  2. The Squalid Wanderer

    The Squalid Wanderer The Fool

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    "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle--I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying--a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth." 1 Timothy 2:5-7

    Now a mediator ought to have communion with both parties, between whom he is to mediate. For this is the property of a mediator, to be in close communion with each of those whose mediator he is. For he would be no longer a mediator, if he were connected with one but separated from the other. If therefore He partakes not of the nature of the Father, He is not a Mediator, but is separated. For as He is partaker of the nature of men, because He came to men, so is He partaker of the nature of God, because He came from God. Because He was to mediate between two natures, He must approximate to the two natures; for as the place situated between two others is joined to each place, so must that between natures be joined to either nature. As therefore He became Man, so was He also God. A man could not have become a mediator, because he must also plead with God. God could not have been mediator, since those could not receive Him, toward whom He should have mediated. And as elsewhere he says, "There is one God the Father, ... and one Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor. 8:6); so also here "One" God, and "One" Mediator; he does not say two; for he would not have that number wrested to Polytheism, of which he was speaking. So he wrote "One" and "One." You see how accurate are the expressions of Scripture! For though one and one are two, we are not to say this, though reason suggests it. And here thou sayest not one and one are two, and yet thou sayest what reason does not suggest. "If He begat He also suffered." "For there is one God," he says, "and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." (HOMILY VII. - Saint John Chrysostom)
     
  3. The Squalid Wanderer

    The Squalid Wanderer The Fool

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    The most conclusive verse of scripture for the Orthodox position is John 10:30 - "I and my Father are one."

    In addition to this there are many scriptures which attribute divine attributes to Christ.

    Onmipresence - Mt. 118:20; 28:20; Jn 3:13

    Self-existence - Jn 5:26

    Eternity - Jn 8:58; Jn 17:5

    Equality with God - Jn 10:27-30

    Divine knowledge - Mt 11:27; Jn 10:15

    Christ even claims for himself the divine name in Jn 8:58 and other passages throughout the Gospel of John with the expression I AM (Ex 3:13,14

    Finally, read the first chapter of the Gospel of John, it conclusively says that the Word (Jesus Christ) was God.
     
  4. epobre

    epobre Guest

    +0
    Desmios,

    You have just violated one of God's commands by subtracting from 1 Tim. 2:5 the phrase, "the MAN Christ Jesus." Why my friend? Hasn't anybody told you NOT to ADD to nor SUBTRACT from the word of God?

    Think about this my friend. When apostle Paul wrote 1 Tim. 2:5, where was Jesus? Wasn't Jesus already in heaven? If that is the case, don't you believe that apostle Paul was telling the TRUTH when he said the the "only mediator between God and men" is the MAN Christ Jesus who was then and is NOW in heaven?

    I don't have to respond to the remainder of your post regarding this issue because it is moot and academic. Apostle Paul has declared that the ONLY ONE who is MEDIATING for us NOW is the MAN Christ Jesus and he is in heaven.

    WITHOUT adding anything to John 10:30, it does NOT support the belief that Jesus is ALSO God IN ADDITION to the FATHER. Other than the Trinitarian interpretation that Jesus and the Father are one...God, this verse could also mean that Jesus and the Father are one...shepherd, considering the CONTEXT.

    These verses do NOT explicitly tell us that Jesus is God and could be interpreted in more than one way.

    On the other hand, John 8:40 EXPLICITLY tells us that Jesus is a MAN and John 17:3 EXPLICITLY tell us that the FATHER is the ONLY TRUE God. There is NO OTHER interpretation that could be ascribed to these verses.

    John 1:1 and the first part of John 1:14 do NOT refer to Jesus. Consider the following my friend and answer them sincerely and HONESTLY:

    1) Do you believe that EVERYTHING apostle John wrote is TRUE (John 21:24)?

    2) Do you believe that EVERYTHING Jesus said is TRUE (John 14:6)?

    3) Do you believe that EVERYTHING Jesus said is a COMMAND from God (John 12:49)?

    4) Do you believe that apostle John and 500 others SAW Jesus AFTER he was raised from the dead (1 Cor. 15:5-:cool: ?

    If you answered YES to this questions, then apostle John DID NOT BELIEVE that Jesus is God. You know why? Because he wrote in John 1:18 that "NO ONE has ever SEEN God at ANY time."

    Either your interpretation of John 1:1 and John 1:14 (word became man) is FALSE or John was telling a LIE when he wrote "NO ONE has ever SEEN God at any time" in John 1:18.

    I don't believe John was telling a LIE my friend. Do you?

    Ed
     
  5. The Squalid Wanderer

    The Squalid Wanderer The Fool

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    If I were to follow your argument to it's logical extent I would be unable to quote anything from Scripture without posting the entire Scripture. The division of chapters and verses is not inspired, therefore I am not obligated to follow them.

