child bride predation v. mary's perpetual virginity

All4Christ

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My question to you was specific to the UNFPA. Please do answer the question that I actually asked. Would you be so kind as to scroll back and try again.

I've only seen a quote from one convention. If you have more quotes with citations, do post them, please.
My second post said "Apologies...I misread. I believe the UN as a whole believes that 18 is the appropriate age but throughout their treaties, they respect local custom within reason. The UNFPA does write an article that includes anything under 18 as an undesirable age for marriage, which can be understood easily to mean than marriage under 18 is a violation of human rights.

That said, should I read the article from the UNFPA without other treaties / articles from the UN, yes, I would conclude that they are stating that marriage under the age of 18 is a violation of human rights."

I honestly didn't want to get into a debate about this. I am getting ready to travel for our family Christmas. However, look up various treaties and you will find many treaties that have respect for reasonable local customs as well.
 
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Radagast

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Well, the UNICEF agency is quite unambiguous in their formulation: "Marriage before the age of 18 is a fundamental violation of human rights. Many factors interact to place a girl at risk of marriage."

The agency is, of course, out of step with most of the world (including the US), which allows 16-year-old girls to marry with parental consent.

Catholic Canon Law, interestingly enough, sets the threshold at 16 for boys and 14 for girls.
 
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All4Christ

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Well, the UNICEF agency is quite unambiguous in their formulation: "Marriage before the age of 18 is a fundamental violation of human rights. Many factors interact to place a girl at risk of marriage."

The agency is, of course, out of step with most of the world (including the US), which allows 16-year-old girls to marry with parental consent.

Catholic Canon Law, interestingly enough, sets the threshold at 16 for boys and 14 for girls.
I am curious as to why the age 18 was chosen for being mature enough for marriage...why not 17? 21? The age you can drink alcohol according to your country? Graduation from high school? The rite of entrance to adulthood according to your culture (though in some cultures that is too young imho...)
 
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Radagast

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I am curious as to why the age 18 was chosen for being mature enough for marriage..

What struck me about the UNICEF policy was the phrase "at risk of marriage."
 
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SolomonVII

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It was the ayatollahs of Iran that brought the age of marriage for girls back down to eight in Iran, due to the example set by the 'perfect man', Mohammed.
Or was it six?
No matter. This defines perverse, and accepting this as perverse is something that any person with civilized and humanitarian instincts will agree with.
This is where the problem with child brides lies. It is very much a third world problem, especially in populations where Muslims set the value system.
Child marriage is a big problem in many places in the world, and the same with child prostitution.
Eighteen is probably a good ball park figure of an optimal age for marriage, in the light of the way the world is. On the other hand, fifteen year olds stealing kisses on their parents front porches is pretty normal behavior too.
 
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He Calls Me Friend

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Nope, nor am I sola scriptura and Scripture is not meant to used as if everything is in there, the church is the pillar and foundation of truth not the Bible. Tradition has it from the very early Church that the Blessed Mother was ever virgin. However, this thread is not about the Blessed Mother but what is the age of consent and was St. Joesph a predator
 
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He Calls Me Friend

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Nope, nor am I sola scriptura and Scripture is not meant to used as if everything is in there, the church is the pillar and foundation of truth not the Bible. Tradition has it from the very early Church that the Blessed Mother was ever virgin. However, this thread is not about the Blessed Mother but what is the age of consent and was St. Joesph a predator

It seems ridiculous for us to even entertain the question if Joseph was a "predator" ... does anyone seriously think God would entrust his "only begotten son" to be raised by a predator?
 
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SolomonVII

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It seems ridiculous for us to even entertain the question if Joseph was a "predator" ... does anyone seriously think God would entrust his "only begotten son" to be raised by a predator?
No, of course not. It was extreme overreach on behalf of the OP to frame the debate that way.
 
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RDKirk

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No, of course not. It was extreme overreach on behalf of the OP to frame the debate that way.

