Changing your mind about prophecy

[John Helpher]

Well you can think it is lip service but I know it isn't.

I think you don't know what you're saying. Just before you make this comment, you say this:

Well I put the but because both are included in prophecy. Which is more important depends on teh context of the prophecy.

Remember, the issue is what is most important when it comes to interpreting prophecy; that Jesus is the ultimate source, or predicting the future. You're saying it depends on the context, which suggests you believe there are some contexts where predicting the future is more important than Jesus being the ultimate source of that prophecy.

This belief that there are times when Jesus and his teachings are less important than what the prophecy may say about the future is fairly indicative of how most people treat the teachings of Jesus in general; they are mostly optional, which is a shame because Jesus really is the ultimate focus of all prophecy.

Any time when Jesus' teachings are set aside, the interpretation will be skewed and inaccurate.

 

[nolidad]

The scribes and pharisees, referring to Jesus - "Christ the King of Israel", Mark 15:31-32, right in the text KJV.

Jesus is his name. Christ the King of Israel is his title and rightful appointment. Coming in the name of the Lord.

(Anti) Christ will be the King of Israel, but coming in his own name. And not rightfully appointed.

No-one knows the person's name, yet.

Yes He is the King of Israel!

but that dodges having to answer your hypothesis antichrist will be anointed King of Israel by the jews. You make a declaratory statement and then give very very vague references to try to support it.

Yes one is coming in His own name and Israel will be deceived and believe him- but that does not even remotely cause one to think that Israel will anoint and crown him king!

So your answer is but a red herring.

 

[Douggg]

I believe that the 70th week began with Christ's baptism and was halted at the midway point with his crucifixion.

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem hailed as the messiah in John 12:12-15, on Palms Sunday. Four days later, Jesus was crucified for our sake, called Good Friday because it was good for us.

The 70th week is still unfulfilled.

 

[Ki Won]

Well if I "tooted my own horn" it was to establish that I have studied hard and viewed many many opinions of the tribulation and not just spouting something as a novice. If you want to think I was being arrogant that is your option. No I don't think I know it all. But what I believe, I believe is 100% right. And I am always willing to be shown wrong if one presents a stronger argument from Scripture and not from philosophy, reason, or allegorical rewordings of Scripture.


and I guess you ignored part of my answer to you.

The tribulation period as it is commonly called is teh 70th week of Daniel and is a 7 year period. It commences when the Antichrist signs a covenant for 7 years with Israel and ends when Jesus returns and defeats the ANtichrist.

Teh "Great Tribulation" is the last 42 months or 3 1/2 years. This commences right around the time when the Antichrist is killed, resurrected, the false prophet erects the image that will speak and the mark instituted. Also it is when the anti christ as spoken by Jesus and Paul enter the holy of holies, sits on the mercy seat and declares himself as God. these events commence after the blowing of the sixth trumpet (the 2 nd woe)but before the blowing of the 7th trumpet as shown in REvelation 11.

As I believe that SCipture teaches that the first 6 seals are pre 70th week events. So that the 70th week of Daniel commences with the opening of the seventh seal. So the trumpets are judgments of the first 3 1/2 years and the bowls are the final judgment which take place in the last 3 1/2 years approx.

I ignored it because it's utter tosh, sorry to be so blunt. If that's what you're teaching in your church then I wouldn't want to be in your shoes in front of the BEMA seat, they might be a little uncomfortable. #JustSaying

"But what I believe, I believe is 100% right"

Me too. And so do thousands of other religious adherents around the world across various religions, cultures and continents.

But we can't ALL be 100% correct even if we believe that we are, coming into a debate with a fixed "this is right" position means you are never likely to alter that position even when presented with unassailable facts of a different doctrine. If you start rigid it's impossible to become flexible later..

 

[nolidad]

Good Lord Nolidad, go and learn a bit of humility, "having taught [a lie] for over 30 years yada yada.." "All the explanations.. 45 years.." How blinkin arrogant of you to think because of your "experience" you know it all and everybody else is wrong!

