Christ gave his life as a ransom

bling

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Any view that sees atonement as "one small part" is a cheap substitute for the real gospel.

Contrare. . .you alter the gospel and press that alteration like a used-car salesman.
It is the atonement sacrifice that is only a part of the atonement process. You can look at Lev. 5 to see the whole atonement process for sins.

The good news is Christ's life including the cross. What am I saying that is not the good news?
 
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Clare73

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It is the atonement sacrifice that is only a part of the atonement process. You can look at Lev. 5 to see the whole atonement process for sins.
There is nothing more to the work of atonement than Jesus' sacrifice.
The good news is Christ's life including the cross. What am I saying that is not the good news?
The good news is also that the works of the redeemed are simply Jesus' two commands of Matthew 22:37-41; Romans 13:8-10. Anything more is man's unauthorized invention--"will worship" (Colossians 2:22-23, KJV), devising our own ways of honoring God instead of honoring him only in the way he has authorized in his word written.
 
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bling

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I agree. But this idea of kidnapping is not Scriptural. It is a conjecture based on history. I render to Caesar what is Caesar's (taxes only) , and to God what is God's (in this case, His Traditions in understanding the word "ransom").
The audience being addressed in the first century (the context) knew about kidnapping, it was standard practice at the time. The writers and Jesus would use the very best words to communicate to their first century Jew/gentile audience. The last entries to the OT happened 400 years earlier.

The OK let’s leave the word “kidnapping” to the side. The idea is

Revelation 5:9 And they *sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation

1 Peter 1:18-19 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

The question is still: who was holding you back, who was paid, and why was the payment unbelievably huge. Christ is not paying God, but the person is purchased for God. The person is not redeemed (set free) from death (they died spiritually already under the Law and will die physically), but from their worthless pursuit of salvation by the Law. Continuing to pursue salvation through the Law is a choice on their part. The Prophets and John the Baptist taught salvation through repentance, seeking God’s Love and God’s forgiveness, but without Christ going to the cross it was hard to change our ways.

We are not told we will be free from sin and death, but we are free from the worthless pursuit of salvation through trying to obey the Law, but who is holding us back forcing us to try and pursue salvation by the Law?

Christ has set us free from our own worthless pursuit, if we will accept what He has done over the Law.

A payment is definitely being made by Christ and since God is receiving the children that come as the result of the payment, God is not the one receiving the payment. We also know not all people are purchased, but they do come from all groups of people. The cause for the lack of all being purchased is not Jesus’ fault, he would want to buy everyone, so that leaves the seller not selling. The seller is not accepting the payment.

If the seller is sin, death, evil or some other intangible, those things are not capable of accepting or rejecting the payment.

Christ is offering to pay all sinners to become slaves of God, if they are willing to take the payment.



Intellect is important to the human experience. However, intellect and imagination with repect to the Scriptures may make idols of the mind by which we give
belief. Hence worship. The intellect constrained by Scripture will produce truth. Intellect without constraint will produce magic. I prefer the tree of life than the
tree of knowledge of what is up and down and all around.
Is knowledge bad in and of itself?

To grow we need knowledge, which can also be translated experience. Faith and Love grows with use.


Sacrifice means (Merriam-Webster) "an act of offering to a deity something precious". It could be for a penalty (sin offering - female lamb). It could be for
redemption/ransom (Passover - male lamb). It could be for a daily sacrifice (bread). It could be for a holocaust (male lamb).
We are talking specifically about sin offerings and what the Bible says, Webster is not a good source since it includes pagan sacrifices.


I am sure you have. But saying every sacrifice is "penalty" takes away the meaning from Passover and the holocaust. Cain had his own understanding of a sacrifice and look where it ended.
I never said all sacrifices are penalties because they are not and the Bible points that out, but sin sacrifices were penalties as the Bible points that out and you can realize from your own experience.


