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Featured Children in the Rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by joshua 1 9, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Exactly those who are still alive and who remain (as in they did not physically die but are still alive) at the coming of the Lord Jesus will not precede those who have fallen asleep (physically died) will be caught up (raptured) to be with Christ when He returns in that Day of the Lord to be glorified in all those who believe.

    2 Thess 1
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that Day.
     
  2. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    You and all who think they will be 'raptured' to heaven, fail to see how the Lord's people will go to live in all of the holy Land area, soon after His terrible Day of wrath has cleared that entire area. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, +
    We will not be a part of the One World Govt, or have to take the 'mark' in order to buy and sell. !44,000 of us will receive the mark of God.
    Living in the holy Land in peace and prosperity as God has promised, WILL be like heaven!
     
  3. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    This prophecy refers to the Lord's Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal event. Jesus will reveal Himself to His Christian peoples, Revelation 14:1 Not to the world, as yet, until all that must happen before His Return in glory. Revelation 19:11
     
  4. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm opening a huge can of worms, but how many believe that even "unclean" children will be in heaven? Are all aborted children of sinful mother's and father's in heaven? Some think so, but why would God command the children of Israel to kill every man, woman and child of some countries?

    1 Corinthians 7:
    14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

    Acts 11:
    14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ Of course, in chapter 16, "the whole household" was preached to and accepted the words. I'm just thinking about their babies in the household too.
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    But Millions of faithful Christians HAVE been martyred in horrible ways. Children, elderly and all.
    What makes you think that God, who allowed them to die, will not allow it now? In fact He IS still allowing Christian martyrdom right now; in Islamic countries and even in so called Christian countries.
    There are anti-Christs around now, why should God suddenly protect those who stand firm in their Christian faith, when the Anti-Christ appears?
     
  6. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    The resurrection occurs on the Last Day. Examples here
    John 6:39
    And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    John 6:40
    And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    John 6:44
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    John 6:54
    Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    John 11:24
    Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    The LAST DAY then MUST also be the rapture day when Christ returns, the dead rise first...v16 then is the Last Day.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    If what scripture teaches here is different from what you believe, then you must change your mind.
     
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  7. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Those who come out of the Great Tribulations, people think were saved during the GT. But, that is not true. When the Antichrist appears on the scene, God will put a strong delusion on all Gentiles that are not already in the Church. God will protect some Christians, but only the Philadelphian Rev. 3) type Christian. Those who believe all God's word and follow it, but those of Thyatira (RCC and Orthodox, Rev. 2), Sardis (the dead church of the Reformation), and Laodecian lukewarm Christians, will either take the mark of the beast and live and be damned, or stand for Christ and be martyred and live forever.

    cc: @JacksBratt
     
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  8. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The Last Day of Gods great Plan for mankind will be at year 7000. After the Millennium.
    We know who those dead in Christ are from Revelation 20:4.
    All the rest of humankind who have died await the GWT Judgment, including Daniel 12:13

    If what scripture actually teaches is different from your beliefs, then you must change your mind.
     
  9. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Where are you coming up with the year 7000?? No one can predict such a date.
     
  10. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Does anyone here realize that the resurrection and rapture to heaven happens at the Harvest?...........

    Most scholars agree Luke 21 is talking about 70AD Jerusalem.

    Unlike Matt and Mar, Luk uses the singular word "cloud"......

    Why does Luke 21:27 use the singular "cloud" instead of "clouds"?

    Luke 21:27
    And then they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud, with power and much glory; [Revelation 14]

    Acts 1:9 And these saying, of them looking,
    He was lifted-up and a cloud took-up Him from their sight

    Revelation 14:
    14And I saw, and behold! a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;
    15and another messenger did come forth out of the sanctuary crying in a great Voice to him who is sitting upon the cloud, ‘Send forth thy sickle and reap, because come to thee hath the hour of reaping, because ripe hath been the harvest of the earth;’
    16and he who is sitting upon the cloud did put forth his sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped.

    Revelation 11:11
    And after the three days and half days, a breath of life out of the God entered in them and they stand upon their feet and fear great fall upon the ones observing them.
    12 And they hear a Voice great out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!"
    And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud....


    The rest are thrown into the Winepress of the wrath of God.......