We don't even know if the consummation of the betrothal of Mary and Joseph--the actual marriage--might not have been scheduled for years later.
 
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Arsenios

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No, of course not. It was extreme overreach on behalf of the OP to frame the debate that way.

Holy Tradition teaches us that Joseph betrothed the Holy Virgin for the sake of protecting the virginity in which she had already consecrated herself to God for her entire life up to the time when she would no longer be able to remain in the Temple because of the onset of her menses... Joseph was the Protector of her consecrating herself to God, and her lifelong virginity was but a byproduct of that Holy Consecration...

IF one looks at this Holy Family as God's camoflage of His Son's Incarnation, one will do well...

She was but another child in a family of a widower with other children, yet betrothed to him because not related by blood... Then she "turns up preggers" and the old man decides to simply set her aside quietly, perhaps thinking that she was not so "pure" as he had supposed her to be when he had agreed to give her his shelter... So the angel appeared to him, and he took her to wed as a young woman at the onset of menses who was pregnant of the Holy Spirit... And he protected her and her Hoy Child, and removed them from danger by fleeing to Egypt...

And in all this, when they returned from Egypt, the Holy Child was well concealed as the son of Joseph and Mary in a large family wherein she was not the mother except of Jesus, and he was the father of only his own children, and so successful was this Divine Deception, that when Jesus returned to his own home as the Christ, He was unable to do but a few miracles there, because they all knew him as Joseph's little kid, and did not have the personal faith needed for Him to do miracles... (God generally does not give His Holy Things to dogs, yes?)

This same Deception took Him straight into Hell when He gave up His Spirit on the Cross, in perfect concealment, where Hades itself fell by its own arrogance, swallowing what was for it the lethal pill that would break its iron bars by the presence of Life in its rulership of death... And the Victory of Life over death in the Resurrection of our Lord in the shattering of Hades Gates of Death's imprisonment of human life on earth in its discipling of those ensnared by death in their earthly lives preparing them for the imprisonment below...

Which is why the Early Church calls Christ's Resurrection the Pascha - The Passover of Death on earth unto Life Eternal in the Body of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ Who overcamd Death in His Own Body in Hades itself and earnestly desires that we be entered into His overcoming of that Death...

But I stray now from the OP...

Forgive me!

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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We don't even know if the consummation of the betrothal of Mary and Joseph--the actual marriage--might not have been scheduled for years later.
Total consecration to God, however and wherever one is deployed, is not something that is on again-off again... The Angel of Annunciation, who gained the assent of the Holy Virgin, praised her as having great Grace from God... At age 13-ish??

Where in the entire Bible has ANY Prophet been addressed at ANY age in those terms by ANY angel of God?
John the Baptist was described by Christ as the greatest of the Old Testament Prophets, for his holy hands Baptized our Lord in the Jordan... Yet the Holy virgin BIRTHED our Lord, and reared Him to adulthood...

So whereas I appreciate your not knowing about the private details of the marriage of Mary and Joseph, IF you were to speculate, as all discussion must be absent the witness of the Holy Tradition of the historic Body of Christ, is it not more than reasonable to speculate along the lines of Her virginigy, and not along the lines of carnal relations with her husband and having a passel of kids with him and raising them together with Jesus who would then have been their elder brother? She is recorded in the Good Book as a Blessed Virgin who was so full of Grace that God CHOSE Her to BE the Mother of His only-begotten Son...

Only Begotten...

By an earthly mother with a whole passel of kids???
OR...
Only Begotten of a Mother without a father
and of a Father without a mother...

Semper Fi, Bro'

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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NOTE: I wasn't sure where to put this. If this topic is too hot for this area, please move it to where it is appropriate.

A child bride is defined by the United Nations as any girl who is married before her 18th birthday. It is considered a Human rights violation. This is because such a girl does not have an adult brain, meaning her sense of self is not fully developed and she lacks many adult cognitive/emotional skills. It is why in many places, these teens cannot consent to sex with adult men. It makes no sense that if they cannot consent to sex, that they can consent to marriage.

