Christ and Satan once Brothers.................

[Anthony]

Lightbearer?

What point are you trying to make? That Jesus and satan has some sort of relationship?


What is the big picture here, what are you trying to say?

 

[LightBearer]

Simply answering the title of the post, that Satan and Jesus were once brothers as fellow sons of God, nothing more than that. Of course since Satans rebellion he no longer is a son of God and no longer has any brotherly relationship with Jesus.

 

[fieldsofwind]

Where do you get your assumption that Christ was always the "Son"? Read through Hebrews (the first chapter).

Christ is God who separated Himself from His glory to become nothing... to become subservient. This is why you see Christ as you do in the NT... separate but still in very nature the same. However, Hebrews describes the Father as speaking of Christ and calling Him (Christ) God. He says "today I have become your Father." Did God ever call satan God... or say that He created all things? Nope. In the "beginning" Christ and the Father were not separate... God was God. But, God through His love separated Himself from God in His glory and became flesh (John 1). God who remained in glory, not being able to become sin, is the Father.

Read through the threads on that subject for a more thorough explanation... or better yet... just ask Him.

Take care

FOW

 

[LightBearer]

Originally posted by fieldsofwind
Where do you get your assumption that Christ was always the "Son"? Read through Hebrews (the first chapter).

Christ is God who separated Himself from His glory to become nothing... to become subservient. This is why you see Christ as you do in the NT... separate but still in very nature the same. However, Hebrews describes the Father as speaking of Christ and calling Him (Christ) God. He says "today I have become your Father." Did God ever call satan God... or say that He created all things? Nope. In the "beginning" Christ and the Father were not separate... God was God. But, God through His love separated Himself from God in His glory and became flesh (John 1). God who remained in glory, not being able to become sin, is the Father.

Read through the threads on that subject for a more thorough explanation... or better yet... just ask Him.

Take care

FOW

2 Corinthians 4:4 "among whom the god (Satan) of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through".

Since Paul wrote this under inspiration from God then God is in fact making and agreeing this statement.

Originally posted by fieldsofwind
Where do you get your assumption that Christ was always the "Son"? Read through Hebrews (the first chapter).

Are you saying that Jesus was not the Son of God before he came to the earth?

And if he was then when did he become the Son?

 

[HazyRigby]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
To capitalize "lucifer" and lower-case "God", is severe blasphemy. (But, of course, so is naming a kid-witch, "POTTER"---GOD is THE Potter...

Now I've heard everything.

 

[HazyRigby]

Whoops. Didn't know I wasn't supposed to post in here. Feel free to delete these posts.

 

[Warrior FC]

In the begininng God said "let there be light"... The light was JESUS!

Later, in chapter 2 of genesis God created the other lights ( the ones in the sky)....

 

[Jedi]

I believe we've already discussed how Jesus is God in the flesh (Colossians 2:9) in a previous topic. For you, Lightbearer, to keep holding on to a refutted position is nonsensical. Since Jesus is God, and there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10), Lucifer is not the brother of Christ (which would've made two gods).

I find it absolutely absurd, and perhaps blasphemous, to put Satan on the same level as Christ by saying they're brothers. Jesus is a brother of man, because he came down as a man through the process of birth (thus entering the "brotherhood" of human kind). There's no evidence, and in fact there is contrary evidence (Jesus being God, and God being God from "everlasting to everlasting" - Psalm 90:2), to Jesus being an angel, which means Jesus was never on the same level as Satan. They are not brothers.

 

[LightBearer]

I said they were not are brothers.


I for one can see why some like youself object to identifying Jesus with for example the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures. For Trinitarians, of course, such an identification poses a problem since it shows conclusively that he is not equal to Jehovah God. But even some who do not accept the Trinity doctrine feel that Jesus' identity with an angel somehow detracts from his dignity.

Remember, though, that the basic meaning of "angel" (Hebrew, mal·'akh'; Greek, ag'ge·los) is "messenger." As the "Word" (Greek, lo'gos), Jesus is God's messenger par excellence.  Remember, too, that as the archangel (God's Word mentions only one archangel, and it speaks of that angel in reference to the resurrected Lord Jesus: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet," as well as "the firstborn of all creation," Jesus had the highest rank among the angels even before he came to earth. Colossians 1:15.  

True, the apostle Paul wrote to the Hebrews: "He [Jesus] has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." (Hebrews 1:4; Philippians 2:9, 10) However, this describes his situation after his having been here on earth. He was still the archangel and "the beginning of the creation by God." (Revelation 3:14) But he became better than the angels. The 'more excellent name' or position is something he did not possess before coming to earth. (These scriptures contradict the Trinitarian concept that the Son is and always has been equal in every way to the Father.)