    17And another messenger did come forth out of the Sanctuary in the heaven, having — he also — a sharp sickle,
    18and another messenger did come forth out from the altar, having authority over the fire, and he called with a great cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying, ‘Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because come to perfection have her grapes;’
    19and the messenger did put forth his sickle to the earth, and did gather the vine of the earth, and did cast [it] to the great wine-press of the wrath of God;
    20and trodden was the wine-press outside of the City, and blood did come forth out of the wine-press — unto the bridles of the horses, a thousand, six hundred furlongs.
    ===============================
    This commentary describes the 2 major resurrections shown in Revelation...........Partial Preterist and Amills might enjoy this concerning Jerusalem, Josephus and the Jewish Wars......

    Revelation 14 - The Grim Reaper

    Witnesses to the Jewish War Mention a Seemingly Disembodied Voice that pleaded for repentance and warned of Impending Disaster. Were these the Angelic Warnings of vs. 6-11?

    In vs. 6-11 three angels issue warnings to Babylon, which is Jerusalem, to repent. During the four years before the war began, Josephus says that Jesus the son of Ananus was never seen by anyone though his voice was often heard wailing, “Woe, woe to Jerusalem!”3 Was this disembodied voice the voice that issued the warnings in vs. 6-11?4

    12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. 13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

    It is often supposed in Christian circles that the resurrection is a one-time event. However, Revelation 20:4-6 explicitly mentions at least two major resurrections. The fact that there is more than one resurrection also appears to be implied in v. 13: “’Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.’” Each saint who dies after the first century resurrection appears to receive their heavenly resurrection body immediately after death without having to await their redemption in Sheol first. See the preterist commentary on Revelation 7:15-17. Evidence of the fact that the events described in Revelation have already taken place is found in the testimony of thousands of people who have had near-death experiences. Many people who have suffered clinical death and have been successfully resuscitated describe a beautiful and glorious afterlife similar to the new Jerusalem of Revelation 21 and Revelation 22. These experiences would be surprising if the resurrection of the first fruits had not yet occurred.

    The Fact that the Heavenly Beings in vs. 14-18 are holding Sickles hints at the Fact that the Events described above may have transpired during the Harvest Months.

    The fact that the Son of Man and the angels in the above verses are all holding sickles hints at the fact that the events described above may have transpired during the harvest months. The major Jewish holidays coincided with the various harvests. Passover was during the barley harvest. Pentecost occurred during the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Tabernacles, during the grape harvest. The fact that Jesus and the angels from the Temple are holding sickles points to both the barley and wheat harvests. Both barley and wheat were harvested with a sickle. The barley harvest began around Passover, in the middle of Nisan. The wheat harvest began in Sivan around Pentecost. The grape harvest is also alluded to in v. 18. In Revelation 14:18 sickles are used by the angels to cut grape clusters from the vine. The fact that vs. 14-18 allude to both the grain and grape harvests implies that the heavenly events mentioned above took place sometime around Nisan at the start of the barley harvest and ended around Tishri during the grape harvest. The events of vs. 14-18 are also mentioned in Revelation 8:1-6 and Revelation 15:5-8:1. Not surprisingly, first century historians describe various supernatural events that seem to fulfill these verses during the months of the grain and grape harvests at the start of the Jewish War in A.D. 66. It, therefore, does not appear to be a coincidence that the Jews began their revolt against Rome during the barley harvest in A.D. 66, and the Roman offensive under Cestius began at the start of the grape harvest that same year. Thus it is not surprising that the Bible also refers to the end of the age as a harvest in Matthew 13:39: “The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.” See Revelation 8: A Preterist Commentary and Revelation 15: A Preterist Commentary.

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    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
  11. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    The resurrection of the saints in Christ and the rapture are both on the Last Day.
    Jesus said that and Paul also said it. You can not have all the dead in Christ believers rising from the dead and it not be the resurrection, just as 1 Thess 4 says, the dead in Christ shall rise first..

    The Comfort of Christ’s Coming
    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
     
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Then this Harvest must be the last Day..........

    Revelation 14:
    14And I saw, and behold! a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;
    15and another messenger did come forth out of the sanctuary crying in a great Voice to him who is sitting upon the cloud, ‘Send forth thy sickle and reap, because come to thee hath the hour of reaping, because ripe hath been the harvest of the earth;’
    16and he who is sitting upon the cloud did put forth his sickle upon the land, and the land was reaped.