I agree context is important. But what is the appropriate context to compare the NT. The law and history of ancient rome or the law and history of the OT. Jesus specifically asked that a donkey be purchased so He can fulfill an OT prophecy. It is written that the interpretations of the NT must conform with OT.
I am not having any issue conforming the OT and NT, but the words spoken to first century non-Christian Jews, Christians (Jew and Gentile) and non-Christian Gentiles has to take into consideration how they would understand the verses at the time. They might only understand the earthly Story from Jesus’ parables at the time they heard them.

To assume all gentiles and Jews used only the Old Testament meanings to word would be a huge assumption. The 12 seemed at the time Jesus spoke lacking a lot of knowledge of the OT.


There is something missing with your recipe. It needs a dash of repentance..make that tablespoons..er..cups...barrels? Sins will be forgiven because we have accepted Christ in our hearts and mind, thus we have a huge capacity to truly repent. Repent and sin no more. We are not the little princelings and princesses of King Jesus inheriting his Perfection by some magical genetics. We are temples so He may dwell in us. Without Him, it is just another body waiting to be a corpse. Sin is not transfigured, our resistence to sin has increased. There is only one sin that is unforgivable, that is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
A hell bound sinner does not personally have the power to repent (stop sinning) within them, but after receiving Godly type Love and the indwelling Holy Spirit they can stop sinning. “If you Love me you will obey me”, but the Love comes first. Repentance comes after the person does what little He can do (really nothing of value), but a sinner can humbly accept pure undeserved charity (Christ) as charity, for selfish reasons.


Death is "as if you were never born". The book with your name on it will be toss into the eternal lake of fire. All information of you will be destroyed. The pages will be ash. The file of your life will be deleted, contents will be overwritten with FF, all links will be overwritten.
Jesus is Perfect and was made flesh. Jesus placed Himslf on the line - His Potency and Majesty - for the sake of humanity. He endured His existence as a defilable creature and still remained without blemish. It is not that the flesh is blameless but the spirit is indomitable. The Holy Spirit and sinning are contradictions in terms. They cannot coexist in logic. They can only coexist in the hearts of humans for a brief period when one shuts the door on the other. Quenching of The Holy Spirit implies sinning in actuality or in potentiality. Sinning means there is no spirit of holiness. Sinning and quenching..., they mean the same.
Why do we quench the Spirit?


No pearls before swine, as it is said. Apologetics with atheists and agnostics use metaphysics and logic to argue. There is no need to share the Scriptures until their worldview is shown to be absurd and cannot survive genuine scrutiny. The food that is the Scriptures is meant for the few that sit at the table of the Lord, not the dogs around the table and especially the swine outside of the courtyard.
Scripture is written not in a vacuum, it was written with the Holy Spirit. It is inerrant. Amen.
I set the seed with agnostics and atheist, but if they are happy with their life at the time it is extremely hard to make inroads. I have one example, where I was repeatedly put down/mocked by an agnostic coworker who had it “all” together, but years late driving him home from a trip (he had to much to drink) he opened up about his marital problems at the time an want a Christian perspective, we had some really good talks after that and he was open to change.
 
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bling

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There is nothing more to the work of atonement than Jesus' sacrifice.
The good news is also that the works of the redeemed are simply Jesus' two commands of Matthew 22:37-41; Romans 13:8-10. Anything more is man's unauthorized invention--"will worship" (Colossians 2:22-23, KJV), devising our own ways of honoring God instead of honoring him only in the way he has authorized in his word written.
If Christ's sacrifice is everything there is about atonement, is everyone's sins atoned for and if not why not?
 
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Clare73

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If Christ's sacrifice is everything there is about atonement, is everyone's sins atoned for
Salvation is the atonement applied, condemnation removed, right standing with God's justice secured, reconciliation with God finalized.

"Whoever does not believe in the name of the Son stands condemned" (John 3:18)

"Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36)
and if not why not?
You'll have to take that up with Jesus, I didn't make the rules.
 
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bling

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Salvation is the atonement applied, condemnation removed, right standing with God's justice secured, reconciliation with God finalized.

