Christ had nothing to with Christmas and its a pagan holiday?!? Nimrod related.

Jipsah

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Theology of Christmas has the following characteristics:
1. An oral tradition passed down from the previous generation; for Catholics dating back to the mid-fourth century, Protestants back to the mid-nineteenth century.
2. Feelings of melancholy and euphoria at the time of the winter solstice.
3. A faith in Christmas is right because an organized religious institute says so and secular society accepts it.
4. Willful disregard for what Scripture teaches regarding celebrating birthdays or embracing pagan holidays.
Interesting, Eph. Utter nonsense, but interesting all the same.

What I find even more interesting is the Christian sects who seem to insist on mining the Old Testament to find new "laws" to try and bind Christians with, and to try and make their particular novel beliefs seem "better" than what Christians as a whole believe. The disturbing part of that is that those folks (and yes, it appears to me that you're one of them) seem to set more store by Judaism than they do by Christianity. They insist that the OT feasts that were merely foreshadowings of the coming of our Lord and Savior should be observed, but preuly Christian feasts that revolve around the Risen Lord Himself are, and should be, verboten. Their "proofs" for their positions generally boil down to "if it isn't in the Law it's pagan and thus forbidden", which is probably a valid position if you're a Jew, but one that's passing strange for someone living under the New testament of our Lord Jesus Christ.

My question is this: if you want to be a Jew, then why not simply become one and leave off all the pseudo-Christian posturing? Wouldn't that simplify things for you tremendously?
 
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Jipsah

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Second Phoenix, you are entitled to your set of opinions, but not your set of facts.
<ROFL> Facts are fairly plastic things from your standpoint though, are they? It seems a "fact" to you is any tale you can get someone to believe, and reality be blowed. So you blythly invent "facts" that have not even the vaguest bearing on reality and pontificate on them as though they were the Gospel.

I'll present one such citation that refutes your opinion now.
"The de-Christianization of Christmas is blatant: few people attend midnight mass these days, and Father Christmas/Santa Claus is more important than Jesus.
Wow, I reckon that dudes opinion is all the "facts" we need, huh? <Laugh>

"The American Puritans did not celebrate Christmas
The American Anglicans, however, did. So what?

, since for the strict Protestants there was no Biblical foundation for this celebration
For that sect, anyway. ;)

And this stuff was supposed to refute something, was it?

Fail.
 
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Eph4:26

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3. (The Theology of Christmas is) A faith in Christmas is right because an organized religious institute says so and secular society accepts it.
Christmas is not a 'theology'.

. . .

It's accepted because it has always been practiced. No one needs to say it is 'right' - it just always was.

'Always' goes as far back as the mid-1850's.

Here is the 15 largest protestant churches in America. None of them celebrated the Christ-mass 160 years ago.

1. Southern Baptist Convention: 16.2 million members
2. The United Methodist Church: 7.8 million members
3. The Church of God in Christ: 5.5 million members
4. National Baptist Convention: 5.0 million members
5. Evangelical Lutheran Church, U.S.A.: 4.5 million members
6. National Baptist Convention of America: 3.5 million members
7. Assemblies of God: 2.9 million members
8. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): 2.8 million members
9. African Methodist Episcopal Church: 2.5 million members
10. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America: 2.5 million members
11. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS): 2.3 million members
12. The Episcopal Church: 2.0 million members
13. Churches of Christ: 1.6 million members
14. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World: 1.5 million members
15. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church: 1.4 million members

The 15 Largest Protestant Denominations in the United States
 
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MoreCoffee

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It's so...bizarre that this thread continues. Has no one heard of the Genetic Fallacy? Sheesh!

aiki . . . you are correct. :thumbsup:

The original poster left the discussion long ago and the topic of Nimrod hasn't been spoken of even longer.

That is why I'm leaving this discussion to start a new one that is more topic focused.

:wave:

Perhaps having the nature of the genetic fallacy spelled out will help
Wikipedia said:
The genetic fallacy, also known as fallacy of origins, fallacy of virtue, is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context.

The fallacy therefore fails to assess the claim on its merit. The first criterion of a good argument is that the premises must have bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim in question. Genetic accounts of an issue may be true, and they may help illuminate the reasons why the issue has assumed its present form, but they are irrelevant to its merits.

Eph4:26, I think that the point of mentioning the fallacy is to draw to the attention of those who think that Christmas has pagan origins that it is completely irrelevant what origins it may have when it is celebrated by Christians in Christian worship today as praises of Christ and God in bringing about our salvation through the incarnation and the second advent of the Lord, Jesus Christ.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by aiki
It's so...bizarre that this thread continues. Has no one heard of the Genetic Fallacy? Sheesh!
:D

Originally Posted by Eph4:26
aiki . . . you are correct. :thumbsup:

The original poster left the discussion long ago and the topic of Nimrod hasn't been spoken of even longer.

That is why I'm leaving this discussion to start a new one that is more topic focused.

:wave:
Keep us informed of that :wave:


.
 
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Jipsah

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'Always' goes as far back as the mid-1850's.
After very brief research on the net, this quote:

"In 1805, when James Iredell of North Carolina was attending college at Princeton, he was surprised to learn not everyone observed Christmas. He wrote that Christmas, at home “welcomed with so many demonstrations of joy, is here regarded almost with perfect indifference & passed over as but little more than an ordinary day.”

Care to try a different made-up number?

Here is the 15 largest protestant churches in America. None of them celebrated the Christ-mass 160 years ago.
Which could possibly have to do with the fact that none of those organizations existed 160 years ago. ^_^

Good grief!

