Charismatics Are At War With Each Other Over Failed Prophecies Of Trump Victory

[tturt]

Where are they on the scale "Despise not prophesyings." I Thess 5:20

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I reviewed the following threads

Fellowship - Chris Yoon
Controversial “Prophetess” doubles down on failed prophecies, insists Trump will remain president
Video: Christian YouTubers who Proclaimed False Prophecies that Donald Trump Would be Re-elected
Discussion - Prophecy videos about Trump will still be president

One comment that stood out was that "God came into her bedroom, angry and screaming that nothing can stop his plan to keep Trump in the White House."

Now putting aside the failed prophecy there, the character of the God described does not match the biblical one. Just by examining the character of God and the prophet, we should be able to tell something is off here. However, the fact stands that people continued to be fooled anyway - so this is on them for not recognizing a prophecy that describes a God, that isn't the creator.

These online prophets rely on people to spread the link of their video, or to be "trending" so people find it by accident. So the people who believed them are part of it too, I think it's important to acknowledge that if we're looking for constructive solutions.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Where are they on the scale "Despise not prophesyings." I Thess 5:20

I get the sense of despising not prophesyings also comes part and parcel with not wanting prophecy to be diminished to mere fortune telling or some other form of entertainment (Ezekiel 33:32-33). One might say this attitude is a reflection of a love of prophecy.

 

[tturt]

Some think every thing supernatural is demonic or every thing is Godly.

Some fortune tellers check out what God's prophets and prophesies are and use them.

 

[hislegacy]

Some think every thing supernatural is demonic or every thing is Godly.

Some fortune tellers check out what God's prophets and prophesies are and use them.

True and some have reduced the office of a Prophet to little more than fortune telling.

 

[hislegacy]

Did Jesus teach it or do it?
Did Paul teach it or do it?
Did John teach it or do it?
Did Peter teach it or do it?
Did James teach it or do it?
If something is being taught by a minister or being done in the church that none of the Five Great Spiritual Leaders of the New Testament taught or did, I am very careful about that and will check it out thoughtfully and thoroughly before I embrace it or endorse it.

 

[lismore]

Where are they on the scale "Despise not prophesyings." I Thess 5:20

Hello! Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil (1 Thessalonians 5:20-22).

IMHO the issue the church has is with the identification and rejection of evil. High profile 'prophets' and 'apostles' give very obvious false prophecies and false teachings again and again and nothing ever seems to be done about it.

Indeed when I was in AOG a 'prophet' picked me out of the congregation and gave a very obvious false prophecy to me, which the congregation knew to be false, the pastor indeed found it to be quite funny. This obvious false prophet was invited back again to speak the next year. There's no point in a 'test', if those who fail the test and those who pass are treated in the same manner. We can just put up a sign saying 'ear tickling not truth'. God Bless

 

[lismore]

* Spiritual gifts ( including the gift of prophecy..) are for today...(continuing)
-My stance/position.

Hello Pioneer. Good to meet you! I would agree. But I think the lack of testing and accountability in the church means that genuine prophecies are being submerged beneath a tidal wave of hooey. The lack of accountability is giving the impression that the church places a very low value on prophecy. God Bless

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Thank you. I've watched some of the clip but it's heavy going and filled with jargon- 'seven mountain mandate!?'. The transcript of the podcast must be longer than the book of Revelation. Perhaps some more fundamental questions need to be asked. They seem to be building prophetic words upon prophetic words. I agree that Jesus said his KIngdom is not of this world, so how does dominionist authority fit in with that? God Bless

Dominion over other people, non animals, is nonsense. Dominion gives us the right to kill, eat and euthanize. This theology is not really accepted. It was just an idea from a popular professor, I don't think people really follow this.

But the opposite is also nonsense, praying for atheist and lapsed Catholic and Baptist presidents to give us what we want and need. No, they legalize euthanasia, abortion, lapse support for Israel, take away our freedom of speech and thought and it may be that they make free health care full of moral compromises, health care that some people need parts of. And they are soft on international human and Christian rights. Persecution and limits on churches go on too much.

We need to pray and help along believing and loving senators. Also musicians, writers, producers, scientists and entrepreneurs. We need good business. Against the new slavery we need new rights and police work and education. And create peace with woke culture... We need kind sex education. Benevolent out looking on history.

I think the erring prophets once did get prophecy right. Some prophecies are errors. I recall about three partly right yet clearly wrong, and one completely wrong. And about sixty good ones. Also one contradiction.

The erring prophets wanted the abolition of abortion, and a Christian of sorts in power. They erred by being willful. They can learn from mistakes, be humbled and go on.