"Whoever does not believe in the name of the Son stands condemned" (John 3:18)

"Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36)

You'll have to take that up with Jesus, I didn't make the rules.
Jesus in the Bible did a great job explaining it, so I have only praise for what he said and did.
 
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Chi.C

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The OK let’s leave the word “kidnapping” to the side. The idea is

Revelation 5:9 And they *sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation

1 Peter 1:18-19 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

The question is still: who was holding you back, who was paid, and why was the payment unbelievably huge. Christ is not paying God, but the person is purchased for God. The person is not redeemed (set free) from death (they died spiritually already under the Law and will die physically), but from their worthless pursuit of salvation by the Law. Continuing to pursue salvation through the Law is a choice on their part. The Prophets and John the Baptist taught salvation through repentance, seeking God’s Love and God’s forgiveness, but without Christ going to the cross it was hard to change our ways.

We are not told we will be free from sin and death, but we are free from the worthless pursuit of salvation through trying to obey the Law, but who is holding us back forcing us to try and pursue salvation by the Law?

Christ has set us free from our own worthless pursuit, if we will accept what He has done over the Law.

A payment is definitely being made by Christ and since God is receiving the children that come as the result of the payment, God is not the one receiving the payment. We also know not all people are purchased, but they do come from all groups of people. The cause for the lack of all being purchased is not Jesus’ fault, he would want to buy everyone, so that leaves the seller not selling. The seller is not accepting the payment.

If the seller is sin, death, evil or some other intangible, those things are not capable of accepting or rejecting the payment.

Christ is offering to pay all sinners to become slaves of God, if they are willing to take the payment.
There is the smoke of blasphemy with what you say. The Divine is the Sole Recipient of sacrifices. Man does not have the majesty nor competence to receive such things. God is not an Object which we can unilaterally force a relationship. He is a Person whom we must entreat to accept us.

Jesus willingly accepted His Role as Ransom, but it is God dictating it's process. Jesus prays after last supper - Matthew 26:39 "And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."". God sacrified the Lamb to free us from our date with death. God redeemed our the bondage of sin with the sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son.

The law was never meant as a tool for salvation - 1 Tim 1:9 "understanding the fact that law is not enacted for the righteous person [the one in right standing with God], but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers," It was enacted to protect us, both saint and sinner.

Is knowledge bad in and of itself?

To grow we need knowledge, which can also be translated experience. Faith and Love grows with use.
Knowledge is not bad in and of itself, but how the knowledge is used and acquired. Learning how to make a gun is not wrong, but using to kill someone is. Learning psychology not bad, but using it to taking advantage of lonely housewives is. Learning how to pick locks not bad, but using it to steal your neighbour's stuff is bad. Knowledge must be constrained by principle. Sherlock Holmes - good. Moriarty - bad.


We are talking specifically about sin offerings and what the Bible says, Webster is not a good source since it includes pagan sacrifices.

I never said all sacrifices are penalties because they are not and the Bible points that out, but sin sacrifices were penalties as the Bible points that out and you can realize from your own experience.
Then the male lamb is the paschal lamb or a holocaust - biblical. The meaning is prescribed and relatable.
My sin experience is with rod that was not spareth. A thing I try to forget ....

I am not having any issue conforming the OT and NT, but the words spoken to first century non-Christian Jews, Christians (Jew and Gentile) and non-Christian Gentiles has to take into consideration how they would understand the verses at the time. They might only understand the earthly Story from Jesus’ parables at the time they heard them.

To assume all gentiles and Jews used only the Old Testament meanings to word would be a huge assumption. The 12 seemed at the time Jesus spoke lacking a lot of knowledge of the OT.
The NT is written in Greek. The translators and interpreters were probably Greek Jewish converts. The 12 apostles were Jews. Was their OT knowledge it up to the standard of Jesus? No but the OT was in their blood. Furthermore, the Septuagint was wriiten in 3rd centrury BCE. The words and meaning had 300 yrs of rabbinical scrutiny before the NT. When you say that the gentiles cannot understand the OT because of hebrew, then surely they can understand the Septuagint in Greek. The argument that the meaning/context of the NT is based on the gentile vernacular is not plausible.