 

[Jedi]

I said they were not are brothers.

What? It’s either one or the other: “they were not brothers,” or “they are brothers.” Seems like that’s both statements smashed into one.

I for one cannot see why some like youself[sic] object to identifying Jesus with for example the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures.

The “angel of the Lord” appears to be a form God took for the sake of men before the actual bodily incarnation of Christ.

For Trinitarians, of course, such an identification poses a problem since it shows conclusively that he is not equal to Jehovah God.

I beg to differ. To appear as something is not the same as actually being that thing.

Remember, though, that the basic meaning of "angel" (Hebrew, mal·'akh'; Greek, ag'ge·los) is "messenger." As the "Word" (Greek, lo'gos), Jesus is God's messenger par excellence. Remember, too, that as the archangel (God's Word mentions only one archangel, and it speaks of that angel in reference to the resurrected Lord Jesus: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet," as well as "the firstborn of all creation," Jesus had the highest rank among the angels even before he came to earth. Colossians 1:15.

He had the highest rank, because he was their Creator (In fact, Christ is called “the author of life” in Acts 3:15). Kinda makes sense that the Creator of life outranks the life created.

True, the apostle Paul wrote to the Hebrews: "He [Jesus] has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." (Hebrews 1:4; Philippians 2:9, 10)

In that form, my good man. God made himself “less glorious” if you will, by becoming human, yet through the entire ordeal of the cross, even in that form, His glory is more than that of the angels.

However, this describes his situation after his having been here on earth. He was still the archangel and "the beginning of the creation by God." (Revelation 3:14)

That’s because Christ was the primary agent in creating (John 1:2, Colossians 1:16) and sustaining (Colossians 1:17) the universe.

The 'more excellent name' or position is something he did not possess before coming to earth. (These scriptures contradict the Trinitarian concept that the Son is and always has been equal in every way to the Father.)

And now we’re going to throw up straw men? I don’t think so. God in the form of the Son isn’t as Glorious as God in his fullest glory and splendor (cf. John 14:28). God limiting himself by coming down into human form (Colossians 2:9) isn’t as glorious as God in his fullest form.

 

[LightBearer]

Originally posted by Jedi
What? It's either one or the other: "they were not brothers," or "they are brothers." Seems like that's both statements smashed into one.

Lightbearers answer.

Originally posted by LightBearer from post #22
Simply answering the title of the post, that Satan and Jesus were once brothers as fellow sons of God, nothing more than that. Of course since Satans rebellion he no longer is a son of God and no longer has any brotherly relationship with Jesus.

Originally posted by Jedi

He had the highest rank, because he was their Creator (In fact, Christ is called "the author of life" in Acts 3:15). Kinda makes sense that the Creator of life outranks the life created.

The proper rendering of the scripture is. "Whereas YOU killed the Chief Agent of life" Acts 3:15

Of which you agree in your statement below.

Originally posted by Jedi

That's because Christ was the primary agent in creating (John 1:2, Colossians 1:16) and sustaining (Colossians 1:17) the universe.

Therefore out of your own mouth, an agent of the creator and not the creator himself.

 

[Jedi]

Lightbearers answer.

And so they're still brothers, but Satan's just the outcast of the family.

The proper rendering of the scripture is. "Whereas YOU killed the Chief Agent of life" Acts 3:15

Um, no. Read the Greek, please. It specifically says "author of life."

Of which you agree in your statement below... Therefore out of your own mouth, an agent of the creator and not the creator himself.

The creator of something is always the primary agent. That should be pretty obvious.

 

[LightBearer]

Originally posted by Jedi
And so they're still brothers, but Satan's just the outcast of the family.

Just as Adam ceased to be an earthly Son of God by losing his sonship after his rebellion along with all his offspring. So too did Satan cease to be an angelic Son of God and lost his Sonship after his rebellion. 

Originally posted by Jedi
Um, no. Read the Greek, please. It specifically says "author of life."

Actually the Greek word used is Archegos, which according to Vines Expository Dicionary of Greek words at Acts 3:15 means "Prince" or "Chief Leader".

Originally posted by Jedi
The creator of something is always the primary agent. That should be pretty obvious.

Oxford English Dictionary states.  Agent = A person who acts on behalf of another.

From all this it is clear that Jesus was God's chief agent of life.  Therefor in the context of Act 3:15 He being the Prince and therefore second in prominence but not the author of it.  That would be the creator, Jehovah the King of Eternity, his Father.  