Fwiw, you are bang wrong if you think the tribulation is 7 years, the beast is given 42 months, that's it! It says it right there in your Bible..

So you say I am teaching lies and am bang wrong!

So show some meekness on your own part and try trotting out scriptures to show me wrong instead of just spouting off accusations whereof you have no clue as to what you speak!

 

[Douggg]

Yes He is the King of Israel!

but that dodges having to answer your hypothesis antichrist will be anointed King of Israel by the jews. You make a declaratory statement and then give very very vague references to try to support it.

Yes one is coming in His own name and Israel will be deceived and believe him- but that does not even remotely cause one to think that Israel will anoint and crown him king!

So your answer is but a red herring.

It is not vague, Jesus said in John 5:43 that he came in His Father's name and the Jews reject him - which they did as their King of Israel. And that another would come in his own name, him they will accept.

Where are you getting "Israel" anoints, anointed anyone as king? A prophet anointed the only three kings that united Israel has had. Saul and David by Samuel the prophet. And Solomon by Nathan the prophet.

The false prophet will anoint the Antichrist as the King of Israel/messiah.

 

[Ki Won]

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem hailed as the messiah in John 12:12-15, on Palms Sunday. Four days later, Jesus was crucified for our sake, called Good Friday because it was good for us.

The 70th week is still unfulfilled.

Doug, tbh, if you told me black was black I would believe it was white.. Know why? Because everything else you say is that far wrong..

Including your math by the way, Sunday to Friday is 5 days.. In any case, I said the week began with Christ's baptism, not his Palm Sunday arrival into Jerusalem.

 

[nolidad]

I ignored it because it's utter tosh, sorry to be so blunt. If that's what you're teaching in your church then I wouldn't want to be in your shoes in front of the BEMA seat, they might be a little uncomfortable. #JustSaying

"But what I believe, I believe is 100% right"

Me too. And so do thousands of other religious adherents around the world across various religions, cultures and continents.

But we can't ALL be 100% correct even if we believe that we are, coming into a debate with a fixed "this is right" position means you are never likely to alter that position even when presented with unassailable facts of a different doctrine. If you start rigid it's impossible to become flexible later..

I agree that we both cannot be 100% right. That is why this is called a debate forum. INstead of trite juvenile things like "tosh", and then making threats about my judgment before the bema seat (wow you are the first non dispensationalist that I have seen who believes in it!), maybe you whould open up your Bible and get involved in discussion/debate.

Hurlin threats and subtle little ad-hominems are cute, but they make one think you can't deend whatever you do believe and must attack someone elses stance to bolster your confidence in your own beliefs. that is a general statement but holds true the majority of the time!

I am confident in how I will stand before the LOrd. But if that was just not trash talk on your part, but even a little concern of yoru heat for a fellow brother- lets talk! Otherwise I shall not waste my or your time any longer.

 

[nolidad]

It is not vague, Jesus said in John 5:43 that he came in His Father's name and the Jews reject him - which they did as their King of Israel. And that another would come in his own name, him they will accept.

Where are you getting "Israel" anoints, anointed anyone as king? A prophet anointed the only three kings that united Israel has had. Saul and David by Samuel the prophet. And Solomon by Nathan the prophet.

The false prophet will anoint the Antichrist as the King of Israel/messiah.

So now you are saying the false prophet will be a high priest of the reinstituted Jewish system as well?

They also rejected Jesus as Messiah! But that one verse does nothing to prove your hypothesis that antichrist must be crowned king of Israel by the high priest/false prophet!

 

[Ki Won]

It sounds to me that you are a disciple to your bible teachers. Do you understand the difference between gathering information and being indoctrinated? Which are you doing?

Work on a timeline chart of the 7 year 70th week major events, to comply with the infallible Ezekiel 39 timeline framework, which is...

View attachment 289711

____________________________________________________________________________

And here is mine, filled in....