A hell bound sinner does not personally have the power to repent (stop sinning) within them, but after receiving Godly type Love and the indwelling Holy Spirit they can stop sinning. “If you Love me you will obey me”, but the Love comes first. Repentance comes after the person does what little He can do (really nothing of value), but a sinner can humbly accept pure undeserved charity (Christ) as charity, for selfish reasons.
Sin is a state one chooses to be in. The first step is to unchose. The second is to chose. There are many paths to to the state of grace. But there are no short cuts. Changing the nature of sin to get to that state of grace does not make it any easier. Sin is sin

Why do we quench the Spirit?
To make room for sin in potentiality. Striving to be the best hypocrite that we can be.

I set the seed with agnostics and atheist, but if they are happy with their life at the time it is extremely hard to make inroads. I have one example, where I was repeatedly put down/mocked by an agnostic coworker who had it “all” together, but years late driving him home from a trip (he had to much to drink) he opened up about his marital problems at the time an want a Christian perspective, we had some really good talks after that and he was open to change.
The swine became a dog and he came to the table for crumbs. The table does not go to the swine. Sounds like my story.
 
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bling

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There is the smoke of blasphemy with what you say. The Divine is the Sole Recipient of sacrifices. Man does not have the majesty nor competence to receive such things. God is not an Object which we can unilaterally force a relationship. He is a Person whom we must entreat to accept us.
We in no way deserve to be showered with unbelievable wonderful gifts, but that is exactly what God does.

God is doing or allowing all He can to help willing humans to humbly accept His undeserving charity as charity, so we do not “force” the relationship, but God is doing everything short of kidnapping us for us to join Him, Luke 14: 23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full.


Jesus willingly accepted His Role as Ransom, but it is God dictating it's process. Jesus prays after last supper - Matthew 26:39 "And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."". God sacrified the Lamb to free us from our date with death. God redeemed our the bondage of sin with the sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son.

The law was never meant as a tool for salvation - 1 Tim 1:9 "understanding the fact that law is not enacted for the righteous person [the one in right standing with God], but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers," It was enacted to protect us, both saint and sinner.
God forgiving us redeems us, frees us, and the indwelling Holy Spirit with God’s Love impowers us.

God does not do the sacrificing of the Lamb, but did allow wicked people and a willing Christ to be tortured, humiliated and murdered, which is not something God would do to the innocent.

We still die with sin both spiritually to begin with and physically (if Christ does not come soon.) God did provide the ransom which redeems us.




Then the male lamb is the paschal lamb or a holocaust - biblical. The meaning is prescribed and relatable.
My sin experience is with rod that was not spareth. A thing I try to forget ....
I cause the Messiah to go to the cross.


The NT is written in Greek. The translators and interpreters were probably Greek Jewish converts. The 12 apostles were Jews. Was their OT knowledge it up to the standard of Jesus? No but the OT was in their blood. Furthermore, the Septuagint was wriiten in 3rd centrury BCE. The words and meaning had 300 yrs of rabbinical scrutiny before the NT. When you say that the gentiles cannot understand the OT because of hebrew, then surely they can understand the Septuagint in Greek. The argument that the meaning/context of the NT is based on the gentile vernacular is not plausible.
You might want to read up on the Septuagint and first century history. There were very few scrolls around in the first century. Jews families would not even have a copy of the OT, but one would be kept in the synagogue. Gentiles would not have copies of the Greek OT at all. Scholars today have both the Hebrew and Greek copies of the OT and show lots of corruption in the Greek, but the same message can be gotten from the Greek and Jesus will quote from the Greek.


Sin is a state one chooses to be in. The first step is to unchose. The second is to chose. There are many paths to to the state of grace. But there are no short cuts. Changing the nature of sin to get to that state of grace does not make it any easier. Sin is sin
Until the unbelieving sinner is gifted with Godly type Love and the indwelling Holy Spirit, he/she cannot keep from sinning. The unbelieving sinner would not Love God, since God has him hell bound because of his selfish ways. The change come with just trusting in God’s undeserved help, to help them out of the hole they got themselves into.
 
