China won, USA lost

[helmut]

Also, I think it's interesting how the *only* people opposed to increased American production are non-Americans.

As to me, I am not against America to produce more energy-saving things. I only object to more climate change, or productions that will cause (mainly American!) lives.

Lower standards in environmental protection means lesser jobs in "green technology". This is not the same as "less production".

 

[helmut]

People like Warner Herzog

Never heard of him, or do you mean Werner Herzog?

 

[helmut]

I would rather be more worried that Tesla can’t sell their cars in all of the states because lobbyists have bought the politicians because car sales industry can’t compete with Tesla.

Don't worry, Tesla will sell many cars, they are going to build a car plant in Germany.

Oh, I just found out the GOP (Trump?) did something goof for Germany. Surprise!

 

[helmut]

It's called the American System

American System (economic plan) - Wikipedia

Tariffs are meant to protect weak economies from the competition with strong ones. They allowd, e.g. Germany to build an own industry that eventually could compete with England (and then the "Made in Germany" mark was invented ...).

When the "american system" was devised, the USA had a weak economy, and needed tariffs to be protected against Europe. But does this make sense by now?

A strong economy will be hampered by "protectionism", ask the Japanese if you want to know more about that.

It is interesting that at almost precisely the same time China stopped to propagate protectionism, but rather preferred free international trade, the USA wanted more protectionism. Which means (if both moves are rational) that the USA are now economically weaker than China.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Never heard of him, or do you mean Werner Herzog?

If I went through all your posts and checked your grammar, it would be nearly every post. Most frequently, you seem to struggle with distinguishing between plural and singular words, often not using an "s" when you should. Also, I see the use of "are" instead of "is"...
Example:

Which means (if both moves are rational) that the USA are now economically weaker than China.

...This all results in your posts coming off as something Borat would say.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Tariffs are meant to protect weak economies from the competition with strong ones. They allowd, e.g. Germany to build an own industry that eventually could compete with England (and then the "Made in Germany" mark was invented ...).

When the "american system" was devised, the USA had a weak economy, and needed tariffs to be protected against Europe. But does this make sense by now?

A strong economy will be hampered by "protectionism", ask the Japanese if you want to know more about that.

It is interesting that at almost precisely the same time China stopped to propagate protectionism, but rather preferred free international trade, the USA wanted more protectionism. Which means (if both moves are rational) that the USA are now economically weaker than China.

China has a poverty rate of 1.7%

United States has a poverty rate of 10.5%

The dramatic progress in reducing poverty over the past three decades in China is well known. According to the World Bank, more than 850 million Chinese people have been lifted out of extreme poverty; China's poverty rate fell from 88 percent in 1981 to 0.7 percent in 2015
Poverty in China - Wikipedia

...This tells me that outsourcing American jobs has helped China *big time*, and has not helped America.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Would you agree that the West gave low-income manufacturing jobs to Asians while concentrating high-income technology and financing jobs, here. This way, we didn't lose at all but rather got them to work for us.

But of course, Asia is now getting into technology and financing and this is the real problem with something like the trade agreement that this thread is about (OP).

Although high-end manufacturing needs to continue in the West (like Biden advocates), Those who defend traditional manufacturing jobs in general are dinosaurs not aware of the ongoing 4th industrial revolution. They would like to return to a nostalgic past but find it too difficult to even read product labels before buying them.

The mention of a 4th industrial revolution was refreshing. It's too bad it ended there.

 

[helmut]

If I went through all your posts and checked your grammar, it would be nearly every post.

English is not my mother tongue, so every hint where I made a mistake is welcome, this will improve my English.

Example:

The United States of America is singular?

 

[helmut]

China has a poverty rate of 1.7%

United States has a poverty rate of 10.5%

This is a completely different subject. Germany has a lower poverty rate than the USA, though the average income in the USA is higher than in Germany. It is easier to become a billionaire in the USA, but harder to escape poverty, than in most countries of the world. This has nothing to do with a weak or strong economy, but rather with economic freedom versus a just society.