View attachment 289712

Yes Doug, I've seen your charts several times, they're still worthless..

Yes I know the difference between gathering information and indoctrination which is why I get teaching from such a wide range of teachers who all carry differing positions and understandings of the Scriptures. As I said, I'm hungry to learn, you learn from teachers ergo I listen to or watch teachers..

I don't need to work on any charts Doug and neither do you, you need to focus on studying the Word of God as we are commanded to and getting some sound Bible teaching along with it. With all due respect, you desperately need it Doug.. But be of good cheer, you're not the only one on this forum so chin up eh?

 

[nolidad]

I think you don't know what you're saying. Just before you make this comment, you say this:



Remember, the issue is what is most important when it comes to interpreting prophecy; that Jesus is the ultimate source, or predicting the future. You're saying it depends on the context, which suggests you believe there are some contexts where predicting the future is more important than Jesus being the ultimate source of that prophecy.

This belief that there are times when Jesus and his teachings are less important than what the prophecy may say about the future is fairly indicative of how most people treat the teachings of Jesus in general; they are mostly optional, which is a shame because Jesus really is the ultimate focus of all prophecy.

Any time when Jesus' teachings are set aside, the interpretation will be skewed and inaccurate.

Where are ou getting this garbage from ?

How did a talk on prophecy and the people invovled in a prophecy spin to now I may be setting aside the teachings of Jesus?

Yes as I said Jesus is the priority.

But here is a prophecy about the people of Israel:

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Are you saying that we should ignore all that is being said by god about what He is going to do to teh people of Israel and just focus on Jesus? that is such foolishness!

Seems to me that you are staining at gnats just to find a way to subtly condemn well in this case-me as being one who trashes Jesus teachings.

If you even bothered to take a little time to know me, you would know that that implication came straight from the pit! Presumptiousness is still a sin!

 

[Douggg]

Doug, tbh, if you told me black was black I would believe it was white.. Know why? Because everything else you say is that far wrong..

Including your math by the way, Sunday to Friday is 5 days.. In any case, I said the week began with Christ's baptism, not his Palm Sunday arrival into Jerusalem.

Jesus rose on the third day, called Easter Sunday. The Jews measure the end of each day with Sundown, not with a clock mechanism. But that is not as important as it was not three and a half years into the 70th week that was Jesus was crucified.

If you don't agree with my 70th week timeline chart of events, then you should work on your own as I suggested. But it is impossible to be correct and not comply with the infallible Ezekiel 39 timeline framework for the end times. Which not to have 7 years remaining of Daniel 9's 70 weeks is not compliant.

 

[nolidad]

Remember, the issue is what is most important when it comes to interpreting prophecy; that Jesus is the ultimate source, or predicting the future. You're saying it depends on the context, which suggests you believe there are some contexts where predicting the future is more important than Jesus being the ultimate source of that prophecy.

This is also a gross misstatement and wandering from reality! Well there are some contexts where Jesus is predicting the future! Sorry you can't see that! but it is throughout all of SCripture! Same with god the Father! They are predicting future events on earth that are going to impact man! Like this prophecy:

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

See this portion of a wider prophecy is about earth, man, beats and events on earth. But I also remember the larger picture as well. So stop your insinuations.



YOu seem to think that I am incapable of looking at the whole while also looking at the portions. This is also another grave error of presumptuousness on your part!

 

[Ki Won]

So you say I am teaching lies and am bang wrong!

So show some meekness on your own part and try trotting out scriptures to show me wrong instead of just spouting off accusations whereof you have no clue as to what you speak!

How long is 1260 days? What about a time, times and half a time? Finally how long is 42 months?

Do you really need me to give you the Scriptures, just a glance at the numbers quoted tells you what you want to know, Biblical evidence of 3.5 year tribulation. Look up the passages yourself, there's probably indentations in the pages already..

Stick to your seven years Nolidad, the mark of the beast is literally at the door, maybe we're nearly at mid-trib already? (Which already poo-poos your pre-trib belief). I don't care really, because at least you should be able to discern when the beast actually arrives that he is the beast and not God as his false Elijah will tell you he is. I just hope that you've prepared for the 42 months that follow his arrival..