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Clare73

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If Christ's sacrifice is everything there is about atonement, is everyone's sins atoned for and if not why not?
Clare73 said:
Salvation is the atonement applied, condemnation removed, right standing with God's justice secured, reconciliation with God finalized.

"Whoever does not believe in the name of the Son stands condemned" (John 3:18)

"Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36)
Jesus in the Bible did a great job explaining it, so I have only praise for what he said and did.
And now to NT apostolic teaching regarding its application and practice.
 
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Clare73

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The question is still: who was holding you back, who was paid, and why was the payment unbelievably huge.
The same who is paid in the death penalty and execution of a murderer: justice is paid, the authority which required it.
The ransom was paid to God's justice, the authority which required it.
Christ is not paying God, but the person is purchased for God. The person is not redeemed (set free) from death (they died spiritually already under the Law and will die physically), but from their worthless pursuit of salvation by the Law.
And the person is not redeemed from pursuit of the law. Gentiles today do not pursue the law.

The person is redeemed from the condemnation (Romans 5:18) and wrath of God (Romans 5:9)
on sin.

Where do you come up with this stuff?
 
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bling

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The same who is paid in the death penalty and execution of a murderer: justice is paid, the authority which required it.
The ransom was paid to God's justice, the authority which required it.
If the criminal does wrong, he might pay with his life, to society. Society receives the benefit of one less criminal running around. Laws and penalties are made to protect the innocent and discipline the criminal and all people.

Paul when he was Saul committed murder, but justice does not have to be “satisfied”, yet society should be satisfied.

Those that carry out the required punishment of the criminal are just doing what is commanded by God, so not to do the punishment of the guilty would condemn them.
God’s perfect justice is there to help people and not just the ones committing the crime. If no one is helped by the criminal paying for the crime then payment would not have to be made, since justice itself is not the goal.



And the person is not redeemed from pursuit of the law. Gentiles today do not pursue the law.

The person is redeemed from the condemnation (Romans 5:18) and wrath of God (Romans 5:9)
on sin.
Ro. 5:18…one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Ro. 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

OK

The child set free to enter the Kingdom and be with God was standing condemned in sin just prior.


Where do you come up with this stuff?
Studying Scripture, meditation, pray, fasting and talking with other likeminded Christians.
 
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Clare73

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If the criminal does wrong, he might pay with his life, to society. Society receives the benefit of one less criminal running around. Laws and penalties are made to protect the innocent and discipline the criminal and all people.
Because that is what justice requires to be just, to give everyone his due--the innocent their safety, which means loss of freedom and even life for the offenders.
Paul when he was Saul committed murder, but justice does not have to be “satisfied”,
And you are in a position to know what God's justice requires, contrary to what he has revealed regarding it, how?
Ro. 5:18…one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Ro. 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
For all people--of all nations, both Jew and Gentile--who believe in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice.

You need to sit under some formal instruction of the Scriptures from a person authorized to teach.
Winging it on your own is yielding some very contra-Bibical "understandings."
 
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bling

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Because that is what justice requires to be just, to give everyone his due--the innocent their safety, which means loss of freedom and even life for the offenders.
“Justice” is not a person. The “Law” is not a person.

When society puts together Laws and justice, to implement those Laws, and a person disobeys those Laws, he/she is not offending “just” or the “law”, but society which wrote the Law. He has now a debt to society to pay, for breaking society’s law.

God wrote “Laws” and the Justice to implement those Laws, by His special nation of people.

A person who breaks those “Laws” is not offending the Laws or the justice behind those Laws, but the author of those Laws is offended.

Society develops their laws to protect the innocent and to keep those who might want to take advantage of people from doing so because of the discipline or punishment in the laws.

God created beautiful, wonderful, fair/just Laws that would fully protect the innocent, create a nation of perfect God fearing and God Loving people and be a huge deterrent to doing any crime. It would keep God’s people, the selected nation of Israel, and wonderful example of what Godly people are like.

