Chariot Wheels Found On The Bottom Of The Red Sea - The Exodus REALLY HAPPENED

[Radiata]

I did.

But here's the point, the OT is proven true by the new testament.

The Old Testament has been proven to be written before Christ. And the Gospels have been accurately proven to be a historical representation of Christ. He really did perform miracles, teach profound things, and die on a cross. The chances of someone fulfilling all these prophesies is zero. Therefore, those prophesies that came true later are a testament of it's authenticity.

 

[Glass*Soul]

I did.
The Old Testament has been proven to be written before Christ. And the Gospels have been accurately proven to be a historical representation of Christ. He really did perform miracles, teach profound things, and die on a cross. The chances of someone fulfilling all these prophesies is zero. Therefore, those prophesies that came true later are a testament of it's authenticity.

I think it quite likely that the writers of the gosples retrofitted their accounts of Christ's life to help them conform to passages in the old testament that resonated with how they perceived him. It's a simple explanation that requires no miracles, no stretch of the imagination, and no disrespect to Christ or the Old Testament.

In much the same way, the Exodus story is now being retrofitted by some to conform to the rather questionable discovery of these wheels. Human beings are such searchers for meaning and such writers of stories!

 

[VictimofChanges]

I did.

No, you did not.

And the Gospels have been accurately proven to be a historical representation of Christ.

Far from it. We know next to nothing about 'Jesus' from extra-biblical sources, and the Gospels themselves are hardly very illuminating about Jesus the man. I am not going down the route of saying "Jesus never existed", because I think it's totally possible, and probably likely, that the scripture is based on a real person. I'm just saying that they are far from an "accurate historical representation" of whoever he might have been.

He really did perform miracles, teach profound things, and die on a cross.

A rational person would surely need more than superstitious anecdotal evidence to substantiate this belief.

The chances of someone fulfilling all these prophesies is zero. Therefore, those prophesies that came true later are a testament of it's authenticity.

The chances of the "prophecies" being "fulfilled" are far from zero, for two reasons:

1) The majority of the prophecies are quite vague and resemble the ramblings of a Nostradamus.

2) THE GOSPEL WRITERS KNEW THE PROPHECIES! Indeed, they regularly quoted them to reinforce their case! So it is hardly surprising that their anecdotes and narratives appear to conform to them! This seems like the most obvious point ever to me, but Christians seem intent on extolling the "prophecies".

Let's just take one example. I forget the exact quote, but the issue of God saying "from out of Egypt I call my son". Let's simply apply the above two points:

1) This is HUGELY vague; one could invent a whole swathe of possible applications, especially as modern day Christians seem so quick to pick and choose between literal and metaphorical interpretations.

2) Isn't it more rational and plausible to suggest that the Gospel writers were well aware of this "prophecy", and took care to mention Jesus's supposed fulfillment? We therefore have Mary and Joseph fleeing to Egypt with the infant Christ to escape Herod's Massacre of the Innocents...

Then they later return, and Lo and Behold! Jesus was "called" from Egypt!

The whole issue seems even more ridiculous when you look into the Massacre of the Innocents explanation itself - this is not mentioned by any sources outside the Bible, even Josephus who discusses Herod's evils at length, and indeed Josephus puts Herod's death at around 4 BC if I remember rightly, which makes Biblical ground even more shakey.

~ ~

To be blunt my friend, if you can seriously make claims like this:

There isn't any evidence to speak of for anything 4000 years ago

Then on what credibility do you presume to venture into historical questions AT ALL?? This seems to me like pure and deliberate self-delusion.

 

[VictimofChanges]

I did.

No, you did not.

And the Gospels have been accurately proven to be a historical representation of Christ.

Far from it. We know next to nothing about 'Jesus' from extra-biblical sources, and the Gospels themselves are hardly very illuminating about Jesus the man. I am not going down the route of saying "Jesus never existed", because I think it's totally possible, and probably likely, that the scripture is based on a real person. I'm just saying that they are far from an "accurate historical representation" of whoever he might have been.

