Chaos Headed for Minnesota Classrooms

[Ana the Ist]

Sigh...here we go again...

Undisciplined: Chaos may be coming to Minnesota classrooms, by decree

Here, in essence, is MDHR’s position: The primary cause of racial discipline gaps in schools is racist teachers and discipline policies, not differing rates of student misconduct. Schools must move to end these statistical group disparities. If administrators don’t agree to change their practices in ways that reduce black and Native American discipline rates, according to MinnPost, “Lindsey says the state will initiate litigation.”

So, some may remember a little while back a thread about the problems in St Paul's school systems. The short version is that Minnesota liberals jumped headfirst into the whole "If there's a discrepancy between outcomes for whites and blacks, it must be racism, implicit bias, white privilege, etc" narrative the left has been pushing really hard for the past 5+years. So when they saw that black schoolchildren were being disciplined at a much higher rate than whites....they blamed the teachers. They must be racists....or at least they must be implicitly racist.

You all know how it works...it's the same narrative used to blame police for traffic stops, judges for sentences, employers for "diversity"..And so on. So the solution was to spend a bunch of money making the teachers less racist (never mind that those programs really don't work, and definitely never mind research showing internal biases don't necessarily translate to actual behavior....we have racism to fight!)...And when that didn't work, the next solution was to rewrite policy so that teachers couldn't really discipline the students anymore. If you think that's extraordinarily stupid...you're right.

The result was that violence and chaos erupted in St Paul's schools, as problem students were facing far fewer consequences. Teachers lost control of their classrooms...and in some cases became victims of violence themselves. Learning dropped like a sack of dirt...and in the end, an even higher percentage of black students ended up getting suspended and expelled (eventually their behavior became so egregious measures had to be taken...even at the risk of being called racist).

So...what did the liberals in Minnesota learn from all this? Did they learn that there's some things you can show with a sociological study and some things you can't ? Did they learn that jumping to the conclusion that racism is the cause of every negative outcome blacks have is lazy thinking? Did they at least apologize to the teachers and tell them they were wrong?

Nope. They decided to try to implement the same plans for the rest of Minnesota's schools. Apparently, they intend to double down on stupid.

Any thoughts?

 

[Kentonio]

it's the same narrative used to blame police for traffic stops, judges for sentences, employers for "diversity"..And so on.

So you're saying they're completely correct and approaching the problem in the right way?

Are you aware they did a study once about the likelihood of prospective employees getting to the interview stage? They applied for vast numbers of jobs with basically identical CV's with the only material difference being that with some they used traditionally white names and some with names common only in black communities. The applications made with white sounding names had a considerably higher success rate. The only difference was the name.

 

[grasping the after wind]

If one simply assumes that one is right, no matter the mountain of evidence that proves one is mistaken, one will always be asssured one is right and any protests against one's position are surely caused by the malevolent ulterior motives of the protesting party.

 

[Ana the Ist]

So you're saying they're completely correct and approaching the problem in the right way?

Are you aware they did a study once about the likelihood of prospective employees getting to the interview stage? They applied for vast numbers of jobs with basically identical CV's with the only material difference being that with some they used traditionally white names and some with names common only in black communities. The applications made with white sounding names had a considerably higher success rate. The only difference was the name.

Oh I've seen the study...did you see the one where they used uncommon and difficult to pronounce white names like zybrowski and cuievan?

 

[Kentonio]

Oh I've seen the study...did you see the one where they used uncommon and difficult to pronounce white names like zybrowski and cuievan?

Nope, do you have a link please?

 

[timewerx]

Install CCTVs in every corner but the restrooms.

That should get them hard evidence of what is really happening.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Install CCTVs in every corner but the restrooms.

That should get them hard evidence of what is really happening.

Evidence is not needed when one has made up one's mind that one's assumptions are unchallengeable.

 

[Tanj]

S
So, some may remember a little while back a thread about the problems in St Paul's school systems.

Nope, no memory at all, problematic searching for "st Paul" on a Christian website, and nothing in google.

So link please.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Nope, no memory at all, problematic searching for "st Paul" on a Christian website, and nothing in google.

So link please.

How about searching for "problems in St. Paul school district"?

 

[Tanj]

How about searching for "problems in St. Paul school district"?

Apparently they had a storm recently.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Nope, do you have a link please?

Don't need one to make the point...