 

[Timtofly]

Once again, what you are claiming above is not found in the Bible.
Why do you make these wild claims without the scripture to back it up?

And lack of Scripture to prove me wrong, means that is your opinion, not Scripture.

“There will be no more delay; on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

Do you refute God's Word that says: "the days (plural) of the sound from the seventh angel (trumpet)."?

It is a week of days. Daniel 9:27

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The week is cut in half again in the book of Revelation 13. You tell me why Satan's 42 months is not the event that cuts in half the sounding of the 7th Trumpet? It is clear to see that Revelation 13 cuts into the narrative of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is the 3rd woe of Satan coming to earth to start a 42 month period. It is also the completion of the hidden plan of God. The 7th Trumpet is completion. There is not an 8th Trumpet mentioned. Daniel says the interruption is the abomination of desolation. It splits a 7 year period. It splits a 7 day week of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Although it is 8 days, because it starts on a Sunday like the Palm Sunday of the first century. The Second Coming ends with the 7th Trumpet.

 

[John Helpher]

YOu seem to think that I am incapable of looking at the whole while also looking at the portions.

No, I just think that it's easy to get lost in all the mystery of prophecy and lose track of what's really important. The original topic of this thread is about being able to change our minds regarding prophecy, in general, so technically any aspect of prophecy is fair game here, though the video I posted was specifically about pre-trib vs post-trib.

The pre-trib theory is that Jesus will rapture up his elect (i.e. the second coming of Jesus) before the Great Tribulation, and almost always, supporters of this theory will argue this is because God wants to spare us from the suffering that will accompany so much tribulation; it is an escape.

I believe God is able to offer us protection and that he doesn't want us to suffer just for the sake of suffering, but it is also entirely consistent with Jesus' teachings and principles that standing up for the truth will necessarily lead to persecution and tribulation. Jesus asked to be spared from his hour of suffering, and even boasted to Peter that if he wanted, he could call down an army of angels to support him, but he knew better; he knew that in order to demonstrate that the kingdom of Heaven really is worth dying for, that there really is something more important than just this life, he'd need to make himself an example.

I believe that is what the Revelation describes when it refers to those who overcome the Beast by not loving their lives unto the death. We will be a witness to the world in those last days. It is not consistent with the spirit of Jesus' teachings that God would take all his best people out of the world just when the world will need them most.

This is what I mean by using Jesus' testimony to accurately interpret prophecy. You don't even need verses if you just try to get the spirit of what Jesus meant when he said that we are supposed to take up our cross, deny ourselves, and follow him.

 

[Timtofly]

This is probably the worst thing you can say about them. Look carefully at the description of them:

Revelation 14:4
"These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth."

They follow him just like Jesus said in the gospels, "Follow me". They are honest-to-God followers of Jesus who will do whatever he wants them to do, even if it means forsaking family, friends, reputation, the security that comes with working for a paycheck, and their own lives. They leave it all behind to follow him, just like he taught in the gospels (Luke 14:33).

Remember, the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus (Revelation 19:10). Prophecy has no meaning without reference back to Jesus and his teachings. He said we must forsake everything to follow him. These 144k do just that, and as a result they are God's elite leaders during this time. Up to this point, no church, government, or group can say they are God's kingdom here on Earth, and yet this group of people, organized by Jesus himself through his Holy Spirit will be the Kingdom of Heaven on earth for the final 7 years.

What is the final 7 years? Satan gets the last 42 months and Satan is then bound 1000 years. It is the end of Satan as the Adversary. The church ends before Satan's 42 months. The 144k are only here for the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. No where does it say they stay during Satan's 42 months. We have this verse though:

7 it was allowed to make war on God’s holy people and to defeat them; and it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

How can you say the Kingdom lasts for the last 7 years when this verse says God's holy people were defeated and all authority was given to the beast? This is the last 42 months, before the Millennium. But Satan is defeated at Armageddon and bound during the last Millennium.