He really did perform miracles, teach profound things, and die on a cross.

A rational person would surely need more than superstitious anecdotal evidence to substantiate the miracles part. As for "teaching profound things" and "dying on the cross"... that makes him nothing more than an executed human teacher.

The chances of someone fulfilling all these prophesies is zero. Therefore, those prophesies that came true later are a testament of it's authenticity.

The chances of the "prophecies" being "fulfilled" are far from zero, for two reasons:

1) The majority of the prophecies are quite vague and resemble the ramblings of a Nostradamus.

2) THE GOSPEL WRITERS KNEW THE PROPHECIES! Indeed, they regularly quoted them to reinforce their case! So it is hardly surprising that their anecdotes and narratives appear to conform to them! This seems like the most obvious point in the world, but Christians seem intent on extolling the "prophecies".

Let's just take one example. I forget the exact quote, but the issue of God saying "from out of Egypt I call my son". Let's simply apply the above two points:

1) This is HUGELY vague; one could invent a whole swathe of possible applications, especially as modern day Christians seem so quick to pick and choose between literal and metaphorical interpretations.

2) Isn't it more rational and plausible to suggest that the Gospel writers were well aware of this "prophecy", and took care to mention Jesus's supposed fulfillment? We therefore have Mary and Joseph fleeing to Egypt with the infant Christ to escape Herod's Massacre of the Innocents...

Then they later return, and Lo and Behold! Jesus was "called" from Egypt!

The whole issue seems even more ridiculous when you look into the Massacre of the Innocents explanation itself - this is not mentioned by any sources outside the Bible, even Josephus who discusses Herod's evils at length, and indeed Josephus puts Herod's death at around 4 BC if I remember rightly, which makes Biblical ground even more shakey.

~ ~

To be blunt my friend, if you can seriously make claims like this:

There isn't any evidence to speak of for anything 4000 years ago

Then on what credibility do you presume to venture into historical issues AT ALL?? This seems to me like pure and deliberate self-delusion.

 

[Radiata]

Fact remains, Paul's letters and the Gospels were written shortly after the resurrection of Christ. They made radical claims of His divinity including being resurrected from the dead. The things written in the New Testament are not contested at all. All we see is people trying to stop the spread of Christianity. In later Jewish writings Jesus is called a sorcerer who led Israel astray which acknowledges that he really did work miracles, although the writers dispute the source of his power. If they had made false claims about Christ than there would be movements against what was written. And we don't see that. Jesus was killed in Jerusalem, right where the pentecost occurred. How can the disciples make unchallenged claims in the very place where He was killed and was seen by many if it didn't happen? In other words, Jesus did a lot of His ministry in Jerusalem, where the first outreach movement happened. Why wasn't there any opposition? It's because no one could. They preached the Gospel and no one could deny it because they were there to see it.

Here is a quote from Tacitus’s Annals. "Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, . . . but even in Rome" This confirms the rapid spread of Christianity as recorded in Acts 2, 4.

A historian has also recorded the very earthquake that started when Jesus died. Thallus wrote in 52 A.D. "On the whole world, there pressed a most fearful darkness, and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down." This shows extra-Biblical evidence that the earthquake would have been able to rip the temple curtain.

Governmental edicts recorded in the Bible have also been found in other ancient writings. Suetonius recorded that the Jews were removed from Rome during the reign of Claudius, as was also written in Acts 18http://mindprod.com/kjv/Acts/18.html#2:There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them.


The extra-Biblical information shows evidence that the Bible is true, yet that is not enough. All archaeological evidence that exists either does not contradict the Bible’s history, or fits well with it. Also, many extra-Biblical writers agree with the Bible’s teaching. This may seem like all that is needed to prove that the Bible is true, but more than that is necessary; it must be known to still be valid today. To know that it is still valid requires one more proof: That the Bible itself explains its Divine origin That can be proved too. Tell me something. How can 66 books written hundreds of years apart from one another, by dozens of authors, not contain a single error? It's just not possible unless it really is the inspired Word of God.

