China confiscates bibles

[Utah Knight]

http://www.kutv.com/news/world/story.aspx?content_id=6c1bfd9c-58a1-42ad-80e8-e045f88b36fb

 

[NPH]

I love the part where the dolt says "We are waiting for them to come back with the law in English.". Does he not realize that Chinese is the language of China? It's like if someone from China came to America and said "I'm not following any of your laws and you can't make me, not until you show them to me in Chinese" lol

Plainly, they broke the law and now they're crying about the consequences. Just another opportunity to play the 'persecuted christians' card.

 

[eldermike]

This is how laws get changed. Control over religous freedom will eventually get you thrown out of power, check your history books. Breaking bondages is what the bible is all about.

 

[soblessed53]

Originally posted by NPH

Plainly, they broke the law and now they're crying about the consequences. Just another opportunity to play the 'persecuted christians' card.

Let's see are you saying that Christians are not persecuted in China? Only the phony 'State-Run' church with their phony 'State- Approved' Bibles are allowed,and when the Chinese Christians are caught gathering in homes or wherever,with their 'genuine' Bibles they are imprisoned,where they are used as unpaid slave-labor,tortured,and often killed,(often to harvest their body-parts which are then sold). Yes,the Bible smugglers broke the law,as have many other heroes of the Bible broken the ungodly laws of ungodly nations,to further God's work! Only a true spirit-filled Christian knows/understands how their brothers and sisters in Christ hunger for the Word of God,and that drives them to supply their need by becoming Bible smugglers to nations like China and Russia and the Islamic nations. There would be no need to do this at all,if the nations they live in truly permitted freedom of religion as they falsely claim to!

 

[NPH]

Bother to read the article much? China has bibles so no one is lacking the purported words of the christian god if they wish to read them. China does what it feels is best for China. They don't seem to feel they need outside proselytizing and their laws reflect that. If one wishes to break those laws then one shouldn't complain when they suffer the consequences of their criminal actions.

As for the rest of the hyperbole ... meh. China's better off without religion anyway, but then so is everywhere else as well.

 

[MoonlessNight]

Bother to read the article much? China has bibles so no one is lacking the purported words of the christian god if they wish to read them. China does what it feels is best for China. They don't seem to feel they need outside proselytizing and their laws reflect that. If one wishes to break those laws then one shouldn't complain when they suffer the consequences of their criminal actions.

As for the rest of the hyperbole ... meh. China's better off without religion anyway, but then so is everywhere else as well.

I suppose China has a "Catholic Church" so there is no need for the underground bishops, is there? And they have perfectly good state run press, so there is no need for any further reporting.

Besides that you are conflating the Chinese government and the Chinese people. The Chinese government is above all concerned with the communist party staying in power, which is great if you happen to be a communist loyalist but otherwise not so much.

 

[keith99]

I love the part where the dolt says "We are waiting for them to come back with the law in English.". Does he not realize that Chinese is the language of China? It's like if someone from China came to America and said "I'm not following any of your laws and you can't make me, not until you show them to me in Chinese" lol

Plainly, they broke the law and now they're crying about the consequences. Just another opportunity to play the 'persecuted christians' card.

Looking only at the Chineese vrs English thing to start:

These bibles are in Chineese, there are plenty of Bibles in Chineese readly available in China. The only issue would be if they are inaccurate versions. But now the people taking in Bibles clearly show they do not know Chineese! How are they to judge?

Clearly they are outside adjatators! No country like such. Hardly a surprise that China want to limit the damage they do.

Last point. In almost every non-Islamic country if I enter I can bring in a liter of 2 for personal use. Actually it is the same for everything! My baggage is supposed to be for my personal use, not for distribution. They were taking in 100 bibles each. That is not personal use or gifts for hosts. That is de facto illegal importation. They were still permitted one each for personal use.

 

[NPH]

I suppose China has a "Catholic Church" so there is no need for the underground bishops, is there? And they have perfectly good state run press, so there is no need for any further reporting.

That's the way they do things. If the people want it changed then they'll find a way to change it. Either it's important enough and they'll do whatever it takes or it's not that important and they won't.

But the topic of the OP is bringing bibles into China, not the status of religion in China. China already has a sufficiency of bibles for those who wish to have them, so what need is there to send in more?

Besides that you are conflating the Chinese government and the Chinese people. The Chinese government is above all concerned with the communist party staying in power, which is great if you happen to be a communist loyalist but otherwise not so much.

Show me a government that isn't above all concerned with the party in power staying in power. America is great if you happen to be a Republican or Democrat, otherwise not so much.

 

[NPH]

Last point. In almost every non-Islamic country if I enter I can bring in a liter of 2 for personal use. Actually it is the same for everything! My baggage is supposed to be for my personal use, not for distribution. They were taking in 100 bibles each. That is not personal use or gifts for hosts. That is de facto illegal importation. They were still permitted one each for personal use.

Bingo.

We would not tolerate such de facto importation of goods without using proper channels and the paying of the appropriate taxes here in America, why should we expect China to tolerate it?

