Christ’s Sacrifice was His alone and ONCE offered

[simonthezealot]

“ ...Jesus said, ‘It is finished:...’” John. 19:30

“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” Hebrews 10:12

“...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” Hebrews. 1:3

 

[Arcangl86]

I have a feeling i know what you are saying, but for clarity's sake, what are you trying to say and/or debate?

 

[simonthezealot]

There is NO continued sacrifice (re-sacrifice) at the altar.
It was one time for always and finished.

 

[Arcangl86]

Different kind of sacrifice.

 

[simonthezealot]

How so? Catholics for example say it is one in the same. I don't recall from my LCMS days their view.

 

[Standing Up]

“ ...Jesus said, ‘It is finished:...’” John. 19:30

“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” Hebrews 10:12

“...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” Hebrews. 1:3

There's definitely a problem for a priest offering someone else's blood ...

 

[Arcangl86]

I'm going to let somebody who is with the Roman or Eastern Churches answer that, since I'm not clear on all the nuances.My understanding of the Lutheran position is this. There are two kinds of offering, propitiatory and eucharistic. The first is a sacrifice made for the forgiveness of sin. That is the sacrifice made by God for us upon the cross. The eucharistic sacrifice is a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, and it is that sacrifice we offer every Sunday, or whenever the Mass is celebrated. Or to put it in other terms, Christ offered his sacrifice so that we ay be forgiven, and we sacrifice because we have been forgiven. If you wish, I can dig up the scripture used to explain this in the Apology.

 

[Albion]

I'm going to let somebody who is with the Roman or Eastern Churches answer that, since I'm not clear on all the nuances.My understanding of the Lutheran position is this. There are two kinds of offering, propitiatory and eucharistic. The first is a sacrifice made for the forgiveness of sin. That is the sacrifice made by God for us upon the cross. The eucharistic sacrifice is a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, and it is that sacrifice we offer every Sunday

That is correct--as an exposition of the Lutheran and/or Anglican view of the Lord's Supper.

It is not the Catholic view, however, which is the topic we were discussing.

While not discounting the idea of the worshipper offering his thanksgiving and praise, the Roman Catholic view is that the sacrifice of the Cross is re-enacted at Mass. Sensitive to the criticism that this is a re-sacrificing of Christ, the usual terminology these days has become "re-presentation of the 'timeless' sacrifice of Christ" on Calvary, but many consider that to mean the same thing, in effect.

 

[Rajni]

There is NO continued sacrifice (re-sacrifice) at the altar.
It was one time for always and finished.

I agree.

However, if I understand the Catholic view of it correctly, it's along the
lines of this (and Catholics please correct me if I'm wrong on this):

Since time is said to be an illusion, all the world's events are therefore
happening simultaneously, right?

In which case, it could be said that every Mass is occurring in tandem
with—or as a part of—Jesus's death on the cross. The Mass is like an
extension of that singular event, like the beams of light shooting out
of a single laser-grid projector, or like sparks shooting out of one
firework explosion, if you will.

It just appears to us like it's being done over and over ad nauseam
because we see time linearly. But all the Masses that have
been/are/will be technically happen on that one day when Jesus died
on the cross.

Another example might be that of a sound's echo. An echo isn't really a
bunch of sounds being repeated again and again, but rather a single
sound-wave traveling over time and space. If one could move fast
enough to stay ahead of the sound-wave, one could probably hear it
over and over again the further along they went, but in the end it's not
multiple sounds, just a single one traveling outward from a single
source.




-
-

 

[Albion]

I agree.

However, if I understand the Catholic view of it correctly, it's along the
lines of this (and Catholics please correct me if I'm wrong on this):

Since time is said to be an illusion, all the world's events are therefore
happening simultaneously, right?

In which case, it could be said that every Mass is occurring in tandem
with—or as a part of—Jesus's death on the cross. The Mass is like an
extension of that singular event, like the beams of light shooting out
of a single laser-grid projector, or like sparks shooting out of one
firework explosion, if you will.

It just appears to us like it's being done over and over ad nauseam
because we see time linearly. But all the Masses that have
been/are/will be technically happen on that one day when Jesus died
on the cross.

That would be close to the thinking, yes. The question then becomes, "Do you believe that?" Is it at all credible? This would make Adam and Eve's fall in the garden NOT occur before they were driven out of the garden, the Red Sea parted at the same time as the Israelites were held in bondage in Egypt and also were, simultaneously, also wandering in the Sinai desert, etc.

Another example might be that of a sound's echo. An echo isn't really a bunch of sounds being repeated again and again, but rather a single
sound-wave traveling over time and space.

That may be, but if the echo did not occur later in time than the original sound, it could not be an echo.

So that analogy refutes your premise that everything can be happening simultaneously.

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

“ ...Jesus said, ‘It is finished:...’” John. 19:30

“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” Hebrews 10:12

“...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” Hebrews. 1:3

I love this passage.

