Charles Finney, Altar Calls and Decisional Regeneration

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SeventhValley

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Just for some information Finney was a Presbyterian not a Baptist but Baptist grew because of him. He was not a great theologin he was a evangelist. He even admits his trouble in this area. He was one of the first evangelists to be heavily involved in the movement to end slavery and was professor and later president of Oberlin college the first American colleges to co-educate blacks and women with white men. He loved God and God used him.

Growth_of_Denominations_in_America_1780_to_1860.jpg
 
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JM

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Church growth isn't necessarily a good induction of church health and it has been stated before, 'what you win them with is what you win them to.' Unless you created that chart you need to site a source. Church ministers at the time thought Finney was doing more harm then good, his weak theology lead to what later theologians called 'burned over distincts' because Finney worked folks up into an emotional frenzy, got a profession of faith, then they fell away. The people were burnt from the false zeal and false humanistic teaching of Finney. Those that remained in mainline denominations welcomed the Liberalism of Germany and became nominal believers if there is such a thing.

Finney also admitted he lied to be ordained as a Presbyterian, he never believed in the Presbyterian Standards, he just wanted to be ordained. He claimed he never read the WCF but at his ordination he had to subscribe to it to be able to preach as a Presbyterian.

Charles Finney vs. The Westminster Confession - Michael S. Horton
 
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Church growth isn't necessarily a good induction of church health and it has been stated before, 'what you win them with is what you win them to.' Unless you created that chart you need to site a source. Church ministers at the time thought Finney was doing more harm then good, his weak theology lead to what later theologians called 'burned over distincts' because Finney worked folks up into an emotional frenzy, got a profession of faith, then they fell away. The people were burnt from the false zeal and false humanistic teaching of Finney. Those that remained in mainline denominations welcomed the Liberalism of Germany and became nominal believers if there is such a thing.

It depends on which theologians you are referring to. There was a major division in the USA Presbyterian Church over him, and many in the established church violently opposed him. You must remember that there are always two sides to a story, and unfortunately history is written from the standpoint of the particular views of the historian. If the historian is opposed to Finney, then his history will be negative about him. The best thing to do is to also read histories written by people who agree with his approach, as well as his own autobiography. Then you might get a more balanced view.

Finney also admitted he lied to be ordained as a Presbyterian, he never believed in the Presbyterian Standards, he just wanted to be ordained. He claimed he never read the WCF but at his ordination he had to subscribe to it to be able to preach as a Presbyterian.

My understanding of this is that he spent 12 months with a mentor who was to examine and evaluate his suitablility for Presbyterian ministry. It is said that Finney had many debates and arguments with his mentor over that 12 months, but he was ordained anyway. Obviously his mentor saw his potential, even though he might not have agreed with his theological views.

By his own admission, Finney was never an expert theologian. He was trained as a lawyer, and approached Christian doctrine as a lawyer, rather than a theologian. I have done a close study of his systematic theology, and I can see that he thought and wrote as a lawyer wanting to convince a "jury" with his views. He worked best as an evangelist.

I don't believe that he lied to anyone. All the accounts I have read is that he was open, honest and forthright with his views, and this attracted a lot of opposition and criticism of him. Finally, in frustration, he left the Presbyterian Church and continued his ministry with the Congregational Church.

Also, in the accounts I have read, the majority of his converts went on to become solid, long-term church members; which is a lot better than the 5-10% retention rate that most well-known evangelist get today.
 
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Roger Olson Arminian scholar dose not seem to like Finney either.

As an Arminian, I feel no need to apologize for this situation. Some trace it back to Charles Finney, the great evangelist of the Second Great Awakening. Calvinists especially like to categorize him as an Arminian, but I don’t claim him as a true Arminian. He did not believe in total depravity or the absolute necessity of supernatural prevenient grace. For him, prevenient grace (and thus God’s initiative) is in the reasonable appeal of the gospel to the intellect.
The situation is that most American Christian churches (including evangelical ones) are EITHER Calvinist or Semi-Pelagian by default. I say “by default” because it isn’t intentional; non-Calvinists simply haven’t been taught differently. The vast majority of Christians in America think these are the only two alternatives. If we Arminians have anything to apologize for, I guess it would be doing a poor job of getting our message out. But, then, we get all too little help from major organs of opinion-making such as Christian magazines.
I call Semi-Pelagianism the default theology of American Christianity. One of my main purposes for writing Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities was to correct those who think they are Arminian when they are really Semi-Pelagian. The other, of course, was to correct Calvinists who accuse Arminianism of being Semi-Pelagian.