From a start in Sola Scriptura we need to be found by God and find footing like Abraham who did not have scripture, and get out of the boat and be led by the Spirit. We'll make mistakes, Abraham did. But scripture alone is not enough to prepare for Christ's return. He will return when the whole world has heard the Gospel, with a fine chance to repent. They need the anointing, and Jesus sacred blood and the free gift of salvation. They need to hear God and go where He wants to say what He wants, and love who He wants. Like CFAN and ICC.

A good president can open doors to evangelize nations like Turkey, Nigeria and Sudan, maybe North Korea.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think some people may not have been listening at all to the Lord when they said "Thus sayeth the Lord".

True. Saying "Thus says the Lord" is equivalent to proposing new Scripture, because when God speaks He speaks Scripture. But He only spoke that way through the Apostles of Christ and the last was the Apostle John.

True prophecy must always remind us of what God has already spoken to us through His prophets and Apostles in the Scriptures.

Also, prophets to the nation finished at the introduction of the New Covenant. Therefore modern prophets to the nation are false, dreaming up stuff from their own heads. The true prophets to our nations are those who are going into all the world and preaching the gospel of Christ, not some guy getting up and saying "Thus says the Lord" to the nation as if he is hearing new Scripture directly from the mouth of God.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

With God, all things are possible. He can do today what He did for Abraham the patriarch. God is no respecter of persons. Sola Scriptura is man made. The Bible is God and man made. It is safest to learn from it. It is not complete. Only the Spirit through the anointing and gifts can enable us to understand it over time.

Good on the prophets for trying and learning.

 

[ARBITER01]

True. Saying "Thus says the Lord" is equivalent to proposing new Scripture, because when God speaks He speaks Scripture. But He only spoke that way through the Apostles of Christ and the last was the Apostle John.

True prophecy must always remind us of what God has already spoken to us through His prophets and Apostles in the Scriptures.

Also, prophets to the nation finished at the introduction of the New Covenant. Therefore modern prophets to the nation are false, dreaming up stuff from their own heads. The true prophets to our nations are those who are going into all the world and preaching the gospel of Christ, not some guy getting up and saying "Thus says the Lord" to the nation as if he is hearing new Scripture directly from the mouth of God.

Oscarr,...... you've made fence laws for yourself in scripture.

The prophet office is no different from the OT one, it's just very, very rare. It comes with a hefty price, and it's the very reason why we don't see any. Everyone wants their McMinistry now.

Also,..prophesiers are not prophets.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Saying "Thus says the Lord" is equivalent to proposing new Scripture, because when God speaks He speaks Scripture.

Not sure this is a fact or not. Jesus spoke many things that were not in Scripture.

But He only spoke that way through the Apostles of Christ and the last was the Apostle John.

Again, not sure of that. I am sure there will be no new Scripture. I am not sure that God does not speak today as he has always spoken to his faithful.

True prophecy must always remind us of what God has already spoken to us through His prophets and Apostles in the Scriptures.

I don't mind that prophecy echos Scripture, rhymes with Scripture, hits hard like Scripture. But prophecy is saying something to a situation contemporary to the prophet. And so new ground may have to be broken in new times. Not anything contradicting Scripture by any means.

Also, prophets to the nation finished at the introduction of the New Covenant. Therefore modern prophets to the nation are false, dreaming up stuff from their own heads. The true prophets to our nations are those who are going into all the world and preaching the gospel of Christ, not some guy getting up and saying "Thus says the Lord" to the nation as if he is hearing new Scripture directly from the mouth of God.

Again, not sure of that.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr,...... you've made fence laws for yourself in scripture.

The prophet office is no different from the OT one, it's just very, very rare. It comes with a hefty price, and it's the very reason why we don't see any. Everyone wants their McMinistry now.

Also,..prophesiers are not prophets.

I thought carefully about this overnight. What I have concluded is that God has not stopped speaking to us and guiding us by the Holy Spirit within us.

I discovered that a hard and fast compliance with Scripture without the anointing of the indwelling spirit causes a cold religious spirit that can be unyielding and judgmental on those who don't comply with the "instruction manual".

What we need is for the Scripture and the Holy Spirit to work together. When I was not living according to God's standards during my storm and stress years, the Holy Spirit said to me, "You are not living according to God's standards are you?" Now, you won't find that in the text of Scripture, but I knew that was the Holy Spirit speaking to me. I replied, "No, I'm not. What do you want me to do about it?" He said, "Keep talking to me about it and we will work through it to get you back on track". And so I did, and circumstances changed to enable me to put things right and get back on track.

But if I had a voice in my head saying, "Leave your church and go and be a Jehovah's Witness and adopt their doctrines", I would know that it wasn't the Holy Spirit who was telling me that. How do I know the difference? It is because I know the Scriptures and know that the JW church is a cult and their doctrines are false. Also, the Holy Spirit is not going to tell me to go a burgle a house, shoplift, or beat someone up. Why? Because the Holy Spirit is not going to contradict things that God has already shown us in the Scriptures.