The marriage of children to adult men has a long and sordid history. Men marry girls for a variety of reasons:
  1. They look hot
  2. Their virginity is intact
  3. They are easy to control -- THIS is the main one which we shall talk about
It seems like child brides are in the news all the time. We have Roy Moore's obsession and the scandal of Evangelical willingness to vote for him anyhow. We have the FLDS habit of marrying young girls to older men in their polygamous culture. We have the home schooling courtship scandal of fathers marrying off their teen daughters to older men. We have Phil Robertson of Duck Dynasty proclaiming on National TV that its better to marry a child because she's easier to boss around--and he doesn't lose any TV sponsorship for saying it.

In the past, child brides have been the norm for several reasons:
1. Children were considered small adults; there was no awareness of different cognitive development stages. It's an argument that people are dumb.
2. People died so very young, sometimes the average death was in the mid 30's. Having children at an early age must have seemed a necessity. Another ignorant argument -- teens die giving birth because their pelvises aren't large enough for the heads.
3. Most cultures in the world, including Christian culture, OUR culture, are Patriarchal, meaning that females are meant to be submissive, so the idea of choosing a child so that they would be more submissive would make sense.

BUT IS THIS THE WAY THAT GOD PLANNED? Is this his ideal? Is this what he wanted from the beginning, or is this the result of sin and needs fixing?

I say that the ideal is as Paul stated: to be submissive one to another. A wife submitting to her husband is balanced out by a husband sacrificing himself for her as Christ sacrificed himself for the church. You cannot have that kind of egalitarian relationship if there is a significant age difference, or an immature mind.

To sum things up, Child Marriage is a human rights violation. It is about control. It is predation. You want a girl who will learn music so she can lead the choir while you pastor? You can have that. You want a girl who will drop her education, bring you beer, take care of the kids and do all the house work? You can have that. You want a woman who gets a degree in education to better home school the kids? You can have that! She will like the TV shows you want to watch. She will cook the foods you want to eat. She will do sex the way you want sex. It's all about you. Predation.

This long introduction brings me to the heart of this post.

The Proto-gospel of James states that Joseph was a widower when he married Mary, who was 12 at that time. This means she was certainly either pre-pubescent or adolescent and he was an older man. Is this historically accurate? I don't think we can know for sure. But two things are certain:
1. This document is based on the oral traditions of Jesus' life
2. It is certainly was second century Christians believed about Mary and Joseph

Now I have heard a gazillion times from Protestants that Mary couldn't have been perpetually virgin because the Bible says that "he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son," and "until" means that they had sex following the birth. The idea here is that it would have been wierd and unnatural and unthinkable for Joseph and Mary to not have sex if they are married.

My question to those Protestants is this: Do you think Joseph was a predator? Because even if he left Mary alone for, say, a half dozen years, it means the marriage would have been "weird, unnatural and unthinkable" in Protestant thinking. How do you deal with this? I realize this is a hard question, and your answer probably won't be short.

This is a great, if secular, opening...

Of the question of the Virginity of the Blessed Virgin...

Thanks to Open Heart for a great thread...

Arsenios
 
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RDKirk

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Total consecration to God, however and wherever one is deployed, is not something that is on again-off again... The Angel of Annunciation, who gained the assent of the Holy Virgin, praised her as having great Grace from God... At age 13-ish??

Where in the entire Bible has ANY Prophet been addressed at ANY age in those terms by ANY angel of God?
John the Baptist was described by Christ as the greatest of the Old Testament Prophets, for his holy hands Baptized our Lord in the Jordan... Yet the Holy virgin BIRTHED our Lord, and reared Him to adulthood...

So whereas I appreciate your not knowing about the private details of the marriage of Mary and Joseph, IF you were to speculate, as all discussion must be absent the witness of the Holy Tradition of the historic Body of Christ, is it not more than reasonable to speculate along the lines of Her virginigy, and not along the lines of carnal relations with her husband and having a passel of kids with him and raising them together with Jesus who would then have been their elder brother? She is recorded in the Good Book as a Blessed Virgin who was so full of Grace that God CHOSE Her to BE the Mother of His only-begotten Son...