American Christianity and Semi-Pelagianism

Here is some traditional Arminianism the The Five Articles of Remonstrance
  • Article I — That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ, his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ's sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John iii. 36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," and according to other passages of Scripture also.
  • Article II — That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption, and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins, except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John iii. 16: "God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"; and in the First Epistle of John ii. 2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
  • Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."
  • Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of an good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting, awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, in as much as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places.
  • Article V — That those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory, it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled, nor plucked out of Christ's hands, according to the word of Christ, John x. 28: "Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scriptures before they can teach it with the full persuasion of their minds.
Five Articles of Remonstrance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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My current study Molinism.

Molina’s doctrine is called scientia media, or middle knowledge, because it stands in the middle of the two traditional categories of divine epistemology as handed down by Aquinas, natural and free knowledge. It shares characteristics of each and, in the logical order of the divine deliberative process regarding creation, it follows natural knowledge but precedes free knowledge.
Natural knowledge is that part of God’s knowledge which He knows by His very nature or essence, and since His essence is necessary, so is that which is known through it. That is, the content of natural knowledge includes all metaphysically necessary truths. For example, the statement, “All bachelors are unmarried” is both necessary and part of natural knowledge. Other examples include other tautologies, mathematical certainties (e.g., 1+1=2), and all possibilities (since all possibilities are necessarily so). Natural knowledge can therefore be thought of as including a virtually infinite number of propositions of the form, It is possible that p, as well as a number of propositions of the form, It is the case that p. Thus, natural knowledge, properly conceived, is that part of God’s knowledge which could not have been different from what it is. It follows from this fact that the content of God’s natural knowledge is independent of His will; God has no control over the truth of the propositions He knows by natural knowledge. Consider, for example, the mathematical truth, 1+1=2. No matter what God wills, it will always be true that the concepts represented by the symbols 1, 2, +, and =, when arranged in a formulaic expression, one plus one equals two. It is important to note that, because natural knowledge is independent from God’s will and, to some extent, places limits upon the kinds of things God can do, natural knowledge informs(ed) God’s decision(s) regarding His creative work. This also means that natural knowledge is prevolitional.
Free knowledge is that part of God’s knowledge which He knows by His knowledge of His own will, both His desires and what He will, in fact, do. The content of this knowledge is made up of truths which refer to what actually exists (or has existed, or will exist). For example, the statement, “John Laing exists,” although certainly true, is dependent upon God’s choice to create me (or, more properly, to actualize a world where I am brought about), and hence, is part of God’s free knowledge. Free knowledge can therefore be thought of as including a number of propositions of the form, It is the case that p (Note that propositions of the forms, It was the case that p, and It will be the case that p, can be reduced to a proposition which refers to the present). Since free knowledge comes from God’s creative act of will, two things follow. First, the content of that knowledge is contingent; it could have been different from what it, in fact, is. That is, free knowledge includes only metaphysically contingent truths, or truths that could have been prevented by God if He chose to create different situations, different creatures, or to not create at all. Second, free knowledge is postvolitional; it is dependent upon God’s will.
As previously noted, middle knowledge is so named because it comes between natural and free knowledge in God’s deliberations regarding the creative process. According to the theory, middle knowledge is like natural knowledge in that it is prevolitional, or prior to God’s choice to create. This, of course, also means that the content of middle knowledge is true independent of God’s will and therefore, He has no control over it. Yet, it is not the same as natural knowledge because, like free knowledge, its content is contingent. The doctrine of middle knowledge proposes that God has knowledge of metaphysically necessary states of affairs via natural knowledge, of what He intends to do via free knowledge, and in addition, of what free creatures would do if they were instantiated (via middle knowledge). Thus, the content of middle knowledge is made up of truths which refer to what would be the case if various states of affairs were to obtain. For example, the statement, “If John Laing were given the opportunity to write an article on middle knowledge for the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, he would freely do so,” although true, is certainly not necessarily so. I could easily have refrained from writing, if I were so inclined (or too busy, etc.). Likewise, its truth does not seem to be dependent upon God’s will in the same way that “John Laing exists” is. Even if God chose to not create me, the statement regarding my writing the article could still be true. In fact, its truth does not seem to be dependent upon God’s will at all, but rather upon my will. One of the basic assumptions of the doctrine of middle knowledge outlined above is that God cannot will a creature to freely choose anything. Thus, the content of middle knowledge can be thought of as including a virtually infinite number of propositions of the form, If person, P, were in situation, S, then P would freely perform action, A (or P(S®A)).
The theory of middle knowledge presents a picture of divine omniscience which includes not only knowledge of the past, present and future, but also knowledge of conditional future contingents (propositions which refer to how free creatures will choose in various circumstances), counterfactuals (propositions which refer to how things would actually be if circumstances were different than they are or will be), and counterfactuals of creaturely freedom (propositions which refer to what a free creature would have chosen (freely) to do if things had been different). This knowledge, together with natural knowledge, informs God’s decision about what He will do with reference to creation.
One of the most useful concepts for the explanation and evaluation of middle knowledge is that of possible worlds. The basic belief that things could have been different is commonly described as belief in many possible worlds. Each complete set of possible states of affairs (or way things could be) is a possible world, and although there is an extremely large number of possible worlds, it is not infinite (some states of affairs are impossible), and only one is actual (the way things are).
In the contemporary discussion of possible worlds, two concepts have proven particularly instructive: actualization and similarity. In popular piety, it is not unusual to refer to God creating the world. However, in possible worlds semantics, this is seen as semantically improper. Instead, God’s creative activity should be referred to as creating the heavens and the Earth, but actualizing a particular possible world (since possible states of affairs do not have a beginning, which the language of creation implies). According to the doctrine of Molinism, God can actualize a world where His will is brought about by the free decisions of creatures, but in order to make this claim, contemporary Molinists have had to distinguish between strong and weak actualization. Strong actualization refers to the efforts of a being when it causally determines the occurrence of an event (e.g., God causes something to happen), while weak actualization refers to the contribution of a being to the occurrence of an event by placement of a free creature in circumstances in which he will freely cause the event. Weak actualization has proven to be a powerful tool for understanding the relationship between God’s providence and human freedom. However, it must be noted that it implies that there may be some states of affairs that God cannot weakly actualize, which leads to the further conclusion that there may be some possible worlds that God cannot actualize.
A more controversial aspect of modern Molinism has been the use of possible worlds in determining the truth of counterfactuals. According to possible worlds semantics, a counterfactual is true in the actual world if it is true in the possible (but not actual) world that is most similar to the actual world. Not all Molinists have accepted this approach, noting the difficulty in determining comparative similarity among possible worlds.-http://www.iep.utm.edu/middlekn/#SSH3b.iii
 