The Holy Spirit might give me a word of knowledge that an elder of my church is having an affair with the church secretary. Would that be the Holy Spirit? It might be and then it might not be and if I went and blurted out, "This is what the Lord has shown me..." I might destroy a marriage and divide the church. So what do I do? I ask the Lord for a word of wisdom to know how to approach the elder, and the Holy Spirit might tell me to encourage the elder that faithfulness to his family will result in God's blessing on his family and ministry. That way, I would know if the word of knowledge is from the Holy Spirit or not. If the elder breaks down and confesses his affair, then that would be confirmation that the word of knowledge did come from the Holy Spirit.

Although the content of the word of knowledge did not come from the pages of Scripture, it was in accordance with Scripture because it was wrong for a church elder to have an extra-marital affair with the church secretary.

It is the same with prophecy. The content of a prophecy may not directly echo the text of Scripture, but if it is in accordance with the spirit of Scripture, that it would be something that we know that Jesus would say, then we would know that it would have an impact on the listeners to draw them closer to Christ and strengthen their faith.

The thought that influenced me was that if God had been speaking to His saints from Adam right through to the Apostle John, the last Apostle, has He suddenly gone silent.

Francis Schaeffer wrote a book called, "God is there and He is not silent". This means to me that He has not stopped speaking. Old time prophets spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. The Apostles spoke and wrote as they were moved by the same Holy Spirit; so why not modern prophets, pastors, and teachers speaking and writing as they are moved by the Holy Spirit?

John Bunyan wrote "Pilgrims Progress" which after several centuries, remains the best selling book outside of the Bible. But apart from Scripture quotes, most of it does not come directly from the pages of the Bible, but he was inspired by the Holy Spirit regardless. The results show it in the number of people converted to Christ while reading the book.

I have had the constant experience of buying a Christian book and had the Holy Spirit speak through almost every page through the wisdom of the author. Even though the book was extra-Biblical, it was not non-Biblical. For me, the book was prophetic, and many modern prophecies come through the books of good Christian authors.

So, when we hear a prophecy, we can evaluate on the terms of whether it is extra-Biblical or non-Biblical. All prophecies given are extra-Biblical because they don't directly quote the Bible, but the questionable ones appear to be non-Biblical, and to be able to discern that one has to know what God has said in the Bible.

I wrote a book about how God speaks to me, and after hearing some teaching by John MacArthur about the absolute priority of the Written Scripture to guide us, I thought that my book might not be true and contained false teaching. But after realising that God can speak extra-Biblically, I felt better about my book, because nothing that the Holy Spirit said to me, shown in the pages of my book, were non-Biblical.

 

[lismore]

From a start in Sola Scriptura we need to be found by God and find footing like Abraham who did not have scripture, and get out of the boat and be led by the Spirit. We'll make mistakes, Abraham did. But scripture alone is not enough to prepare for Christ's return. He will return when the whole world has heard the Gospel, with a fine chance to repent. They need the anointing, and Jesus sacred blood and the free gift of salvation. They need to hear God and go where He wants to say what He wants, and love who He wants. Like CFAN and ICC.

A good president can open doors to evangelize nations like Turkey, Nigeria and Sudan, maybe North Korea.

Hello GoldenKingGaze! Thank you for your interesting post. I guess from my perspective, talking of dominion theology the issue summarized would be this. Just before the Lord returns (i.e now) what will the situation in the church and the world be like? Will there be dangerous times and times of apostasy, or times of 'revival', triumph and dominion of the church?

Those who have recently made false prophecies seem to be of the dominionist theology camp, Trump win, revival and triumph, a one hundred year plan for church increase and revival, the whole world and his brother will be saved. I just don't see this in the bible for the last days.

On the other hand the bible talks of terrible times in the last days, 2 Timothy 3. Jesus talked many times of false prophets and apostasy in the last days e.g Matthew 7:15, Matthew 24:24. He talked of a small gate and a narrow road to life and only a few would find it (Matthew 7:14).

Therefore in my view the false prophecies are based on a foundation of false theology, some of this is well-meaning but deluded, some is sadly a deception. God Bless

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not sure this is a fact or not. Jesus spoke many things that were not in Scripture.

Again, not sure of that. I am sure there will be no new Scripture. I am not sure that God does not speak today as he has always spoken to his faithful.

I don't mind that prophecy echos Scripture, rhymes with Scripture, hits hard like Scripture. But prophecy is saying something to a situation contemporary to the prophet. And so new ground may have to be broken in new times. Not anything contradicting Scripture by any means.