Only Begotten...

By an earthly mother with a whole passel of kids???
OR...
Only Begotten of a Mother without a father
and of a Father without a mother...

Semper Fi, Bro'

Arsenios

I don't think Matthew 1:25 requires speculation, however.
 
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Arsenios

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I don't think Matthew 1:25 requires speculation, however.
That way of speaking is in use to this vary day and hour in the Middle East, where it is common for a person to say, for instance: "I swear I am telling you the truth. I have never lied to you. From the time we first met UNTIL this very minute, I have been only truthful with you." It is only in the West that one would take: "From the time we first met until now I have never lied to you," to mean: "I am now lieing to you."

Christ is recorded as saying: "From the time of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence, and the violent are siezing it by violence." Does this mean that AFTER that particular NOW the Kingdom of Heaven is no longere suffering violence etc??

Arsenios
 
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RDKirk

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That way of speaking is in use to this vary day and hour in the Middle East, where it is common for a person to say, for instance: "I swear I am telling you the truth. I have never lied to you. From the time we first met UNTIL this very minute, I have been only truthful with you." It is only in the West that one would take: "From the time we first met until now I have never lied to you," to mean: "I am now lieing to you."

Christ is recorded as saying: "From the time of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence, and the violent are siezing it by violence." Does this mean that AFTER that particular NOW the Kingdom of Heaven is no longere suffering violence etc??

Arsenios

Point taken.

Now, with regard to that verse, what it really means is that those people who were considered the underbelly of society were the ones who were most eagerly grasping the gospel, and they were "running with it like they stole it."
 
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Arsenios

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Point taken.

:oldthumbsup:

Now, with regard to that verse, what it really means is that those people who were considered the underbelly of society were the ones who were most eagerly grasping the gospel, and they were "running with it like they stole it."

I awaken at 3:06 myself...
AND...
Drive my very own very paid-for vehicle...

I think the verse has a more technically exegetical meaning, derived from its opening words "From the time of John the Baptist..." Because that clearly proclaims its onset - eg From the time of the incarnation of Christ... Yet God knows and Hebrews records that there were many OT Saints who themselves tried to subject the Kingdom of Heaven to force by their violence, "of whom the world was not worthy" as Paul writes of them and their personal faith there... Who walked the narrow and affliction laden path God laid out, and walked it unto death... And yet these were not receivers of the Promise, even though they were saturated with the Holy Spirit... Not until Christ came to them in Hades, having been foretold to them in Hades by John who came there just a little before Christ, John who was born but 6 months before Christ, who WAS before him...

Now the Gospel of Jesus Christ begins with the Command from God through the mouth of the Baptist:
"BE YE REPENTING/KEEP ON REPENTING"... The Bible records that we are to OBEY the Gospel. [ 2Thess. 1:8 and 1Peter 4:17 ] And Christ is recorded as commanding: "IF ANYone IS WILLING, AFTER ME TO BE FOLLOWING, LET HIM FIRST DENY HIMSELF. THEN LET HIM TAKE UP HIS OWN CROSS. AND then let him FOLLOW ME."

So consider the meaning of a cross - It is an instrument used by rulers to crush the enemies of their rule in such an horrific and shameful manner that by witnessing it the ruler's enemies will stop their opposition... It is an instrument of torture unto death... It is a means of utmost and prolongues and painful violence unto death... In Christianity, it becomes our means to put to death the Old Man of our fallen and death fearing and death ruled lives... It is the MEANS of our Salvation - Not exactly that by means of it we can save ourselves, even though that through it we do - eg we are saved BY Grace THROUGH the Faith of Christ which He discipled to His Disciples - But instead, it is salvation for us because the Kingdom of Heaven is now suffering Himself to be siezed [the Greek transliterates HARPOONED!] by the violent forcing themselves in repentance from the world from out of which they are called by God to be doing... That doing this God grants them entry INTO the Body of His Son by the Apostolic Baptism provided to us by His Servants within that Body - As Ananias did for Paul, the Apostle...