One last thing, the only thing you actually used to argue against Christianity was the bit about Herod. The rest is only speculation. Josephus says: He convened a meeting of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus, who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law and delivered them up to be stoned." You can imagine from his collaboration with the hated Romans, Josephus was extremely disliked by his fellow Jews. But he became very popular among Christians, because in his writings, he refers to Jesus. And for the record, here's what it says in "Case for Christ""Luke said the census that brought Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem was conducted when Quirinius was governing Syria and during the reign of Herod the Great. That poses a significant problem, I pointed out, because Herod died in 4BC and Quirinius didn't begin ruling Syria until 6AD, conducting the census soon after that. There's a big gap there; how can you deal with such a major discrepancy in the dates? McRay knew I was raising an issue that archaeologists have wrestled with for years. He responded by saying, "An eminent archaeologist named Jerry Vardaman has done a great deal of work in this regard. He has found a coin with the name of Quirinius on it in very small writing, or what we call 'micrographic' letters. This places him as proconsul of Syria and Cilicia from 11BC until after the death of Herod. I was confused. What does that mean? I asked. It means that there were apparently two Quiriniuses, it's not uncommon to have lots of people with the same Roman names, so there's no reason to doubt that there were two people by the name of Quiriniuses. The census would have taken place under the reign of the earlier Quirinius. Given the cycle of a census every fourteen years, that would work out quite well."

Others say that Quirinius served two times. No matter, because both cases puts him at the exact time as the bible says. I want you to show me any reason at all that the bible is invalid. It has stood up for 2000 years and no one has been able to prove it wrong.

 

[VictimofChanges]

Fact remains, Paul's letters and the Gospels were written shortly after the resurrection of Christ. They made radical claims of His divinity including being resurrected from the dead. The things written in the New Testament are not contested at all. All we see is people trying to stop the spread of Christianity. In later Jewish writings Jesus is called a sorcerer who led Israel astray which acknowledges that he really did work miracles, although the writers dispute the source of his power. If they had made false claims about Christ than there would be movements against what was written. And we don't see that. Jesus was killed in Jerusalem, right where the pentecost occurred. How can the disciples make unchallenged claims in the very place where He was killed and was seen by many if it didn't happen? In other words, Jesus did a lot of His ministry in Jerusalem, where the first outreach movement happened. Why wasn't there any opposition? It's because no one could. They preached the Gospel and no one could deny it because they were there to see it.

Here is a quote from Tacitus’s Annals. "Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, . . . but even in Rome" This confirms the rapid spread of Christianity as recorded in Acts 2, 4.

A historian has also recorded the very earthquake that started when Jesus died. Thallus wrote in 52 A.D. "On the whole world, there pressed a most fearful darkness, and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down." This shows extra-Biblical evidence that the earthquake would have been able to rip the temple curtain.

Governmental edicts recorded in the Bible have also been found in other ancient writings. Suetonius recorded that the Jews were removed from Rome during the reign of Claudius, as was also written in Acts 18:There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them.


The extra-Biblical information shows evidence that the Bible is true, yet that is not enough. All archaeological evidence that exists either does not contradict the Bible’s history, or fits well with it. Also, many extra-Biblical writers agree with the Bible’s teaching.

All of the above achieves nothing more than saying that various perfectly mundane issues can be supported in the Bible. Big Deal.

We are talking about the Exodus and the Red Sea Crossing - where is the extra-Biblical information? This chariot wheel???? Give me a break.

More importantly, I don't even care if the Exodus itself happened or not. This is meaningless to me.

One last thing, the only thing you actually used to argue against Christianity was the bit about Herod. The rest is only speculation. Josephus says: He convened a meeting of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus, who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law and delivered them up to be stoned." You can imagine from his collaboration with the hated Romans, Josephus was extremely disliked by his fellow Jews. But he became very popular among Christians, because in his writings, he refers to Jesus.