 

[Erik Nelson]

China has a poverty rate of 1.7%

United States has a poverty rate of 10.5%

The dramatic progress in reducing poverty over the past three decades in China is well known. According to the World Bank, more than 850 million Chinese people have been lifted out of extreme poverty; China's poverty rate fell from 88 percent in 1981 to 0.7 percent in 2015
Poverty in China - Wikipedia

...This tells me that outsourcing American jobs has helped China *big time*, and has not helped America.

Per OP title:

DNI John Ratcliffe: China Is Using Blackmail, Covert Influence to Target Members of Congress | News Break

FBI: Communist China Spy Infiltrated California Politicians, Including Russia Hoaxer Eric Swalwell (thefederalist.com)

BREAKING: Trudeau invited Chinese military to train in Canada | The Post Millennial

The Biggest Scandal in Modern Times - The Dan Bongino Show (substack.com)

Georgia, Mired in Election Disputes, Fosters Cozy Ties With China (theepochtimes.com)

Facebook fact-checker funded by Chinese money; Arizona GOP to file election case in SCOTUS | NTD - YouTube

 

[mindlight]

China has a poverty rate of 1.7%

United States has a poverty rate of 10.5%

The dramatic progress in reducing poverty over the past three decades in China is well known. According to the World Bank, more than 850 million Chinese people have been lifted out of extreme poverty; China's poverty rate fell from 88 percent in 1981 to 0.7 percent in 2015
Poverty in China - Wikipedia

...This tells me that outsourcing American jobs has helped China *big time*, and has not helped America.

You're not comparing like for like. The Chinese numbers relate to absolute poverty and the American numbers to relative poverty. Americans are richer by far on a per capita basis.

 

[Ophiolite]

Also, I think it's interesting how the *only* people opposed to increased American production are non-Americans.

Anecdotes can easily be dismissed as cherry picking irrelevancies. I mention this so that you will feel no discomfort in discounting my next comment.

As a Brit working for an American company I voiced my strong reservations about moving our production facilities for a major product line from the US to China. These reservations were totally ignored. This is the reverse of what you describe.

 

[Estrid]

The USA tried to make a free trade agreement with the Asian-Pacific region. Then came Trump, and according to his "America first" strategy, his plan ended in the waste-basket. If you compare countries to individuals, that (and the whole "America first" policy) meant the USA got egoistic.

And like individuals, the fellows of an egoist who does not want to cooperate in the group unite against him. So the America-Pacific-Asia agreement was somewhat changed and is now created as an Asia-Pacific free trade agreement, with China replacing the USA.

It will take years, if not decades, for the USA to cope with the backslash for the US economy that will result of this. And the first one who will probably blamed for this will be Biden, who will not get the economic rebound he could have get if the original agreement would have come into existence.

Trump has paved a way for one of the greatest successes of China since he communist conquered the second half of China (thanks to the "air lift" to Berlin which took air force support away from Chiang Kai-shek).

EDIT: typos

Considering that entire regiments would equip with American
equipment and then join Mao, airlifting yet more supplies
to the corrupt and inept Nationalists would hardly have
been constructive.

Your complete misreading of that situation may speak
to the rest of your analysis.

 

[helmut]

Considering that entire regiments would equip with American
equipment and then join Mao

Mao is dead, joining Mao means committing suicide? Or do you imply members of the APEC (say, Australia) would join with China if there was a free trade zone?

airlifting yet more supplies
to the corrupt and inept Nationalists would hardly have
been constructive.

"Corrupt and inept nationalist" would be a good description of the ruling Party in Taiwan (Guomindang) in the late 1940's. But that's long ago ...

And it seems to me that to confuse trade with development aid. If you don't, please be more explicit in what you want to say.