You see, without actually looking at the results of a study like that, you've got no way of knowing if the issue is racism or just familiarity.

That is, if it were an issue at all...which it isn't. There was a 30 year study looking at whether "black sounding" names had any impact on a person's financial success over their lifetime. The result was no...they don't.

To be honest kent...I've explained these things to several posters many times over. I understand that when you look at a study and see that black men get 15% longer sentences on average, or black kids get disciplined at a higher rate, that you automatically think that it must be because of racism....but those are just lazy narrative driven conclusions. You simply can't prove such a thing so easily.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Nope, no memory at all, problematic searching for "st Paul" on a Christian website, and nothing in google.

So link please.

Well judging from your fairly recent membership, I'm not surprised.

Here's an old story on the topic...not sure if it's the same one from the old thread.

http://thefederalist.com/2016/07/29...pline-quotas-create-chaos-in-st-paul-schools/

 

[Tanj]

thefederalist

Lol, that explains that. Thanks for the info.

 

[Kentonio]

Don't need one to make the point...

You see, without actually looking at the results of a study like that, you've got no way of knowing if the issue is racism or just familiarity.

That is, if it were an issue at all...which it isn't. There was a 30 year study looking at whether "black sounding" names had any impact on a person's financial success over their lifetime. The result was no...they don't.

To be honest kent...I've explained these things to several posters many times over. I understand that when you look at a study and see that black men get 15% longer sentences on average, or black kids get disciplined at a higher rate, that you automatically think that it must be because of racism....but those are just lazy narrative driven conclusions. You simply can't prove such a thing so easily.

Your entire position appears to be 'It's not racism because I don't want it to be'. You're setting a standard of proof that is basically unachievable. With that in mind there seems little point in me trying to convince you.

 

[rjs330]

Your entire position appears to be 'It's not racism because I don't want it to be'. You're setting a standard of proof that is basically unachievable. With that in mind there seems little point in me trying to convince you.

Do you believe that it is automatically racism in this case?

 

[Landon Caeli]

The more the left convinces black people that they are forever the victim, the more they will isolate and segregate themselves from the mainstream American culture.

...To rise out of this mental rut, they need positive energy.

 

[Landon Caeli]

The left should focus on the successes and victories, and celebrate those things for the good of those they claim to care for. Convincing black people that they're forever doomed does seem to do well in capturing their vote though.

...Don't believe the hype.

 

[Halbhh]

Evidence is not needed when one has made up their mind that one's assumptions are unchallengeable.

Yes. While confirmation bias is the natural function of the brain -- it tries to quickly process new things efficiently according to what it expects, because this quick efficiency is usually for the best in many things -- the most balanced good mental attitude is to temper our natural confirmation bias with a willingness, even a special attention, to notice what doesn't fit the expectation, and keep awareness of that instead of ignoring it. To investigate, or to be open to learning. To be curious in the good way that a child is.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Yes. While confirmation bias is the natural function of the brain -- it tries to quickly process new things efficiently according to what it expects, because this quick efficiency is usually for the best in many things -- the most balanced good mental attitude is to temper our natural confirmation bias with a willingness, even a special attention, to notice what doesn't fit the expectation, and keep awareness of that instead of ignoring it. To investigate, or to be open to learning. To be curious in the good way that a child is.

I actually think children are as guilty of confirmation bias as the rest of us if not more so. At least when I listen to my grandchildren 3 and 4 years old it surely seems that way. If you cite an alternative to that which they are used to hearing they balk at it and refuse to accept the possibility.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Your entire position appears to be 'It's not racism because I don't want it to be'. You're setting a standard of proof that is basically unachievable. With that in mind there seems little point in me trying to convince you.

Your entire position appears to be "it is racism because I insist that it must be the case that any differences in outcomes have to be caused by racism." You're refusing to even consider any other possibilities or believe that a there could be any possible reason to question your basic assumption. Additionally, that basic assumption is actually something that should normally be the result of a process where such a conclusion is based upon evidence and reason as it is something that can be reasoned from evidence and is not something that cannot possibly be proven or disproven and therefore must be assumed. I would think that it should require some form of evidence to conclude that any differences in outcomes must by necessity be ascribed to racism. But if one begins with a conclusion as a premise that is one's basic assumption, evidence becomes irrelevant. Any discussion of any issue where one party takes the stance that their conclusion is a self evident truth is a useless pursuit for all other parties to the discussion.