I don't think the Herod issue was the "only thing" I argued with, in fact it was simply one example of my general point that 1) most prophecies are vague and malleable, and 2) the Gospel writers KNEW them!

Points 1) and 2) were my argument - the whole Herod issue (which Strobel does his best to give an utterly partisan account of) was merely one example I happened to choose to illustrate my actual argument.

I want you to show me any reason at all that the bible is invalid. It has stood up for 2000 years and no one has been able to prove it wrong.

"Prove it wrong" in what regard? Are you simply speaking in historical terms? If you are, who cares if the Bible is accurate when it comes to settlements which have now been discovered?

If you mean its deeper spiritual message, then I'm afraid the burden of proof isn't on me to "prove it wrong".

 

[Radiata]

There is no way to prove that the red sea crossing happened. Why? there just haven't been any evidence found. I take it on faith because there are many other extrabiblical accounts that support scripture in many other aspects. Besides, when you believe in an all-powerful entity, it's easy to believe that it happened. Plus, if you look at the topography of the Red Sea, you will see a sort of land bridge about 200 ft. below surface level. On either side of it, it drops over a thousand feet. This land bridge is at exactly the same spot that historians believe the Israelites crossed over. The slope is actually within the maximum angle for handicapped people in wheelchairs.

And yes, the Herod thing was the only thing that you actually used to argue against me. The rest was your own speculation. "They could have altered the biography of Jesus to fit the prophesies, etc." But what you're forgetting is that the New Testament writers had nothing to gain, and everything to lose. Indeed, Peter was cricified upsidedown in 70AD, as is recorded in secular history. And did you know that there was a prophesy for that too? Paul was sent to prison, and He kept writing while in prison until he was killed in 63AD. And John was sent in exile to the isle of Patmos because he wouldn't stop preaching the Gospel. If they wanted to write a biography of Christ (Gospel) they would kept themselves safe by makeing it seem like He was nothing special. So where's their motives? There is no motive at all to write a fiction tale about Jesus, and they were killed for it.

As I have said, 66 books with forty some authers written over hundreds of years and not a single error? Tell me how that is possible with it not being the inspired word of God? And I'll tell you, that they really didn't know the prophesies. Matthew was a Tax collecter so he wouldn't know. Luke was a gentile historian and physician, so it's not likely that he would have studied the scriptures of a forign religion. Paul was a pharesee, so he knew them well, but he didn't write about the fulfillment of prophesies. He only stressed on the importance of the sacrifice of Christ, and it's gift that it is for us. Victim, you have only given me excueses and I have provided you with evidence. Circumstantial evidence, historical evidence, collobrating evidence, showing you the reliability of the New testament. I want you to show me any argument against it that ISN'T your own personal desire to not believe in a god.

Let's prove the Bible is true and we are nearing the end of the last generation before Christ returns.

1. The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again after a long time and at a time the Bible calls the "latter days"-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3; Ezek 38:8. Against what appeared to be impossible odds, this prophecy has been fulfilled. It happened as predicted on May 14, 1948 after about 2500 years. That’s 1 out of 1.
Note: Israel was destroyed in approximately 721 B.C. and Judah about 135 years later. Since that time, approximately fourteen different peoples have possessed the land of Israel. Yet as the Bible said, the nation of Israel would be reborn.
The rebirth of Israel was a key sign, indicating we had entered a time period called the "latter days." It was the beginning of a countdown leading to the Tribulation and culminating with the Battle of Armageddon and the return of Jesus. Along with the fulfillment of this crucial event are over 360 prophecies that would all come together, so we might recognize that the Tribulation is very close at hand. Some of these are listed here.
Yet the Bible foretells that most people would not believe these things, despite the overwhelming evidence of the signs from God’s Word being fulfilled exactly as predicted. As people refused to believe the flood was coming in Noah’s time, so people today willingly choose to disregard the signs of the times.

2. Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2.
Note: On Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the U.N. approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. On the morning of May 14, 1948 (the last day of the British mandate), a meeting of the People’s Council took place in Israel to decide on the name of the state and to finalize the declaration. At precisely 4 pm, the proclamation ceremony began at the Tel Aviv museum. The 979 Hebrew words of the Scroll of Independence were read. All stood, and the scroll was adopted. The notorious White Paper, issued by the British in 1930 restricting Jewish immigration, was declared null and void. Members of the People’s Council signed the proclamation. David Ben-Gurion rapped his gavel, declaring, "The State of Israel is established. This meeting is ended." Israel was brought forth as a nation in one day, at once, exactly as predicted. At midnight, the British soldiers and high commissioner would leave. President Truman was swift in announcing U.S. recognition of Israel. The following morning, on May 15, Israel was under attack by the Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese, Jordanian, and Iraqi forces.

3. Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) "out of the nations"-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3.
Note: As previously stated, on Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the "United Nations" approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. This prophecy was perfectly fulfilled. Consider, for centuries the land of Israel had been occupied by many nations. Israel was "brought forth out of the nations"—the children of Israel from many nations have been returning to their ancient homeland.

4. Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19. This happened just as predicted in 1967. That’s 4 out of 4.
Note: The Bible gives us two methods so we would know the time we are in. One is by Israel’s rebirth. The other, by a precise line of events that would all come together at one time. Israel was reborn on May 14th, 1948. The Bible indicates that from Israel’s rebirth a generation would not pass till all be fulfilled. We are not setting any date; however, it seems clear from Israel’s rebirth and the signs of the times— that we are living in the generation in which the Rapture and Tribulation will come and catch most people by surprise. Are you ready?

5. The Christian church at the time of the end would be lukewarm, neither cold nor hot for Jesus. Prophecy fulfilled. That’s 5 out of 5.
Note: God will spew them out. Many ministers and people that call themselves a Christian will not be going to heaven. The Bible tells us—you have acquired wealth, but your true condition is wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked and you don’t know it-Rev 3:14-22. This is today’s church. Most preachers use little scr i pture, but lots of worldly stories. Many sing a great deal, but put little emphasis on repentance, obeying, serving, and fearing God, on the fruits of the Spirit, Bible prophecy, water baptism by immersion, and studying your Bible faithfully every day. Many are only entertainment centers that teach what their members want to hear. Many (so-called Christians) are so lukewarm or dead, they don’t even bring their Bibles with them to the house of God. Some famous ministers and Bible schools think this is the best church age ever, yet the Bible clearly shows it is the worst and most deceived.

6.The Bible gives us over 50 descr i ptions about the people at the time of the end. These fit the
people of today perfectly, but did not fit the people of fifty years ago. Here are some:

A. Some would depart from the faith and go into devil worship-1 Tim 4:1. This is perfect.

B. People would mock about the last days and not believe-2 Pe 3:3; Jude 18.

C. People would become lovers of themselves-2 Tim 3:1,2. Remember the TV commercials—"I do it for me"?

D. People would be disobeying their parents-2 Tim 3:1,2.

E. People would be grateful for nothing-2 Tim 3:1,2.

F. Homosexuality would increase-Lk 17:28,30; ref Gen 19:5; Ro 1:24,26,27.

G. People would be without self-control in sex-2 Tim 3:1,2,6; Rev 9:21, Lk 17:28,30; Jude 7. Is this not the great sex generation?

H. People would love pleasures more than God-2 Tim 3:1,2,4. This is true. Shall we go on a picnic, watch football, or sleep. Church?—we can go another time. Our American motto "In God we trust" has become a joke. Remember, these were all predicted centuries ago as part of the signs that we are at the time of the end.

I. People would be taking drugs-Rev 9:21. The Greek word for sorceries, in Rev 9:21, means pharmaceuticals or drugs. God’s Word is 100% right on every one. That’s 6 out of 6. How could you have any doubts at this point?
Note: Fifty years ago, many people seldom locked their doors at night. There was little or no profanity on television, radio, or in the movies. One of the biggest problems in public school was gum chewing. Those days are long gone.