 

[Estrid]

I could not begin to guess how many Americans are racist Most would deny that they are. I see latent racist tendencies in myself at times. How many times have you heard someone say "You know I don't have a racist bone in my body but ........"? As soon as those words are out you know you going to hear something racist. They are not even aware that it is racist. Most racists, however many there might be, are not in-your-face white supremacists.

I expect it is difficult to find anyone anywhere on
planet earth who cannot be identified under the
label "racist".
Its well to recognize what is a natural
state of affairs for what it is.
As natural as it is for social animals
of other species to shun or attack one
of their kind that is different, be it appearance
or clan.

Rather than this too- expansive blanket
term and condemnation of " racism"
as evil and moral turpitude of the first order,
understand it!

Labeling, stereotyping, vilifiying whole
groups of people as "racist" is itself just another
iteration of extreme racism.

 

[Estrid]

Mao is dead, joining Mao means committing suicide? Or do you imply members of the APEC (say, Australia) would join with China if there was a free trade zone?


"Corrupt and inept nationalist" would be a good description of the ruling Party in Taiwan (Guomindang) in the late 1940's. But that's long ago ...

And it seems to me that to confuse trade with development aid. If you don't, please be more explicit in what you want to say.

I guess so! You misconstrued exactly everything I said.

 

[helmut]

I expect it is difficult to find anyone anywhere on
planet earth who cannot be identified under the
label "racist"..

Depends on the definition.

Someone who sometimes discovers some racist trait in himself and is appalled is no racist.

Scientists say that differences in body are not that much in humans to speak of "races". There have been different human races ("us", i.e. homo sapiens sapiens, the Neanderthal man, the Denisova man, the Flores man and possibly another race in Africa, which is suspected because of genetic traits in modern humans but is has to be discovered). Neanderthal genes, Asians less Neanderthal and more Denisova genes, Africans neither genes), but modern humans are a single race.

Discovering differences, whether in body (East African people are good long distance runners, because of their long legs, Innuits are more adapted to cold climate, ...) or in culture is no racism. The racism starts when these differences are used to view some people "superior" to others. Every person has the same rights, there should be no discrimination.

Often racism claims "racial" differences which are not existent. The most prominent example is the so-called Jewish race.

EDIT: missing "s"

 

[helmut]

I guess so! You misconstrued exactly everything I said.

I simply did not understand what you wanted to say.

Recently we had a discussion about G% and whether crucial parts for this technology could be purchased from Huawei, the company with the most advanced technology in that area. If China wants good weapons and needs high-tech, it can use own technology, or buy technology from, say, Taiwan (even Apple uses hardware manufactured in Taiwan or even China for their I-phones) or South Korea. And these countries (together with others) in a trade agreement without the USA, but with China should prevent China from buying there?

50 years ago, you sentences made sense. But not in 2020. At least not in every interpretation I could find. If I misunderstood you, correct me.

 

[Estrid]

English is not my mother tongue, so every hint where I made a mistake is welcome, this will improve my English.


The United States of America is singular?

Usage has shifted from "these" United States
to " the".

 

[Estrid]

Depends on the definition.

Someone who sometimes discover some racist trait in himself and is appalled is no racist.

Scientists say that differences in body are not that much in humans to speak of "races". There have been different human races ("us", i.e. homo sapiens sapiens, the Neanderthal man, the Denisova man, the Flores man and possibly another race in Africa, which is suspected because of genetic traits in modern humans but is has to be discovered). Neanderthal genes, Asians less Neanderthal and more Denisova genes, Africans neither genes), but modern humans are a single race.

Discovering differences, whether in body (East African people are good long distance runners, because of their long legs, Innuits are more adapted to cold climate, ...) or in culture is no racism. The racism starts when these differences are used to view some people "superior" to others. Every person has the same rights, there should be no discrimination.

Often racism claims "racial" differences which are not existent. The most prominent example is the so-called Jewish race.

I guess I'm not up for playing equivication,