I guarantee that American bible publishers would pitch a fit if the government started letting foreign bible publishers bring their product into the country tax-free.

 

[craigerNY]

They broke the law so folks should not be surprised to see China call them out on it. Just the same, attempts to control religion in my opinion are attempts to control thought. It is a very scary policy but unfotunately it is their policy and if an outsider breaks it we shouldn't be surprised to see them taken to task. Surprised? No. Upset? Sure.

 

[soblessed53]

Let's see,the persecuted Christians are willing to risk torture and death to have secret house churches,and to be caught with bibles that are the true translations of the Word of God,guess there must be a life and death difference between the genuine article and the counterfeit,eh?

 

[NPH]

Let's see,the persecuted Christians are willing to risk torture and death to have secret house churches,and to be caught with bibles that are the true translations of the Word of God,guess there must be a life and death difference between the genuine article and the counterfeit,eh?

I have no idea what you are talking about or how this relates to the OP whatsoever. Perhaps if you took some time to explain what you are saying rather than littering posts with hyperbole there could be a discussion?

 

[soblessed53]

Just refuting the bologna that there is freedom of religion,and 'authentic' bibles allowed in China!

How happy would you be if you were only given tasteless no nutritional value synthetic food,and yet everyone kept saying you are being well-fed?And worse,what if you faced years of imprisonment as a slave-laborer or torture/death if you were caught with genuine food?

'THAT' is the difference between the fake state-run propaganda churches and bibles and the genuine worship these Christians risk their lives for.

 

[NPH]

Just refuting the bologna that there is freedom of religion,and 'authentic' bibles allowed in China!

Well, it's not a freedom of religion issue, except as a dodge to cover the fact that these individuals were illegally importing foreign-made materials, it's an importation of foreign goods issue so that really doesn't matter.

As for 'authentic' bibles, how do you know the bibles published in China are not 'authentic'? Last I checked there were scads of translations, all considered 'authentic' by one group or another. So what makes the bibles that these folk are trying to import more 'authentic' than the ones already being published in China?

 

[NPH]

How happy would you be if you were only given tasteless no nutritional value synthetic food,and yet everyone kept saying you are being well-fed?

If the laws of my country only allowed for non-nutritional, tasteless food then I would either strive to change the laws or live with it (until death, since that would be the consequence for everyone from non-nutritional food), depending on how important I found that to be.

That still wouldn't give people from England, for example, the right to import Blood Sausage into my country.

So how are the bibles published in China spiritually "non-nutritional"? You've read them all, I assume?

 

[soblessed53]

Originally Posted by NPH

So how are the bibles published in China spiritually "non-nutritional"? You've read them all, I assume?

No but I have read about China's persecuted Christians and those who work with them.

The Heavenly Man: The Remarkable True Story of Chinese Christian Brother Yun
Product Description
A dramatic autobiography of one of China's dedicated, courageous, and intensely persecuted house church leaders.

http://www.amazon.com/Heavenly-Man-...r_1_26?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219080191&sr=1-26

and about Watchman Nee...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchman_Nee

The state-approved bibles do not teach scripture. The atheistic Communists fear the freedom that comes through Christ,so no way will they allow His teachings!
Kinda impossible to control and break the will and spirit of folks whose spirits are soaring on the wings of eagles!

 

[NPH]

Neither of those links say a single word about the bibles published in China. These are, yet again, comments about religious freedom in China which is not the issue.

The state-approved bibles do not teach scripture.

A bible doesn't teach scripture, it is scripture.

So, can you provide any evidence that the bibles published in China are not 'authentic' in any way or are you going to keep trying to make this a matter of persecution and religious freedom? Until you provide any evidence that the bibles published in China are in some way inferior your position has no merit.

 

[AmyGlen]

So, can you provide any evidence that the bibles published in China are not 'authentic' in any way or are you going to keep trying to make this a matter of persecution and religious freedom? Until you provide any evidence that the bibles published in China are in some way inferior your position has no merit.

If the Bibles published in China aren't heavily edited then it would seem odd for Chinese officials to have Chinese Christians thrown into jail for using unauthorized bibles. If it's the same basic text then why make such a big deal about bibles being authorized or not?

 

[I <3 Abraham]

Bother to read the article much? China has bibles so no one is lacking the purported words of the christian god if they wish to read them. China does what it feels is best for China. They don't seem to feel they need outside proselytizing and their laws reflect that. If one wishes to break those laws then one shouldn't complain when they suffer the consequences of their criminal actions.

The essential question in this story is not whether China has the right to enforce its laws--China obviously has that right. The question is whether or not the law we are considering is a good one, and whether freedom of religion (which is granted by Chinese law) is possible given the conditions brought to light by the OP's article. That is the reason why other posters keep bringing up freedom of religion, which will become clear.

Here is one good example of the uneasiness that Christians have when considering the policies of the Chinese government vis-a-vis its Christian citizens

I suppose China has a "Catholic Church" so there is no need for the underground bishops, is there? And they have perfectly good state run press, so there is no need for any further reporting.