7. There would be weapons that could destroy the world-Mk 13:20; Rev 6:8; Rev 9:18; Zech 14:8,12. Incredibly, this prophecy was written in the days of spears and arrows, yet today it is true. That’s 7 out of 7.
Note: It is estimated that the combined nuclear arsenals of the USA and Russia (as of the year 2002) could kill every living thing on earth 6 times over.

8. The Gospel must be published in all the world-Mk 13:10. This seemingly impossible prophecy was written when there was no printing press, but today it is true. That's 8 out of 8.
Note: In this last generation, to our knowledge, the Gospel is being published (or is about to be published) in the primary language of every nation of the world or "among all nations." In addition, the Gospel is available by short-wave radio nearly everywhere in the world.

9. In the "latter days" when Israel was once again a nation, there would be a great military power to the extreme north of Israel in the land of Magog (which is modern-day Russia)-Ezek 38:2-4,8,15,16. Incredible. That’s 9 out of 9.
Note: How could the Bible have foretold the location of this nation, facts about its military, and even the time period it would come to pass? As was already said in Lk 24:25-O FOOLS, AND SLOW OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN.

10. There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth. This nation would have an army of 200 million. This is astounding. How could the Bible have told the location of a nation and given such a huge figure regarding the size of its army nearly 2000 years ago? China has boasted that they could field an army of this exact figure. That’s 10 out of 10.

11. There would be an economic alliance of the nations of the Old Roman Empire. It would have a military capability. This is an exact descr i ption of the European Economic Community today (the EEC), which has already adopted the one-currency system for many of their member nations. It is written, IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS (these nations, which is now) SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM-Dan 2:44. That’s 11 out of 11. We have just reached the point that seemed impossible—11 perfect predictions made thousands of years ago—with God nothing is impossible. Certainly, at this point, even the biggest skeptic should see the Bible is true, there is a God, and we are nearing the time of the end.

About 22 prophecies in 11 sets have been given, all perfect and all written centuries ago. The chance that any person could do this 2000 years into the future is not possible. The Bible is the Word of God, and we have just proved it. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Repent and get baptized by full immersion. Read and obey the Gospel. God loves you. He is not willing that any should perish, yet many do. The Rapture is close. Most people are not ready and will not be taken. However, "YOU" cannot say you did not know. Know and understand, Mt 16:26-WHAT IS A MAN PROFITED, IF HE SHALL GAIN THE WHOLE WORLD, AND LOSE HIS OWN SOUL? OR WHAT SHALL A MAN GIVE IN EXCHANGE FOR HIS SOUL? (Note: The Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy has the complete list of 365 prophecies.)

 

[VictimofChanges]

If you are convinced by those ridiculous 11 points, I'm not at all surprised that you also consider this "chariot wheel" to be Exodus evidence.

 

[Radiata]

If you are not convinced that many more than 11 prophesies have been fulfilled that were written thousands of years ago, you don't understand the unlikelihood and impossibility that it is to make them from mere guessing. Like mentioned above, the encyclopedia of Bible Prophesy has a complete list of 365 prophesies.

Besides, it was only after I came to the faith that I found out these prophesies. I actually fully became a Christian after I saw an indisputable miracle. I have a testimony of it linked in my home page. It was the visible supernatural that brought me to know Christ. Perhaps if that is the only thing that can convince you, you should ask for a miracle in your life. It took me years of searching, but God responded when I didn't think He would.

 

[Glass*Soul]

Radiata: I was going to encourage you to cite your sources for those 11 prophecies, but they're all over the net. I'm not sure how we would figure out who wrote the original version.

Most of them are so general and endlessly typical of human nature that they hardly qualify as falsifiable. They're even more general than "earthquakes in divers places." (An earthquake occurs somewhere, hundreds of time a day.) And "wars and rumors or wars." (“…approximately 90-95% of known societies engaged in at least occasional warfare, and many [fight] constantly.) When we begin talking about things like sex, drug use, self-centeredness and general naughtiness the rate of occurrence becomes astronomically high. What's particularly amazing about prophesying something that happens continually?