In essence then how is Jesus the Chief agent of Life.  As an expression of his Father's undeserved kindness, Christ Jesus laid down his perfect human life in sacrifice. This made possible the union of Christ's chosen followers with him in his heavenly reign and also made possible the arrangement for earthly subjects of his Kingdom rule. (Mt 6:10; Joh 3:16; Eph 1:7; Heb 2:5.) He thereby became "the Chief Agent ["Prince," KJ; JB] of life" for all mankind. (Ac 3:15) The Greek term here used means, basically, "chief leader," a related word being applied to Moses (Ac 7:27, 35) as "ruler" in Israel.

Hence, as the "chief leader" or "pioneer of Life" (Mo), Jesus Christ introduced a new and essential element for gaining eternal life in the sense of being an intermediary or go-between, but he is such in an administrative sense as well. He is God's High Priest who can effect full cleansing from sin and liberation from sin's death-dealing effects (Heb 3:1, 2; 4:14; 7:23-25; 8:1-3); he is the appointed Judge into whose hands all judgment is committed, so that he judiciously administers his ransom benefits to individuals among mankind according to their worthiness to live under his kingship (Joh 5:22-27; Ac 10:42, 43); through him the resurrection of the dead also comes. (Joh 5:28, 29; 6:39, 40) Because Jehovah God so ordained to use his Son, "there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved." Ac 4:12; compare 1Jo 5:11-13.

Since this aspect of Jesus' authority is also embraced in his "name," his disciples, as representatives of the Chief Agent of life, by that name could heal persons of their infirmities resulting from inherited sin and they could even raise the dead. Ac 3:6, 15, 16; 4:7-11; 9:36-41; 20:7-12.

 

[Jedi]

Just as Adam ceased to be an earthly Son of God by losing his sonship after his rebellion along with all his offspring. So too did Satan cease to be an angelic Son of God and lost his Sonship after his rebellion.

"Son" in the sense of a follower, yes, but not in the sense of actual relationships.

Actually the Greek word used is Archegos, which according to Vines Expository Dicionary[sic] of Greek words at Acts 3:15 means "Prince" or "Chief Leader".

And the Interlinear NASB-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek and English says it means "author." Not only that, but the Greek word I'm looking at in Acts 3:15 looks a lot more like "apxnyov."

Oxford English Dictionary states. Agent = A person who acts on behalf of another.

Funny. Webster puts it as: "One that acts or exerts power," or "something that produces or is capable of producing an effect" (Webster.com).

As far as the deity of Christ goes, we've already been through this very thoroughly. Hebrews 1:8, and Isaiah 9:6 clearly call Jesus "God," Jude 1:4 calls him our "only Master and Lord," which supports the conclusion that Jesus is, indeed, God in the flesh (Colossians 2:9). Enough of this "Jesus isn't God" nonsense.

 

[Ben johnson]

However, this describes his situation after his having been here on earth. He was still the archangel and "the beginning of the creation by God." (Revelation 3:14)


That’s because Christ was the primary agent in creating (John 1:2, Colossians 1:16) and sustaining (Colossians 1:17) the universe.

My NASV Bible has, footnote to Rev3:14 ("Arche"), "I. E., origin or source"

Very good reference from Col1. Jehovah's Witnesses confuse "FIRSTBORN" in Col1:15, ("firstborn of all creation"), thinking it means "BORN FIRST"---but it really means "rank, title, PRE-EMMINENCE". So too in Col1:18, meaning He has PRE-EMINENCE (authority) even over death.

Jacob and Esau is an example at how the BORN-SECOND became the FIRSTBORN. So too Ephraim and Manessah.

There is no contradicting that Jesus is THE WORD in John1. This presents an unarguable problem for those who claim that Jesus was a CREATED BEING.

"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him came nothing into being that has come into being." Vs3.

You can check Greek sources to verify that it does NOT say, "all OTHER things came into being, apart from Him came nothing ELSE that as come into being" (these corruptions were necessary for those who cling to "JESUS-WAS-CREATED").

Nothing that was created, came into being apart from Jesus. Jesus was not created...

 

[EPHRIAM777]

Originally posted by Hector Medina
I heard of this somewhere.......

Who believes it and why???


In Christ,

Hector


Eph writes...

I believe that is MORMON theology...!

It is wrong..

The Bible says...Lucifer ( his name before he fell )...was created perfect and beautiful...until he rebelled..! SEE EZK 28:13:15....this "king" isn't a human king..but the real "ruler" behind the prince mentioned in this chapter...! No human king was alive in Ezk's day that lived in Eden..!