Here, Moonless is arguing that because Chinese Christians do not have the freedom to publish the bible independently of the state, the authenticity of the product is doubtful. He is making this point by analogy, arguing that a state run news-media is on-face untrustworthy because it disallows alternatives.

So as not to get off on a tangent, he is arguing by analogy and need not prove that the Chinese news-media disallows alternatives. All he needs to prove in this point is that a state controlled media environment (were one to exist) is not one that can be trusted because its loyalty is to the state and not its clientele.

That is precisely the situation in which Chinese Christians find themselves when considering a state published bible or attending state controlled worship.

Here is another good example:

Let's see,the persecuted Christians are willing to risk torture and death to have secret house churches,and to be caught with bibles that are the true translations of the Word of God,guess there must be a life and death difference between the genuine article and the counterfeit,eh?

Here, SoBlessed is arguing through anecdotal evidence. The argument is two parted. First, there are many illegal house-churches that operate outside of state control with their own materials and with their own worship. Second, the consequences for these people are quite serious.

Therefore, there must be some important differences between the state materials and worship and what is provided in the house churches otherwise no one would run important risks to attend house churches.

Your response to this:

I have no idea what you are talking about or how this relates to the OP whatsoever. Perhaps if you took some time to explain what you are saying rather than littering posts with hyperbole there could be a discussion?

Your response surprises me in that I feel her argument was fairly straightforward, and I think you will need to respond to it as it provides at least some kind of evidence that the bibles offered by the state are not legitimate.



As to your argument that this is about import law, please remember that this is not a question of whether China has the right to write and enforce laws as it chooses, but whether those laws are consistent with the right to religious freedom that China purports to have.

Here, we come to the heart of your argument

Neither of those links say a single word about the bibles published in China. These are, yet again, comments about religious freedom in China which is not the issue.

Please see my arguments concerning Soblessed's initial post in this thread as well as the point that I make about the contradiction between religious freedom and state controlled publishing.

The state-approved bibles do not teach scripture.
​

A bible doesn't teach scripture, it is scripture.

This is not an argument and I think you understand what Soblessed's point was: the bibles and their content are suspect.

So, can you provide any evidence that the bibles published in China are not 'authentic' in any way or are you going to keep trying to make this a matter of persecution and religious freedom? Until you provide any evidence that the bibles published in China are in some way inferior your position has no merit.

She has made an argument and provided a kind of evidence that the bibles are not legitimate. I think that if you respond to this post point by point we can have a fruitful discussion.

Overall, I disagree with the way that this argument is being framed by all involved, but maybe we can get to that once you address my post.

 

[soblessed53]

If the Bibles published in China aren't heavily edited then it would seem odd for Chinese officials to have Chinese Christians thrown into jail for using unauthorized bibles. If it's the same basic text then why make such a big deal about bibles being authorized or not?

Exactly!

The essential question in this story is not whether China has the right to enforce its laws--China obviously has that right. The question is whether or not the law we are considering is a good one, and whether freedom of religion (which is granted by Chinese law) is possible given the conditions brought to light by the OP's article. That is the reason why other posters keep bringing up freedom of religion, which will become clear.

Here is one good example of the uneasiness that Christians have when considering the policies of the Chinese government vis-a-vis its Christian citizens

Here, Moonless is arguing that because Chinese Christians do not have the freedom to publish the bible independently of the state, the authenticity of the product is doubtful. He is making this point by analogy, arguing that a state run news-media is on-face untrustworthy because it disallows alternatives.

So as not to get off on a tangent, he is arguing by analogy and need not prove that the Chinese news-media disallows alternatives. All he needs to prove in this point is that a state controlled media environment (were one to exist) is not one that can be trusted because its loyalty is to the state and not its clientele.

That is precisely the situation in which Chinese Christians find themselves when considering a state published bible or attending state controlled worship.

Here is another good example:

Here, SoBlessed is arguing through anecdotal evidence. The argument is two parted. First, there are many illegal house-churches that operate outside of state control with their own materials and with their own worship. Second, the consequences for these people are quite serious.

Therefore, there must be some important differences between the state materials and worship and what is provided in the house churches otherwise no one would run important risks to attend house churches.

Your response to this:


Your response surprises me in that I feel her argument was fairly straightforward, and I think you will need to respond to it as it provides at least some kind of evidence that the bibles offered by the state are not legitimate.



As to your argument that this is about import law, please remember that this is not a question of whether China has the right to write and enforce laws as it chooses, but whether those laws are consistent with the right to religious freedom that China purports to have.

Here, we come to the heart of your argument

Please see my arguments concerning Soblessed's initial post in this thread as well as the point that I make about the contradiction between religious freedom and state controlled publishing.


This is not an argument and I think you understand what Soblessed's point was: the bibles and their content are suspect.


She has made an argument and provided a kind of evidence that the bibles are not legitimate. I think that if you respond to this post point by point we can have a fruitful discussion.

Overall, I disagree with the way that this argument is being framed by all involved, but maybe we can get to that once you address my post.

Thank You! God Bless You and AmyGlen,and I will bow out of this thread now.