In verse 10, it is declared that the sacrifice for sins is Jesus Christ Himself in the flesh. That is occurred one time and it is forever.

In verse 11, it declares that all priests who offer any sacrifice for sins does nothing to save anyone from a single sin.

In verse 12, shows that Jesus Christ offered one sacrifice for sins when He was crucified.

in verse 13, it is clear that those that believe are perfected forever, that is, saved forever.

Hebrews 10:5-14
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


11 And every priest

standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices,

which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[Cappadocious]

"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints."

-Colossians 1

 

[BobRyan]

“ ...Jesus said, ‘It is finished:...’” John. 19:30

“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” Hebrews 10:12

“...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” Hebrews. 1:3

Ok but then that means no "confecting the body and blood of Christ" in the Catholic Mass.

Are you ok with that?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Albion]

Ok but then that means no "confecting the body and blood of Christ" in the Catholic Mass.

Are you ok with that?

Are the two ideas necessarily connected?

 

[BobRyan]

“ ...Jesus said, ‘It is finished:...’” John. 19:30

“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” Hebrews 10:12

“...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” Hebrews. 1:3

Ok but then that means no "confecting the body and blood of Christ" in the Catholic Mass.

Are you ok with that?

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Are the two ideas necessarily connected?

One sacrifice - finished, ended - and he sat down. He is now seated at the right hand of the Father - no longer the "Lamb of God" no longer "bearing sins of the world" but now as high priest in the Heavenly sanctuary and seated at the right hand of the Father.

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

[Wordkeeper]

Also 2 Corinthians 5:21

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Wright and White on the “righteousness of God” in 2 Corinthians 5:21 | P.OST

Quote
The apostles are in a position to perform this task because they are in Christ, through whom “God was reconciling the world to himself” (5:19). Jesus became sin—he was crucified as an enemy of Israel and of YHWH, a blasphemer, a false claimant to the throne of Israel. But that led, paradoxically, to real enemies of God such as Paul becoming the “righteousness of God”, the means by which YHWH is justified. As Wright says in the podcast, the apostles embody the covenant faithfulness of God in their ministry.

In effect, what Paul is claiming is that the apostles are right, they embody the rightness of God, they are justified in making this appeal, because they are in Christ, as is clearly evidenced by their suffering (6:4-10)—they carry in their bodies the dying of Jesus (4:10). This is not an abstract argument about the imputation of righteousness through faith. It is a practical argument: the apostles make their appeal on the ground that they are acting out the role of Christ-like servants, who commend themselves by accepting, as Jesus accepted, hardships, persecution, distrust, abuse, and punishment.

"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints."

-Colossians 1

 

[MoreCoffee]

There is NO continued sacrifice (re-sacrifice) at the altar. It was one time for always and finished.

Christ's blood is offered in heaven in the sanctuary there and heaven is not in time but in eternity hence his sacrifice suffices for all time even though he died on Earth on a specific day in a specific place.

According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified by these rites, but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf. Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own; if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice. Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him. (Hebrews 9:22-28)​

 

[timewerx]

“ ...Jesus said, ‘It is finished:...’” John. 19:30

“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” Hebrews 10:12

“...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” Hebrews. 1:3

Two ways it is interpreted.

-The popular one - essentially a free ticket to salvation.

-The unpopular one - exposing the sins/evils of the orthodoxy (Pharisee then) is a deadly business. I think we all know, whistle-blowing is a deadly affair. anyone with Unorthodox ideas tend to be heavily persecuted back in the days

It would indeed take a sacrifice of life to expose the evils/sins of its day so that people may realize they are sins and they may repent of those sins.



And the greatness of what Jesus did so any who might hear might repent and be saved echoed through the ages (forever)



..

 

[concretecamper]

The RCC teaching is that during Mass, Christ's sacrifice is made present for the whole body of Christ. We, along with the angels and the saints, are present at the last supper, we are present at the crucifixion, we are present at the resurrection. I am almost sure that the EO hold this same view of the Mass (or Sacred liturgy). Strong faith is required.

Christ is not re-sacrificed. His sacrifice was "once and for all".

 

[Albion]

The RCC teaching is that during Mass, Christ's sacrifice is made present for the whole body of Christ. We, along with the angels and the saints, are present at the last supper, we are present at the crucifixion, we are present at the resurrection. I am almost sure that the EO hold this same view of the Mass (or Sacred liturgy). Strong faith is required.

Christ is not re-sacrificed. His sacrifice was "once and for all".

If that were truly the belief, each Mass would not be seen by the RCC to rescue souls from Purgatory or accomplish other such objectives. That is what a sacrifice does.

Since the sacrifice of the Cross is--as you said--finished, each Mass could not earn new spiritual rewards by means of sacrificing a victim if it were merely a re-presenting of Christ's sacrifice that was completed 2000 years ago.