Killing or banishing the people who are rebelliously disobedient directly against God would leave a perfect nation of wonderfully obedient children, but since everyone of the people at some point in their life were rebelliously disobedient there would be no obedient children left in Israel.


And you are in a position to know what God's justice requires, contrary to what he has revealed regarding it, how?
Not sure what you are asking.

The offended party (God) can forgive people.


For all people--of all nations, both Jew and Gentile--who believe in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice.
Does God’s justice prevent God from forgiving people?


You need to sit under some formal instruction of the Scriptures from a person authorized to teach.
Winging it on your own is yielding some very contra-Bibical "understandings."
I can’t stand before God at judgement and plead: “I was just doing what some wise teacher said to do.” But I am going to be held personally responsible.

I have the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Bible who cannot be led astray, but teachers can go astray who are not for a time led by the Spirit.
 
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Clare73

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“Justice” is not a person. The “Law” is not a person.
No, law and justice are principles, which govern the practice of law and justice, just as law and sin are principles in Romans 7:21-23, which govern (the practice of) Paul's behavior.

Gravity is a principle (law) which governs the behavior of matter--what goes up must come down.

A person who breaks those laws is offending against the authority which legislated them.
Does God’s justice prevent God from forgiving people?
Without payment to satisfy his Justice, yes. That's why Jesus had to pay on the cross so we could be forgiven, through faith in him.
I can’t stand before God at judgement and plead: “I was just doing what some wise teacher said to do.” But I am going to be held personally responsible.
We are all held responsible for one thing, sin. Those who believe in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin are forgiven. However, right understanding of God's revelation affects our personal relationship with and growth in him.

And what teacher is that? God has provided teachers in the church (1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:11) because the body of Christ needs them, they aren't expected to wing it on their own.
I have the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Bible who cannot be led astray, but teachers can go astray who are not for a time led by the Spirit.
If teachers, who also have the same Bible and same indwelling Holy Spirit as you do can go astray, why can't you?

It is pride to see oneself above the provision God has ordained for the church.
 
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Chi.C

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We in no way deserve to be showered with unbelievable wonderful gifts, but that is exactly what God does.

God is doing or allowing all He can to help willing humans to humbly accept His undeserving charity as charity, so we do not “force” the relationship, but God is doing everything short of kidnapping us for us to join Him, Luke 14: 23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full.
I agree with you. But just a last word since you brought up kidnapping, why do associate "compel" with "kidnap"? There are many meanings to ἀναγκάζω. But you chose the most violent? Could it be that your interpretation is influenced by roman tradition context.

God forgiving us redeems us, frees us, and the indwelling Holy Spirit with God’s Love impowers us.

God does not do the sacrificing of the Lamb, but did allow wicked people and a willing Christ to be tortured, humiliated and murdered, which is not something God would do to the innocent.

We still die with sin both spiritually to begin with and physically (if Christ does not come soon.) God did provide the ransom which redeems us.

I cause the Messiah to go to the cross.
Our Father gave up His Only Begotten Son for His prodigal sons.

You might want to read up on the Septuagint and first century history. There were very few scrolls around in the first century. Jews families would not even have a copy of the OT, but one would be kept in the synagogue. Gentiles would not have copies of the Greek OT at all. Scholars today have both the Hebrew and Greek copies of the OT and show lots of corruption in the Greek, but the same message can be gotten from the Greek and Jesus will quote from the Greek.
The point is that there were Greek translations about in the 1st century AD. Today, if I were to clarify verses of the OT (to english), I would asked a english speaking rabbi for help or I would go to an english version of the OT. I would not ask my buddies at the pub nor would I refer to the New York Times or the National Enquirer.

Until the unbelieving sinner is gifted with Godly type Love and the indwelling Holy Spirit, he/she cannot keep from sinning. The unbelieving sinner would not Love God, since God has him hell bound because of his selfish ways. The change come with just trusting in God’s undeserved help, to help them out of the hole they got themselves into.
The Scriptures is not bait, that one can scent with this and that odour pleasing to the nose of the hellbound sinner. It is a map to the reward of everlasting life. God's help was and is always there, the onus is on the sinner to chose.
 