    Revelation 11:11
    And after the three days and half days, a breath of life out of the God entered in them and they stand upon their feet and fear great fall upon the ones observing them.
    12 And they hear a Voice great out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!"
    And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud....


    The rest are thrown into the Winepress of the wrath of God outside the City............which City?
    The great City shown in Revelation 11:8-9 and Revelation 18:7!

    The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19


    17And another messenger did come forth out of the Sanctuary in the heaven, having — he also — a sharp sickle,
    18and another messenger did come forth out from the altar, having authority over the fire, and he called with a great cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying, ‘Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because come to perfection have her grapes;’
    19and the messenger did put forth his sickle to the earth, and did gather the vine of the earth, and did cast [it] to the great wine-press of the wrath of God;

    20and trodden was the wine-press outside of the City, and blood did come forth out of the wine-press — unto the bridles of the horses, a thousand, six hundred furlongs.
     
  13. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    There will be no second chance after the saints are raised.
     
  14. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Revelation 14, the harvest vs the grapes of wrath.
    First harvest is the Lord Jesus reaping the earth, for the kingdom of God.
    Second reaper (an angel) reaps the vine OF THE EARTH, (so they are not of God, but earthly, devilish of the devil), so then the unbelieving spiritually dead persons (grapes of wrath)

    The Parable of the Tares Explained
    36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

    37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

    40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

    The Parable of the Dragnet
    47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind,
    48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.

    49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
    50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Can we agree that the great City in Revelation is Jerusalem, either 70ad or future?

    The great City shown in Revelation 11:8-9 and Revelation 18:7!

    The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

    17And another messenger did come forth out of the Sanctuary in the heaven, having — he also — a sharp sickle,
    18and another messenger did come forth out from the altar, having authority over the fire, and he called with a great cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying, ‘Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because come to perfection have her grapes;’
    19and the messenger did put forth his sickle to the earth, and did gather the vine of the earth, and did cast [it] to the great wine-press of the wrath of God;

    20and trodden was the wine-press outside of the City, and blood did come forth out of the wine-press — unto the bridles of the horses, a thousand, six hundred furlongs.
    ===================
    This denotes famine caused by the 70 siege of Jerusalem...................

    Revelation 6:6
    And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "a measure of grain/wheat a denari and three measures of barleys a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."

    Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism
    The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70
    CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline
    CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR


    Revelation 14 - The Grim Reaper

    Though the Jews revolted against Rome during the Barley Harvest, the Roman Offensive Began at the Start of the Grape Harvest hence the Grape Harvest Symbolism in vs. 19-20.
    Far from depicting a Literal Flood of Blood, Revelation 14:20 portrays Jesus riding on His White Horse as He does in Revelation 19:11-15 shedding Blood up to the His Horse’s Bridle throughout Israel as He “treads the Winepress” in Judgment.


    The Jordan River is 251 kilometers long which is exactly 1,600 stadia. In the words of Fred Hoyle, a Cambridge University Astronomer, there were “three different units bearing that name [stade] [that] were in use: the itinerary stade, used in measuring the distance of a journey and equal in length to about 157 meters; the Olympic stade of 185 meters; and the royal Egyptian stade of 210 meters.”11 Since we are calculating the length of a river, one must use the itinerary unit. Converting 1600 itinerary stadia to kilometers is a simple calculation: 1600stadia X 157m/stadia X 1 km/1000 m = 251.2 km. Thus 1600 itinerary stadia is equivalent to 251.2 km, the exact length of the Jordan River!

    In v. 20, John sees blood flowing like wine as high as the horses’ bridles for 1,600 stadia. This flood is a metaphor of the destruction of Israel in preparation for its re-creation. Floods are often used in the Bible as a metaphor for an invading army (Jeremiah 46:7-8; 47:1-2; 51:55-56; Ezekiel 26:3; Daniel 11:10, 40; Nahum 1:8). This symbolism points to Rome quite well since Rome is represented by the sea throughout the Book of Revelation. See In the Bible “Earth” Signifies the Specific Land Addressed While “Sea” Symbolizes Foreign Nations.