    However, so that you may be able to intelligently address the post, I will edit it so as to add the segment you mentioned.
     
  6. The Squalid Wanderer

    The Squalid Wanderer The Fool

    416
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    I posted a response to your John 1:18 argument on another thread, but will repost it here for your convenience:

    Actually, I believe John 1:18 would be militated against you...

    For if Christ were only man, then he would not have seen God, and therefore would not have been able to declare Him to us. But because Christ is the Word which became flesh and dwelt among us He is the only one who is qualified to declare God to us, because as God, Christ is the only one who could fully know God.

    As for Christ not being the Word,
    John 1:14,17

    Also, please note that it is not a problem for orthodox Christians to say that Jesus Christ is a man, for He is one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one essence with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one essence with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and being, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.
     
  7. epobre

    epobre Guest

    +0
    Desmios,

    Are you saying that Jesus was telling a LIE when he said he is a MAN (John 8:40)? And if indeed apostle John BELIEVED that Jesus is God, are you saying that he LIED when he wrote, "NO ONE (including himself) has SEEN God (Jesus) at any time"?

    And where can we find the verse that says Jesus SAW God? And if Jesus is the ONLY ONE who is qualified to declare God to us, why would you THINK that apostle John would IMPLY that the WORD that was God and became MAN is Jesus?

    For your information, Jesus declared that NO ONE knows WHO the son is but the Father and NO ONE knows WHO the Father is but the son and to whom the son wills to reveal Him (Luke 10:22).

    The SON has declared that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Apostle John heard this and he wrote it. Do you THINK apostle John would IMPLY that Jesus is God after hearing Jesus say that the FATHER is the ONLY TRUE God?

    Ed
     
  8. The Squalid Wanderer

    The Squalid Wanderer The Fool

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    What I am saying is that you are suffering under a false dilemma, that Jesus Christ cannot be God and Man.
     
  9. epobre

    epobre Guest

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    Desmios,

    Why do you say I'm suffering under a dilemma (true or false) that Jesus cannot be God and man? I'm NOT in any kind of dilemma at all because I'm CERTAIN, based on Jesus' words himself, that Jesus is a MAN and CANNOT be God.

    Consider the following:

    1) God says MAN is FLESH (Gen. 6:3);
    2) Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40);
    3) Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3);
    4) Jesus says God is SPIRIT (John 4:24);
    5) Jesus says a SPIRIT (God included) does NOT have FLESH and bones as he has (Luke 24:39);
    6) Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Tim. 2:5 (AFTER Jesus ASCENDED to heaven) that there is ONE God and ONE mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus.

    Anyone who makes Jesus God MAKES Jesus and his apostles LIARS. And this CANNOT be!

    Ed
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
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    "1) God says MAN is FLESH (Gen. 6:3);
    2) Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40);
    3) Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3);
    4) Jesus says God is SPIRIT (John 4:24);
    5) Jesus says a SPIRIT (God included) does NOT have FLESH and bones as he has (Luke 24:39);
    6) Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Tim. 2:5 (AFTER Jesus ASCENDED to heaven) that there is ONE God and ONE mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus. "

    okay, Yup, I agree with 1, 2, 4 and 6. The assertions you make in 3 ad 5 are wrong. It never says the father is the one and only God. In Luke 24:39 it says nothing about God being a spirit or not having flesh in comparison to himself (the risen Christ). Jesus is God as the bible repeatly shows. Col 2:9 being the easiest to understand. Phil 2:5-8 also. Jesus shows that he is God in Luke chapter 5 and says it many other places. John chapter 1 shows how God became man.
     
  11. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Ed.. as alwasy you have failed ot show us that Only The Father is the One true God. And you have faled ot show us that Jesus Cannot be God.
     
  12. epobre

    epobre Guest

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    LouisBooth,

    Any RATIONAL person will agree that John 17:3 EXACTLY means that the FATHER is the ONE and ONLY God. Cross-reference this with Is. 44:8; Is. 46:9; Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8; Mal. 2:10 and 1 Cor. 8:6. These verses tell us that there is ONLY ONE God and that ONLY ONE God is the FATHER.

    Any RATIONAL person will agree that Luke 24:39 COMPARES God who is SPIRIT (John 4:24) with the MAN Jesus (John 8:40) who has FLESH and bones. While God is not mentioned in this verse, there is NO doubt that when Jesus says SPIRIT, it includes God. Only a BLIND FANATIC cannot see this.

    You AGREE that 1 Tim. 2:5 was written AFTER Jesus ASCENDED to heaven. Can't you understand what apostle Paul is telling us about WHAT Jesus is NOT?