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bling

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No, law and justice are principles, which govern the practice of law and justice, just as law and sin are principles in Romans 7:21-23, which govern (the practice of) Paul's behavior.

Laws and Justice are not some cosmic “principles”, There is no “principle” established out there which says: “Picking up sticks on the Sabbath is punishable by death”. It does not matter that the elders judging a person who picked up sticks do not think it is fair to have him stoned to death, they must have him stoned immediately (they have to keep from offending God.)

The “law” about picking up sticks on the Sabbath was done away with, but if it were a “principle” it should not be changed.

God makes the rules: The reason picking up sticks on the Sabbath is punishable by death is because it is God’s Law and He has the authority.

Breaking any of God’s Laws is an offence to God and really everything else is insignificant.

Laws themselves do not control people’s behavior, but keeping from offending the author(s) of the Law and avoiding the punishment, can control people’s behavior.


Gravity is a principle (law) which governs the behavior of matter--what goes up must come down.
Like I just pointed out some “Laws”, like picking up sticks on the sabbath, are not unchangeable like gravity, you cannot break the “Law” of gravity, but you can break God’s Laws. You can try all you want to break the Law of gravity it will not offend God or be punished, but breaking God’s Laws which you can physically do offends God.


A person who breaks those laws is offending against the authority which legislated them.


A person who breaks those laws is offending against the authority which legislated them.
Without payment to satisfy his Justice, yes. That's why Jesus had to pay on the cross so we could be forgiven, through faith in him.
Forgiving the person is part of God’s justice and is the way of avoiding being punished. God does not need help from anyone or anything for Him to be able to forgive.

Yes, you can pay the fine to fulfill the requirements of justice, but you can also be forgiven of the crime if that is within the Judge’s authority. Requiring that both must happen is not part of justice and is not found anywhere, yet some say it is part of the atonement process for sin. Rebelliously breaking God’s Law there is a huge offense against God that cannot be “paid” by any means, but it can be forgiven by God.

If Christ paid for us, we would owe Christ and if Christ forgave us then would His Love be greater then God who could not forgive without a payment?


We are all held responsible for one thing, sin. Those who believe in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin are forgiven. However, right understanding of God's revelation affects our personal relationship with and growth in him.
And what teacher is that? God has provided teachers in the church (1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:11) because the body of Christ needs them, they aren't expected to wing it on their own.
If teachers, who also have the same Bible and same indwelling Holy Spirit as you do can go astray, why can't you?

It is pride to see oneself above the provision God has ordained for the church.
The early Church did not have the New Testament, so they would count on those with the gift of prophecy, but like the Bereans they would still check out for themselves to be sure what was being said was consistent with the Old Testament.

Yes! I know I can, and have in the past, quenched the Spirit, so I also know others can quench the Spirit. When I quench the Spirit and go it alone, I spiral down to ever increasing sinning, but this awakens me to repentance, allowing the Spirit to guide me. I can always look back to when I quench the Spirit, but I can also look back to when the Spirit was really with me (yet, not always easy to tell at the time.)

I do not know of any individual by name who has been “ordained by God” in the present time, so do you know one?

The problem I have had with commentaries or doctrinal books, is dead authors cannot address my questions about what they wrote and living authors do not address my emails even when I really try to be gentle with them.
 
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bling

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I agree with you. But just a last word since you brought up kidnapping, why do associate "compel" with "kidnap"? There are many meanings to ἀναγκάζω. But you chose the most violent? Could it be that your interpretation is influenced by roman tradition context.
ἀναγκάζω is not conveying the idea of being kidnapped in the Banquet Parables. Kidnapping is a criminal activity.


Our Father gave up His Only Begotten Son for His prodigal sons.
The torture, humiliation and murder of God’s son is not found in the prodigal son parable and happened after the prodigal son story was given.