 

[Timtofly]

Watching Doug and Tim discussing their end-time beliefs is like watching Stephen King and Terry Pratchett discussing the content of a potential joint collaboration or something, completely terrifying but thankfully complete fiction

Well being complimented for being entertaining is a surprise.

You think God's Word is fiction? Point to my post that does not come from God's Word. At least I do not use God's Word as a battering ram, or at least have not been accused of that yet. Do I put it in modern terms? Maybe; I have set in front of too many movies and it colors the way my post come out. Who knows? I am not a Pastor nor a college professor. Are some posters here such people? This forum is not a college classroom. It is an exchange of ideas between a wide variety of humanity. You get what is here, not what you think an online forum should be.

 

[Jamdoc]

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by the bit I bolded/italicised in the quote. "An enduring presence" ? As in the Day of the Lord or Jesus' return in general? And again with the "imminence position", I don't think that the abomination is the " last thing" before the rapture can happen, the beast has 42 months so it's 42 months then Jesus returns/rapture (if we "survive" which is how perileipomai should be translated in 1 Thessalonians 4:17)

The word Parousia doesn't just mean arrival but also presence, so for pre wrath, we don't see the second coming as a single, 1 day event, but rather a series of events, that begins with the rapture and lasts into eternity, it's all the "second coming". Pre trib and post trib both see the second coming as a single 24 hour (or less) period, being literal about "the day of the Lord" being 1 single day. Post trib sees that as a single day at the end of "the tribulations" which they call all the wrath of God events "tribulations" instead of the wrath of God, while pre trib sees the rapture as being a separate event from the second coming, but still sees the second coming as being Jesus coming on a white horse in Revelation 19. Pre wrath views it as there are 2 events of Jesus coming down to earth (one in the clouds, and one on a horse, one to harvest the earth, one to come back with His armies to fight Armageddon and claim His kingdom). It's just that all of that is "the second coming"
The reasons are because we separate the wrath of God and tribulations into being 2 different things, and are not literal about the "day of the Lord" being a single 1 24 hour period but rather "the day" is a figure of speech like when you say "the day is at hand" or "the hour is nigh" it doesn't necessarily mean an actual chronological day or hour, but just that this is the time being referred to where these things will happen. The 5th trumpet judgement is shown to last 5 months all by itself. We also look at things like Isaiah 34:8

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Where a day and a year are used interchangeably

The second thing is on imminence. Pretrib think the rapture is imminent, it can happen at any time with no conditions to be met. Post trib and pre wrath, view that there are conditions that have to be met. 2 Thessalonians 2 and Matthew 24 explain things that happen before the second coming of Christ, to those two groups, the rapture CANNOT happen until these conditions are met, and yet no man knows the day or the hour, that means, after those conditions are met, it doesn't make the rapture happen right after that last event happens. With a post trib position, you could actually calculate the day if you know what day to start from. When the abomination of desolation happens, you'd say "the rapture will happen 1290 days from now, mark your calendars!", so for post trib, the rapture isn't ever "imminent" they know when it will happen. Which does not fit how Jesus talked about it.
With pre wrath, we know the last specific event that will happen prior to Christ's return is the Abomination of Desolation, after that, while the beast is given 42 months and the Great Tribulations begin, we also know that Jesus said those days (the Great Tribulation) will be cut short so that some of us will survive. He was not specific about how those days would be cut short, but to us... it means that yeah, we can have conditions that need to be fulfilled, but once those conditions are fulfilled.. it could be any day within a 42 month window. It be comes an imminent event at the Abomination of desolation because the prophetic conditions have been met, and Jesus is going to cut the tribulations short. So at that point we look up for our redemption draws near.

 

[John Helpher]

What is the final 7 years?

You've shifted the topic here. You said the 144k have no choice in who they are. I questioned you about that. Would you mind replying to my response in post #170?