    If you FAIL to understand what these verses TRULY mean, and they are very easy to understand, I can't see how you could understand what apostle Paul wrote in Colossian 2:9 and Phil. 2:5-8 considering that Paul's letters are HARD to understand and UNSTABLE and UNTAUGHT men TWIST to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

    Ed
     
  13. epobre

    epobre Guest

    +0
    ZoneChaos,

    Since you think like LouisBooth, I'm posting the SAME reply to your post. Here goes:

    Any RATIONAL person will agree that John 17:3 EXACTLY means that the FATHER is the ONE and ONLY God. Cross-reference this with Is. 44:8; Is. 46:9; Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8; Mal. 2:10 and 1 Cor. 8:6. These verses tell us that there is ONLY ONE God and that ONLY ONE God is the FATHER.

    Any RATIONAL person will agree that Luke 24:39 COMPARES God who is SPIRIT (John 4:24) with the MAN Jesus (John 8:40) who has FLESH and bones. While God is not mentioned in this verse, there is NO doubt that when Jesus says SPIRIT, it includes God. Only a BLIND FANATIC cannot see this.

    You AGREE that 1 Tim. 2:5 was written AFTER Jesus ASCENDED to heaven. Can't you understand what apostle Paul is telling us about WHAT Jesus is NOT?

    If you FAIL to understand what these verses TRULY mean, and they are very easy to understand, I can't see how you could understand what apostle Paul wrote in Colossian 2:9 and Phil. 2:5-8 considering that Paul's letters are HARD to understand and UNSTABLE and UNTAUGHT men TWIST to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

    Ed
     
  14. nevetstrebla

    nevetstrebla Guest

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    I haven't been partaking in any of the discussions here for a while because every single topic is the same. I was hoping that you all would find something else to discuss. Anyway, is Jesus God? Well, most of us have studied the scriptures and know that He is indeed, but there are those who are unaware.

    There are many instances in the Word of God where we find that Jesus was God. Consider when Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Matthew 4:5-7: Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Why would Jesus say, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God," if He was not God Himself?
     
  15. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    nevetstrebla,

    This topic will never end. I hoped for an end to for a long time but I gave up hope. The problem with it is that is very hard to discuss anything else about christendom if you disagree about this point. It seems to just pop up again and again.

    blackhaw
     
  16. Any RATIONAL person will agree that John 1 says that the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God, and the WORD BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONGST US! :)

    Ed, we believe that there is only one God. Please try and understand that.

    I care for you Ed, and I'll continue to pray that God leads you to the truth.
     
  17. The Squalid Wanderer

    The Squalid Wanderer The Fool

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    Your criticisms have been answered, your proofs refuted. I see now that no amount of explaining from myself will change your beliefs.

    Read over my posts again for your responses to them are weak and insufficient. I will not reply to this again seeing that you have not yet disproved the arguments I have already posted.
     
  18. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    True. So do I. I have toild you that. I agree with what this verse says. This verse does not say that only the Father is the one and only God.

    I agree with this to. I know there is only one God. I know that the Father is the only one God. You are not talling me anything that I do not already know to be true, and accept to be true.

    BUt what you have also claimed, which you have yet to show, is that Only the Father, and not the Son or the Spirit, is the Only one true God.

    Did the Apostles think they were seeing the Holy Spirit of God when Jesus appeared to them? Or did they think they were seeing, what Humans have always been afraid of, since they were children.. a ghost? Did they think they were seeing "the Spirit" or "a spirit"?

    Your truth hinges on the answer.
     
  19. Ed, do you notice the "AND Jesus Christ" part of that verse? Of course you don't. :)

    If we know in advance that they are both God, and they are both the same God, then it doesn't produce any conflict.

    My Left brain is my brain. My Right Brain is my brain. But they aren't two brains, they are ONE brain. So if my left brain said to my right brain "I want people to know you as the only true brain, AND the left brain whom you have sent" it doesn't mean that my left brain isn't also my brain, does it?

    He is Spirit, but is he a GHOST? Because in Luke 24:39 they didn't think they saw God, they thought that they saw a GHOST. BIG DIFFERENCE.

    Tell me, Ed, can a SPIRIT appear as a BURNING BUSH? How then did God appear as one to Moses? :)

    Ed?

    Never mind. :)
     
  20. epobre

    epobre Guest

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    nevetstrebla,

    Jesus was NOT referring to himself when he said this. The devil was quoting Psalm 91:11-12 and Jesus answered the devil by quoting Deut. 6:16 in return. To understand these verses better, I suggest you read the Today's English Version (TEV) of Matt. 4:7 and Deut. 6:16 where the word "test" is used instead of "tempt" referring to what the devil said about God ordering His angels to bear him up.

    This issue will NEVER end for as long as people STRIVE to find ways and means to PROVE Jesus WRONG! Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Why can't people BELIEVE Jesus and take his word at face value?

    Ed
     
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