Jesus is not a "created" being he is devine...Satan is a created being...therefore they can't be brothers...!

 

[Katya]

The theology is wrong or it's not mormon theology?

Have to be absolutely sure I've read you right.

 

[mellymell]

LightBearer,

Jesus and Lucifer are not and never were brothers. Please continue reading and I'll prove it.

Jesus and the Father (Jehovah) are One. They are not just One in power, but One in essence... Yet they are distinct in person, in function, in "ministry". When people said that Jesus was the chief agent in creation, they weren't referring to Him as God's hired help. The truth is that Jesus WAS the chief empower (if you will) in creation because St. John 1:3 clearly states that "all things were made by Him." But, we know that God the Father had a role in creation... for He SAID, and then He SAW. But, understanding their triune nature, you can understand that the two are ONE and so Jesus is Jehovah.

The distinction comes in when you refer to the ministry of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Remember that Isaiah 9:6 says: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given..." The child (the human baby, the man-nature of the Christ) was born, but the Son ALWAYS existed, hence He was given.

Now, you claimed earlier that He was the first thing created. But, John 1:3 is CLEAR to state the ALL things were made by Him, Jesus. ALL means all. Since we know that He can't make Himself, then He must not be a "made" thing. He has always existed because He is God.

Now, as it relates to Lucifer, the sonship of the angels is totally different than the sonship of the Son, Jesus. I've already showed that Jesus IS Jehovah. So, that proves that in His divinity, Jesus is NOT Lucifer's brother, but His God and Creator. But, let's examine Jesus in His humanity.

Question: are humans and angels brothers? NO. The angels are not referred to as sons of God meaning that they are begotten of Him... but that they are subservient to Him. So, in the idea that we all SERVE the Lord, there is a "brotherhood" because of the commonality... But, we are not brothers by nature. And so Jesus, in His humanity, is not a brother to Lucifer either. Scripture refers to sons of God because they are servants of God, not just because they were created by God. If that were the case, sinners would be considered sons of God, but they aren't. So, again that shows that the sonship comes from service, which fosters a brotherhood, but doesn't make us BROTHERS.

 

[lared]

I think a major problem here is overlooking Jesus' request at John 17:3:

John 17:3--"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Most have become acquainted with Jesus Christ, but have not yet come to know the other person......"the only true God".

Do you not see that in this request, that we come to know two persons? The only true God, and then Jesus Christ as well.

Once one comes to know them, then they are able to distinquish the two.

And one of the first things we learn about another person, whether it is one's teacher, or boss.....is their name.

Jehovah is the common modern day English name for Jesus' heavenly Father, which most English Bibles tend to hide (though not all) and thus causes mass confusion as to who is who. An example of this is found at Psalm 110:1:

Psalm 110:1: "The LORD said to my Lord, 'You shall sit at my right han when I make your enemies the footstool under your feet.'"

Jesus was well aware of who he often talked to in prayer, and requested that we come to know him (the only true God) as well.

 

[mellymell]

Originally posted by lared
I think a major problem here is overlooking Jesus' request at John 17:3:

John 17:3--"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Most have become acquainted with Jesus Christ, but have not yet come to know the other person......"the only true God". 

You have got to understand that there is a difference bettewen knowing God and knowing the Father and the Son. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all make up ONE God. There is no separation of essence and nature. The three are one, inseparably. So, there is no difference in GOD. But, there IS a distinction between the ministry of God. He's manifested in 3 PERSONS (don't ask me how, He's just God and can do what He chooses), the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Neither is any less or any more God than the other, but yet they each function (minister) distinctly...

You are misunderstanding Jesus in John 17:3. Jesus, in His human incarnation, was the Son of God, the One whom the FATHER had sent to redeem mankind back unto Himself. But again, it was the distinct person of the FATHER who sent the SON. But remember, they are still both all ONE GOD. That's why scripture makes it clear that we serve ONE God, and Jesus confirmed this in John 17:3: "...that they might know thee the only true God." That was not Jesus the divine representing a different God. That was Jesus the SON speaking of the Divine... and remember that while He was here, He had stepped OUT OF THE DIVINE in order to become a man to redeem us back to God (Phillipians 2:5-8). So, while here, He was right to make a distinction of person, but that didn't make Him any less God.

Hope that helps you understand the distinction. Jehovah, Jesus, and the Paraclete are ALL ONE GOD THE SAME. But, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (which speaks of His Persons-His disctinct ministering manifestations) are the three. This is what makes up the 3-in-1. Three persons in ONE TRUE GOD.