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I think this quote also should be said again. :)

Baptist believe you can be saved anywhere... it is a personal thing between you and God... And, it is easy.. you kneel as a sign of submission to God, you tell him you know you are a sinner and ask his forgiveness for your sins. You acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God , died for our sins, was raised again. if you are sincere and believe that God will forgive you...he will. You have to sincerely mean it. He will throw your sins as far as the east is from the west to remember them no more. That my friend, is forgiveness.-grandma dolittle
 
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SeventhValley

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I like this quote I just found from
Jonathan Edwards writes,
In efficacious grace we are not merely passive, nor yet does God do some and we do the rest. But God does all, and we do all. God produces all, we act all. For that is what produces, viz. our own acts. God is the only proper author and fountain; we only are the proper actors. We are in different respects, wholly passive and wholly active.

Jonathan Edwards Quotes

 
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JM

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Unless you created that chart you need to site a source. I would also like to see how Finney fits into that chart, if its just conjecture on your part or if there has been evidence that Finney was indeed 'good' for the church.
 
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JM

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If what Oscarr writes is true, what did Finney argue with his mentor about? He wrote, in his own words, that he never read the Westminster Confession. What did he argue about then? He was still ordained by the Presbyterians who have you confirm the WCF, he had to have done so...it is shady dealing all around by Finney.
 
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JM

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Also, in the accounts I have read, the majority of his converts went on to become solid, long-term church members; which is a lot better than the 5-10% retention rate that most well-known evangelist get today.

So, basically he taught bad doctrine but because his methods worked, not his preaching...we should adopt his methods?

:doh:
 
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From Finney's systematic theology which is anti-antimonian. IF you just read some of his theology where he fights against antimonianism I can see where some would come off with a bad opinon of him.