The odds of most of your 11 "prophecies" occurring is 100%.

 

[Radiata]

Radiata: I was going to encourage you to cite your sources for those 11 prophecies, but they're all over the net. I'm not sure how we would figure out who wrote the original version.

Most of them are so general and endlessly typical of human nature that they hardly qualify as falsifiable. They're even more general than "earthquakes in divers places." (An earthquake occurs somewhere, hundreds of time a day.) And "wars and rumors or wars." (“…approximately 90-95% of known societies engaged in at least occasional warfare, and many [fight] constantly.) When we begin talking about things like sex, drug use, self-centeredness and general naughtiness the rate of occurrence becomes astronomically high. What's particularly amazing about prophesying something that happens continually?

The odds of most of your 11 "prophecies" occurring is 100%.

There will be wars. More people have died because of war this century than any other.

Homosexuality will roam the streets. The gay prade marches down Israel's roads every year. This from a time where it was scorned and taboo.

The Roman empire will be rebuilt. That's what the European alliance is.

Weapons that can destroy the world? Ok, fine, that one might have been easy enough to predict.

Earthquakes. All logic states that we should be seeing fewer earthquakes. But instead, they keep increasing drastically.

There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth. This nation would have an army of 200 million. This is astounding. How could the Bible have told the location of a nation and given such a huge figure regarding the size of its army nearly 2000 years ago? China has boasted that they could field an army of this exact figure. At the time, the world population was probably around that size.

Fact remains that anyone could make a single prophesy that will undoubtedly come true. But no one can make hundreds and have abolutely every last one of them come true. Indeed they were actually done by many people over hundreds of years. That can't happen unless they knew beforehand what would happen.

 

[VictimofChanges]

There will be wars. More people have died because of war this century than any other.

Like so many other examples, you are adding your own angle to this to make it fit! The prophecy doesn't say "in the century with more deaths in war than any other", you are simply making circumstances fit your feeble prophecy. Wars have been constant throughout human history - how is it miraculous to predict future wars?

The Roman empire will be rebuilt. That's what the European alliance is.

A prime example of how pathetically vague you are willing to be. The European "alliance" (presumably the EU) has no claim whatsoever to resemble the Roman Empire, except that it is IN EUROPE!! It is not governed from Rome, it does not have an Emperor, it does not have a shared citizenship, it encorporates a lot of territories never held by the Roman Empire, and does NOT incorporate lots of territories that were.

You have to admit, if you were not trying to prove your case so badly, this one would be hilarious.

Earthquakes. All logic states that we should be seeing fewer earthquakes. But instead, they keep increasing drastically.

How on earth does "all logic" state that we should have fewer earthquakes?

Also, what the hell are you basing the idea that they are "drastically increasing" upon?

There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth. This nation would have an army of 200 million. This is astounding. How could the Bible have told the location of a nation and given such a huge figure regarding the size of its army nearly 2000 years ago? China has boasted that they could field an army of this exact figure. At the time, the world population was probably around that size.

Firstly, "to the far east" allows for potentially any asian or australasian country imaginable. Not a good start.

Secondly, China's People's Liberation Army numbers approximately 7 million in total, with a standing army of around 2.3 million. These figures are dwarfed by the ridiculous bible prediction.


In conclusion, if someone wants something to be true so badly, they will be prepared to delude or satisfy themselves with amazingly shoddy evidence or rationalism. You are a clear example of this.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Boy, there ought to be hundreds of chariot wheels in the vicinity of the one found by Wyatt.

BTW, what museum can I go to in order to see this chariot wheel?

 

[Caduceus]

Here is the link to an article with pictures of chariot wheels on the bottom of the Red Sea:

http://bibleprobe.com/exodus.htm

For those too lazy to read the article, just scroll down and look at the pictures.

I wonder what the skeptics are going to say now?:

"Everyone knows chariots race through there all the time!"

"Christians planted those.....it is part of their grand master plan to rule the world!"