Again, Eph, if you don't think the coming of our Lord is worth celebrating, then don't celebrate it. Do Channukah or something in keeping with your Old Testament religion. (Then again, Channukah is suspiciously close to the solstice, and may actually be a pagan feast being passed off as Jewish. Oh, the horror!)
 
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Second Phoenix

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3. (The Theology of Christmas is) A faith in Christmas is right because an organized religious institute says so and secular society accepts it.

No - because it came from early Christianity. I like how you totally dismiss everything that was said - and go on another logical fallacy.

'Always' goes as far back as the mid-1850's.

Here is the 15 largest protestant churches in America. None of them celebrated the Christ-mass 160 years ago.

1. Southern Baptist Convention: 16.2 million members
2. The United Methodist Church: 7.8 million members
3. The Church of God in Christ: 5.5 million members
4. National Baptist Convention: 5.0 million members
5. Evangelical Lutheran Church, U.S.A.: 4.5 million members
6. National Baptist Convention of America: 3.5 million members
7. Assemblies of God: 2.9 million members
8. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): 2.8 million members
9. African Methodist Episcopal Church: 2.5 million members
10. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America: 2.5 million members
11. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS): 2.3 million members
12. The Episcopal Church: 2.0 million members
13. Churches of Christ: 1.6 million members
14. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World: 1.5 million members
15. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church: 1.4 million members

The 15 Largest Protestant Denominations in the United States

You respond to the fact that Christmas has 'always' been celebrated by the world Christian majority since the early Church... by mentioning the top protestant churches in the United States and claiming they didn't celebrate Christmas? Does that register as a valid argument to you?

BTW, even if protestant American Christianity constituted the whole of Christianity for all time, you still have it wrong.

2. The United Methodist Church: Celebrated Christmas, Anglican tradition
3. The Church of God in Christ: Began in 1907
4. National Baptist Convention: 1880
5. Evangelical Lutheran Church, U.S.A.: Celebrated Christmas
6. National Baptist Convention of America: 1915
7. Assemblies of God: 1988!!
8. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): Celebrated Christmas
9. African Methodist Episcopal Church: Celebrated Christmas, Anglican tradition
10. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America: 1988!!
11. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS): Celebrated Christmas
12. The Episcopal Church: Celebrated Christmas
13. Churches of Christ: 1906
14. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World: 1914
15. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church: Celebrated Christmas, Anglican tradition[/quote]

So, all of them either didn't exist in 1850, celebrated Christmas at that time, or celebrated Christmas since they were invented after 1850... with the exception of Southern Baptist Convention.

So, your argument is that because the Southern Baptists didn't celebrate Christmas since 1850 - it hasn't always been celebrated within Christianity. Yeah, that makes sense.
 
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Rev Randy

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After very brief research on the net, this quote:

"In 1805, when James Iredell of North Carolina was attending college at Princeton, he was surprised to learn not everyone observed Christmas. He wrote that Christmas, at home “welcomed with so many demonstrations of joy, is here regarded almost with perfect indifference & passed over as but little more than an ordinary day.”

Care to try a different made-up number?

Which could possibly have to do with the fact that none of those organizations existed 160 years ago. ^_^

Good grief!

Again, Eph, if you don't think the coming of our Lord is worth celebrating, then don't celebrate it. Do Channukah or something in keeping with your Old Testament religion. (Then again, Channukah is suspiciously close to the solstice, and may actually be a pagan feast being passed off as Jewish. Oh, the horror!)

The Horror.AVI - YouTube

^_^:D^_^:D^_^:D
 
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Eph4:26

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Jipsah, I'll admit it. I skipped over your original post out of habit. However, when Randy the Revelator quoted it and affirmed it, I took a second look.
After very brief research on the net, this quote:

"In 1805, when James Iredell of North Carolina was attending college at Princeton, he was surprised to learn not everyone observed Christmas. He wrote that Christmas, at home &#8220;welcomed with so many demonstrations of joy, is here regarded almost with perfect indifference & passed over as but little more than an ordinary day.&#8221;
Your 'brief research' is wanting for content.

My slightly more than 'brief research' reveals that a 'James Iredell of North Carolina' around 1805 was a CATHOLIC!!!

Hence, a catholic visiting the protestant campus of Princeton University would indeed be surprised to learn no one observed the Christ-Mass. In addition, it is no small coincidence that Princeton plays a critical role in shaping the face of what the venerable Harold Bloom calls the American Religion that we live with today. The era that we now live in has no resemblances to the Christian Tradition prior to the Revolutionary War in America.

I have much more documentation to support the secular (pagan) roots of the mid-nineteenth century to the modern day tradition of Christmas.

But I'll leave that for the new thread I'm preparing.

:preach:
 
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Rev Randy

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Jipsah, I'll admit it. I skipped over your original post out of habit. However, when Randy the Revelator quoted it and affirmed it, I took a second look.

Your 'brief research' is wanting for content.

My slightly more than 'brief research' reveals that a 'James Iredell of North Carolina' around 1805 was a CATHOLIC!!!

Hence, a catholic visiting the protestant campus of Princeton University would indeed be surprised to learn no one observed the Christ-Mass. In addition, it is no small coincidence that Princeton plays a critical role in shaping the face of what the venerable Harold Bloom calls the American Religion that we live with today. The era that we now live in has no resemblances to the Christian Tradition prior to the Revolutionary War in America.

I have much more documentation to support the secular (pagan) roots of the mid-nineteenth century to the modern day tradition of Christmas.

But I'll leave that for the new thread I'm preparing.

:preach:

Randy the Revelator? Now I remember you. But it would seem you've changed your username.
 
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