But from the bottom of the chapter on JUSTIFICATION

2. Our own works, or obedience to the law or to the gospel, are not the ground or foundation of our justification. That is, neither our faith, nor repentance, nor love, nor life, nor anything done by us or wrought in us, is the ground of our justification. These are conditions of our justification, in the sense of a “not without which,” but not the ground of it. We are justified upon condition of our faith, but not for our faith; upon condition of our repentance, love, obedience, perseverance to the end, but not for these things. These are the conditions, but not the reason, ground, or procuring cause of our justification. We cannot be justified without them, neither are we or can we be justified by them. None of these things must be omitted on pain of eternal damnation. Nor must they be put in the place of Christ, upon the same penalty. Faith is so much insisted on in the gospel as the sine quâ non of our justification, that some seem disposed, or at least to be in danger of substituting faith in the place of Christ; of making faith instead of Christ the Savior.

From Finney, our works do not save us but someone with no works is like the tree that dose not bear fruit. He actually dose a good job of talking about the paradox of the Christian faith.

Similar to John Edwards

"In efficacious grace we are not merely passive, nor yet does God do some and we do the rest. But God does all, and we do all. God produces all, we act all. For that is what produces, viz. our own acts. God is the only proper author and fountain; we only are the proper actors. We are in different respects, wholly passive and wholly active."

Seems that Finney was anti-antimonian.
 
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So, basically he taught bad doctrine but because his methods worked, not his preaching...we should adopt his methods?

:doh:

While possibly not on topic, is there anything wrong in your view with being theologically well grounded and being entertaining, I'm not thinking Driscoll here, more Chandler or White
 
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DeaconDean

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I will present videos on the legacy left to us by Charles G. Finney.

The opinions expressed herein, are not mine.

A History of C. G. Finney and Decisional Regneration (1of2) - YouTube

A History of C. G. Finney and Decisional Regneration (2of2) - YouTube

Salvation is the Work of MAN! - Charles Grandison Finney - YouTube

The Results of Charles Finney's "Theology" (Kielar) [1of2] - YouTube

The Dangers of Charles Finney's "Theology" (Kielar) [2of2] - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GE3e-TeM6k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRIhU6zh908

This opinion is, however, mine:

I guess the ends fit the means. Who cares how you get them to the altar, as long as it makes a conversion, real or not, whether they stay that way or not.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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I will present videos on the legacy left to us by Charles G. Finney.

This opinion is, however, mine:

I guess the ends fit the means. Who cares how you get them to the altar, as long as it makes a conversion, real or not, whether they stay that way or not.

God Bless

Till all are one.

O.k. what is the big deal with accepting Christ?

Mark 4:18-20

English Standard Version (ESV)

18 And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, 19 but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 20 But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”

Romans 14:17-19

English Standard Version (ESV)

17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

1 Timothy 1:15

English Standard Version (ESV)

15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

1 Peter 2:4-6

English Standard Version (ESV)

4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it stands in Scripture:
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Acts 26:19-21

English Standard Version (ESV)

19 “Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. 21 For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me.


Even if you ultimately believe it is all prdestened(Calvin) or fortold(Arminius) or both(Molinism); or that God rewards faith with regeneration (semi-Augustinian). It all works out to the same thing as far as our response to the word here and now on earth. Humans messed up, we need God to fix us, we need to repent and submit to Christ.
 
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DeaconDean

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O.k. what is the big deal with accepting Christ?

Nothing, it is the right thing to do.

But it should also be done because of the right reasons, not just to "pad" the church rolls like Finney was doing.

One of the last things Jesus instructed the disciples to do was to out into the world and "teach".

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" -Mt. 28:19 (KJV)

"poreuqenteV oun maqhteusate panta ta eqnh, baptizonteV autouV eiV to onoma tou patroV kai tou uiou kai tou agiou pneumatoV," -Mt. 28:19 (GNT)

"maqhteuw,v \{math-ayt-yoo'-o}
[SIZE=-1]1) to be a disciple of one 1a) to follow his precepts and instructions 2) to make a disciple 2a) to teach, instruct [/SIZE]"

Greek Lexicon

He was so worried about getting people to the altar, he forgot to teach, instruct, to actually make them disciples of Christ.

But what the hey, like you said, if 25,000 of his estimated 500,000 stay converted, the end fit the means right?

Get them to the altar by "hook-or-crook".

Just like Finney, get them to come up, make a confession, and after that, your on your own.

Sinners Bound To Change Their Own Hearts

Turly a man to be admired.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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