"Those wheels evolved there naturally!"

The reality is that if you take an unbiased look at the evidence, there is only one faith that stands the test:

Christianity

http://foru.ms/t6269602-honest-skep...e-of-the-basic-evidence-for-christianity.html

Why Christianity? The ancient Israelites weren't Christians.


What is REALLY interesting about the alleged Exodus and the wandering in the wilderness for 40 years or so is why, having apparently been exiled from Egypt, the Israelites ended up in Canaan which at the time of this alleged Exodus was ruled by..........Egypt!

Seems an awful waste of time and energy.

 

[Radiata]

Hmm, While looking at my maps in my study bible, it doesn't show Canaan ruled by Egypt.

 

[Maverick3000]

Hmm, While looking at my maps in my study bible, it doesn't show Canaan ruled by Egypt.

The Egyptian Empire went through Canaan, and south-eastern part of Anatolia from the 16th-11th century BCE. If you believe Exodus took place in the 15th century BCEish then they would be wandering around the Egyptian empire.

 

[Steve Petersen]

18th Dynasty.

Pharoah's and Kings by David Rohl.

Several years ago he proposed a New Chronology for Egypt based on archaelogical data. He shows that the 21st and 22d dynasties were concurrent rather than consecutive which lops off a couple centuries from traditional assumptions.

 

[Korah]

18th Dynasty.
Pharoah's and Kings by David Rohl.
Several years ago he proposed a New Chronology for Egypt based on archaelogical data. He shows that the 21st and 22d dynasties were concurrent rather than consecutive which lops off a couple centuries from traditional assumptions.

David Rohl's book is indeed very good. It's very controversial to try to recalibrate Egyptian chronology, however. By doing it we do get a good fit between Bible chronology and the archaeological evidence. I like Rohl because he is not a Fundamentalist. If Rohl is right, he proves the Bible is sound, but not by a literal interpretation. The numbers of the Israelites in the Wilderness would have to be much reduced.
However, this thread is about Lennert Mohler's update of Ron Wyatt's archaeology. The chariot wheel evidence allows for the enormous Bible number of people in the Exodus. He allows for Fundamentalists to be right, which I don't like. For Wyatt and Mohler the traditional Mt. Sinai and place of crossing the Red Sea have to be jettisoned. The chariot wheels are not in the Red Sea proper, but half way up the Gulf of Aqaba, where there is indeed an underwater bridge where the water is shallow.
Wonderful, two proofs of the Bible. Only problem is, they are mutually irreconcilable. Not to worry, however, there are yet other interpretations of Mt. Sinai and the Crossing that allow the Bible to be true. Jacobovici the "Naked Archaeologist" has his own.
As I said, I like Rohl, but I have to admit that in spite of getting a lot of attention, he hasn't gotten much acceptance. That leaves the chariot wheels as the best evidence that the Exodus really happened as the Bible portrays.
Korah

 

[Steve Petersen]

Pretty shaky evicence. No provenence, no peer reviewed data.

Wyatt isn't even an archaeologist; no credentials. He was a nurse-anesthetist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Wyatt

 

[Korah]

Pretty shaky evidence. No provenence, no peer reviewed data.
Wyatt isn't even an archaeologist; no credentials. He was a nurse-anesthetist.

(I had to delete your link to Wiki--I'm still three posts short of the magic 50; the all-knowing system here can't tell your post from mine.)
So we're not talking about David Rohl now.
You're talking about Ron Wyatt. Ron Wyatt is dead. His research and theory have been picked up, as I said, by Dr. Lennart Mohler, including new explorations in the Gulf of Aqaba in the 21st Century. I saw the video on TV (History, Discovery, or TLC). Very impressive. I bought it. I also bought the book. Very impressive pictures of coral-encrusted chariot wheels found at that shallow bridge at the half-way point. (Can't find them at the moment. I could look harder if you're really open to learning anything.)
And if Mohler is wrong, there's Rohl, with his consummate genius (whether he's right or wrong on dates), my preference.
Korah