So yes, the lower you are, the greater is the Gift of Salvation and the more grateful the recipient, no question - None moreso, I should think, than myself, mind you - Which is why we have been co-confessing, each one of us, with Paul that we are the worst of sinners, in the very first rank...

But we are straying from the OP...

She did pose a great opening by asking if the Elder Joseph was a child molester, didn't she?

Not even fair, I say! :)

A great opening indeed!

I mean, it's not like the Bible records that they met at the beach one day in their mid-30's and fell for each other madly and passionately and couldn't wait to get married, mind you! :)

No, it was far, far, far indeed from anything remotely resembling THAT...

Arsenios
 
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Bob Carabbio

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NOTE: I wasn't sure where to put this. If this topic is too hot for this area, please move it to where it is appropriate.

A child bride is defined by the United Nations as any girl who is married before her 18th birthday.

What the "United Nations thinks or doesn't think is totally unimportant.

This long introduction brings me to the heart of this post.

The Proto-gospel of James states that Joseph was a widower when he married Mary, who was 12 at that time.

And it means absolutely NOTHING. But it does fit into the Catholic Visceral NEED to have their "Blessed Virgin" be eternally "virgin" and completely celibate.

The idea here is that it would have been wierd and unnatural and unthinkable for Joseph and Mary to not have sex if they are married.

Moreover if Mary and Joe NEVER had Sex, then they NEVER Joined flesh, and WERE NEVER MARRIED Period!!! (your answer will be something about "betrothal = marriage", which simply isn't true, except in a ceremonial sense). The ceremony in church called a "Wedding" is nothing more than the execution of a legally binding contract which forms a Corporation called a "Marriage" defining right tax benefits, access rights, and how to handle the dissolution of the Corporation, if the participants don't want to continue it. After the ritual, and the party, the couple then (if they did it properly) go somewhere private, and "MARRY ONE ANOTHER" through the joining of flesh. Given the moral decay in the U.S. they've probably ALREADY BEEN Married months or years before, and in some cases are already in multiple adultries.

My question to those Protestants is this: Do you think Joseph was a predator?

And you can ask that with a straight face??? Since you have NO IDEA about the relative ages of Joseph, and Mary, there's absolutely NO REAL BASIS to evaluate their relationship AT ALL!!!

The Bible says what it says and Catholics (to protect their "Blessed Virgin" Theology) interprets it one way. Protestants, for the most part, read it Plainly with normal understanding, and simply accept what it says, (along with all the other evidence of Joseph and Mary's natural family which catholics can't permit the existence of, and so have "Workarounds").

I realize this is a hard question, and your answer probably won't be short.

There's absolutely nothing "hard" about it unless you are bound to sell the "old man Joseph, and young Perpetually celibate Mary" Version. Protestants don't have that problem, or any "question" either.
 
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Bob Carabbio

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a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere.
Why?? Because of the "United Nations"??? Because of "Local Morals"?? My wife (in Massachusetts was 19 in '65 when we got married) and her Aunt Frances (in Mobile Alabama) was married at 14, and already had three kids in '65, She's STILL married to him.
 
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Arsenios

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But it does fit into the Catholic Visceral NEED
to have their "Blessed Virgin" be eternally "virgin"
and completely celibate.
Do you call the Mother of our Lord Blessed?
Are you a Christian?
Do you believe the Bible?

I mean, you sound bitter...

Arsenios
 
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Why?? Because of the "United Nations"??? Because of "Local Morals"?? My wife (in Massachusetts was 19 in '65 when we got married) and her Aunt Frances (in Mobile Alabama) was married at 14, and already had three kids in '65, She's STILL married to him.
Were you in Alabama pre-Civil Rights Movement?
Do you remember what it was like there?

Arsenios
 
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