Again, not sure of that.

I have come to a different view of modern prophecy, and I think in a previous post on this thread made today, I explained my change of heart fairly well.

I have come to see that God did not stop speaking after the last Apostle died. He has continued, through the Holy Spirit, to speak to us extra-Biblically, ie: not giving exact quotes from the Bible. But He is not speaking non-Biblically, that is, what He says does not contradict what is already written in the Bible.

The "Spirit" speaking without taking account of what is already written in the Scriptures can open one to falsehood. Taking the Scriptures as the sole foundation without the involvement of the Holy Spirit would be a cold and clinical religiosity. But the voice of the Spirit in harmony with the written Scriptures brings a foundation of truth and blessing to us.

I have found Christian authors as genuinely prophetic as someone standing up in a service and giving a prophetic word. Prophets and authors are not rewriting the Bible nor are they adding information that is not already there in the Scriptures, but what they are saying and writing is in harmony with the Scriptures, even though they may be saying, "Your healing is coming through God's love and compassion for you." Or, "Do what is in your heart, because the Lord is with you and will smooth out the problems before you."

But the Holy Spirit will never say, "Jesus is not God, but just a created being just like the angels", because that is non-Biblical and is in disharmony with the Scriptures.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Hello GoldenKingGaze! Thank you for your interesting post. I guess from my perspective, talking of dominion theology the issue summarized would be this. Just before the Lord returns (i.e now) what will the situation in the church and the world be like? Will there be dangerous times and times of apostasy, or times of 'revival', triumph and dominion of the church?

Those who have recently made false prophecies seem to be of the dominionist theology camp, Trump win, revival and triumph, a one hundred year plan for church increase and revival, the whole world and his brother will be saved. I just don't see this in the bible for the last days.

On the other hand the bible talks of terrible times in the last days, 2 Timothy 3. Jesus talked many times of false prophets and apostasy in the last days e.g Matthew 7:15, Matthew 24:24. He talked of a small gate and a narrow road to life and only a few would find it (Matthew 7:14).

Therefore in my view the false prophecies are based on a foundation of false theology, some of this is well-meaning but deluded, some is sadly a deception. God Bless

I believe the scholars, from scripture hold that there must be a great world wide revival for all the world to have it's chance to repent, before Christ returns. It seems there will be a competing, mark of the beast. It is a great tragedy if unreached people do not have a chance to repent and not receive the mark of the beast. As it was at the time of Noah, few had a chance to repent, and so Jesus preached to them in the Earth.

God's love and justice, requires evangelism. He was sorry after the flood killed so many.

Before the is Christ's return, and before there be the great falling away mentioned I think by Paul the Apostle, there has to be a great ingathering from all nations. As in Revelation, a multitude, holding palm branches.

 

[lismore]

Before the is Christ's return, and before there be the great falling away mentioned I think by Paul the Apostle, there has to be a great ingathering from all nations. As in Revelation, a multitude, holding palm branches.

Hello GoldenKIngGaze. Thanks for your interesting post. I think what you have shared is different from Dominion Theology though. A great ingathering from all nations before the Lord returns is different from Christians speaking that they will rule over all nations before the Lord returns. Called out ones vs the whole world becoming 'Christian'. The false prophets we have seen have built their false prophecies on a foundation of false theology giving a different trajectory from what can be seen in the bible. God Bless

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Hello GoldenKIngGaze. Thanks for your interesting post. I think what you have shared is different from Dominion Theology though. A great ingathering from all nations before the Lord returns is different from Christians speaking that they will rule over all nations before the Lord returns. Called out ones vs the whole world becoming 'Christian'. The false prophets we have seen have built their false prophecies on a foundation of false theology giving a different trajectory from what can be seen in the bible. God Bless

I again, do not think people in Bethel and such really accept C Peter Wagner's ideals.

 

[ARBITER01]

Hello! Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil (1 Thessalonians 5:20-22).

IMHO the issue the church has is with the identification and rejection of evil. High profile 'prophets' and 'apostles' give very obvious false prophecies and false teachings again and again and nothing ever seems to be done about it.

Indeed when I was in AOG a 'prophet' picked me out of the congregation and gave a very obvious false prophecy to me, which the congregation knew to be false, the pastor indeed found it to be quite funny. This obvious false prophet was invited back again to speak the next year. There's no point in a 'test', if those who fail the test and those who pass are treated in the same manner. We can just put up a sign saying 'ear tickling not truth'. God Bless

It's sad, but we move on with GOD.

If people wish to be lied to, GOD will let them believe the lie.

At this point I don't believe there is anyway that people will be held accountable in a lot of churches. With that in mind, the only thing that I'm concerned about is how GOD is moving in my own church.