What we do see is: God/Father allowing, aiding and not recuing the son from being severely disciplined for his rebellious disobedience. The son got himself into the very worst imaginable situation (dead), yet he was still alive physically.

The Father is always Loving the son and willing and wanting to forgive the son, but the son has to reach the point of being willing to accept undeserved pure charity/Love as charity, so the son will Love like the father, since “he that is forgiven much Loves much”. Is this the way God treats us?


The point is that there were Greek translations about in the 1st century AD. Today, if I were to clarify verses of the OT (to english), I would asked a english speaking rabbi for help or I would go to an english version of the OT. I would not ask my buddies at the pub nor would I refer to the New York Times or the National Enquirer.
The Rabbi would know Hebrew and not Greek.


The Scriptures is not bait, that one can scent with this and that odour pleasing to the nose of the hellbound sinner. It is a map to the reward of everlasting life. God's help was and is always there, the onus is on the sinner to chose.
The New Testament was sent out to Christians to support their effort. Nonbelievers come up with some weird ideas if they read it on their own without help (I do Friendspeak and Bible classes with small groups of Communist Chinese students), I get some very interesting responses when I ask: “What did it say to you?” Some students have gone from red to pink to white over time.

I am not trying to present a book to them, but Christ. I am not seeing a “map” in Scripture, but Christ/Love/God is all through it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Ransom? How do we understand this, that Christ gave his life as a ransom? A ransom is a price someone pays to the kidnappers, for them to let go of the captives.

The Greek word used is: Lütron

"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
— Matthew 20:28


Maybe some of you got a bigger insight?

Christ love!

The cruel tyranny of the devil was exercised over men and the world by the power of death (Hebrews 2:14), by His death our Lord suffered and tasted the death of every man (Hebrews 2:9); and by dying He gave Himself over in death, as the ransom for many (Mark 10:45). In dying the Lord gave Himself as a fellow victim, indeed becoming the Victim of Victims, the greatest victim. Our Lord descended into the place of the dead proclaiming His victory to those imprisoned (1 Peter 3:19-20), binding the strong man and despoiling his home (Mark 3:27). setting to ruin the devil's domain (John 16:11, Colossians 1:13) and rising glorious from the dead as Lord and Victor (Revelation 1:18).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Clare73

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Laws and Justice are not some cosmic “principles”, There is no “principle” established out there which says: “Picking up sticks on the Sabbath is punishable by death”.
You could use a good dictionary
 
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Chi.C

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ἀναγκάζω is not conveying the idea of being kidnapped in the Banquet Parables. Kidnapping is a criminal activity.
I agree. God and His organization does not kidnap.

The torture, humiliation and murder of God’s son is not found in the prodigal son parable and happened after the prodigal son story was given.

What we do see is: God/Father allowing, aiding and not recuing the son from being severely disciplined for his rebellious disobedience. The son got himself into the very worst imaginable situation (dead), yet he was still alive physically.

The Father is always Loving the son and willing and wanting to forgive the son, but the son has to reach the point of being willing to accept undeserved pure charity/Love as charity, so the son will Love like the father, since “he that is forgiven much Loves much”. Is this the way God treats us?
Yes. Father loves all his children. God loves the wasteful ones so much that He placed His First Born Who Pleaseth Him well in harm's way.
The prodigal son hit rock bottom by his own and returned to family. The family did not solicit his return with sweet promises.

The Rabbi would know Hebrew and not Greek.
To have written the Septuagint, scribes and rabbis need to speak greek as well as hebrew/aramaic.

The New Testament was sent out to Christians to support their effort. Nonbelievers come up with some weird ideas if they read it on their own without help (I do Friendspeak and Bible classes with small groups of Communist Chinese students), I get some very interesting responses when I ask: “What did it say to you?” Some students have gone from red to pink to white over time.

I am not trying to present a book to them, but Christ. I am not seeing a “map” in Scripture, but Christ/Love/God is all through it.
It is commendable you do so. Friendspeak is based on Church of Christ?
 
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