    Hyperbole like that found in v. 20 in which blood is said to flow as high as a horse’s bridle for 1,600 stadia is not uncommon in Hebrew sacred texts and historical accounts of the time. In fact, the idea of blood flowing up to a horse’s head at an extreme distance seems to have been a fairly common Jewish expression denoting a great slaughter since nearly identical imagery is found in the 1 Enoch, the Midrash and Talmud. 1 Enoch 100:2-3 reads, “From dawn until the sun sets, they shall slay each other. The horse shall walk through the blood of sinners up to his chest; and the chariot shall sink down up to its top.” Concerning the slaughter of Jewish rebels during the second Jewish revolt in the second century A.D., the following is written in the Midrash: “They [the Roman army under Hadrian] slew the inhabitants [the Jewish rebels of Bethar] until the horses waded in blood up to the nostrils, and the blood rolled along stones of the size of forty se’ ah and flowed into the sea [staining it for] a distance of four miles.”12 Concerning the same war, the Midrash also says, “He [Hadrian] immediately surrounded them [the Jewish rebels] with his legions and slaughtered them, so that their blood streamed [to the coast and stained the sea] as far as Cyprus.”13 Concerning this slaughter at Bethar, the Babylonian Talmud uses similar language: “These are the eighty [thousand] trumpets which assembled in the city of Bethar when it was taken and men, women and children were slain in it until their blood ran into the great sea. Do you think this was near? It was a whole mil away.”14

    Similar language is also found in the Apocalypse of Daniel. The Apocalypse of Daniel of the ninth century A.D. is a pseudepigraphal work falsely purported to have been written by the prophet Daniel. The first seven chapters of this book relay the history of the Byzantino-Arab wars of the eighth century A.D. in cryptic prophetic language. In other words, chapters one to seven are essentially history masquerading as prophecy.15 Thus the following excerpt describes the recent Byzantino-Arab wars in the following hyperbolic language: “And in the streets of the Seven-hilled (city) [Byzantium] horses will be submerged, drowning in blood (The Apocalypse of Daniel 4:8).”
     
  16. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Gods Plan for mankind is for a decreed time; 6000 years when we rule ourselves and make a mess of it, then 1000 years of benevolent rule by King Jesus.
    We are currently at 5989 +/- 1 or 2, years since Adam.
    The 'Last Day' cannot be any other than the day before Eternity.
    As Martha said; My brother will rise at the Resurrection on the Last Day. John 11:24
    Thinking that Day is at Jesus' Return, is a contradiction of Revelation 20:4-5 So the fanciful dream of a general Christian Resurrection then, is wrong and cannot happen.
     
  17. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    It is also against the rules.......

    Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
    • Date setting or date speculation is not allowed.
    • No Personal Prophecy (prophetic utterance) allowed.
     
  18. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    It isn't against forum rules to quote scripture.
    The proof of where we are at in God's timeline, is found in 47 scriptures.
    His 7000 year Plan, is found in Genesis 1; the six 'days' of Creation and then one 'day' of rest. One 'day' to God equals 1000 years. Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8

    AND by the advantage we have now of hindsight; 6000 actual years are nearly up.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's ok to be wrong but it's not ok to stay wrong. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Paul said the rapture is at the second coming so no one is "taken out of it" as in the GT. Plus, the rapture just takes people all over the globe and lifts them up to the clouds, all in the same place in the clouds...the first time all of them have been together as a group in one place...Jesus meets them and they follow him as he finishes the second coming so the rapture is brief, only takes people to the clouds and then all return TOGETHER to the Earth where Christ is going.

    However He chooses to. I wouldn't agree that there is going to be so many since most Christians will forsake God for the false god in the Apostasy.
     
  20. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's ok to be wrong but it's not ok to stay wrong. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Except no one was flown to heaven...teh Ark was right there on the waters during the flood. The raptured ones will be here as well, with Christ as the wrath of God begins. In both situations, the time of tribulation was over and the time of God's wrath was beginning. That's when the rapture happens.


    And still upon the Earth.


    Which is seconds after meeting Christ in the clouds.

    I doubt the rapture is only for one or two living Christians. It will be at least 144k but likely more than that. God will decide how many survive the trib and are raptured.
     
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