Changed View of Joyce Meyer

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I don't see how making a mistake about how much atonement Jesus made at the time of the cross, and how much was left over makes them unsaved; they still believe Christ suffered ALL ATONEMENT. I am just not quick to judge someone's salvation, based on scholarship of theology. But I can judge based on lack of power over sin. And interestingly, this is where others think I'M a heretic. There are so many focused on the atonement, that they don't recognize what Christ's atonement accomplished. Some say, He just paid the price so the sins they keep committing are covered and they are going to heaven. I say no. They are still in the flesh and have no inheritance in heaven. You MUST be born again of the Spirit and be a new creature in Christ.
The problem is that their teaching about the atonement is mixed with "we are gods", and that Jesus was born again when He rose from the dead, that because we are born again we are exactly equal with Jesus so that we are also messiahs, that God expects us to be wealthy, and always healed when we command it. So it is not just one mistake about the Atonement, it is that the whole foundation is rotten.

I have always loved E W Kenyon's writing and have a few of his books. But I did a bit of research on him just this week and I found out that his theological training was done under a man who held to the teaching of Mary Baker Eddy, the woman who founded Christian Science. Then I realised that Kenyon's teaching is heavily based on Christian Science, which is a non-Christian cult. Then I saw that Kenneth Hagin memorised all of Kenyon's teaching and made them his own. And all the other WOF leaders have based their teaching on Hagin. This made me see oh so clearly that because of "we are gods" teaching that it is the multiple gods of Mormonism, and the positive confession and naming and claiming teaching comes right from Christian Science! So if the foundation of WOF teaching is a combination of Mormon and Christian Science, then it has to be a non-Christian cult!

This is shocking to me, because whole stadiums of gullible people are drinking all this naming/claiming, we are gods, and prosperity teaching in to their own destruction. Ezekiel 14:8-9 says that God is against false prophets and teachers, and also is against those who accept their teaching and prophecies! Now that is spooky to the max! I didn't realise until now how bad this was, and that those who subscribe to WOF teaching are in real danger.

So, anyone can make mistakes but have their foundations secure in Christ. I know that you are not basing your foundation beliefs on cultish doctrines like Mormonism and Christian Science, but on the true Christ of the Bible.
 
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1stcenturylady

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The problem is that their teaching about the atonement is mixed with "we are gods", and that Jesus was born again when He rose from the dead, that because we are born again we are exactly equal with Jesus so that we are also messiahs, that God expects us to be wealthy, and always healed when we command it. So it is not just one mistake about the Atonement, it is that the whole foundation is rotten.
I just caught this before I left and didn't read the whole thing, but did you read all my posts (#19)? As far as our authority in Christ, which I see as being like gods (but not a Messiah, which I don't think they mean, I don't know) we have authority to heal the sick and raise the dead in the name of Jesus. We also have the power to not sin, just as a god. I don't use those terms, but I don't slander someone who does, because I am now more than a mere mortal in Christ.
 
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I just caught this before I left and didn't read the whole thing, but did you read all my posts (#19)? As far as our authority in Christ, which I see as being like gods (but not a Messiah, which I don't think they mean, I don't know) we have authority to heal the sick and raise the dead in the name of Jesus. We also have the power to not sin, just as a god. I don't use those terms, but I don't slander someone who does, because I am now more than a mere mortal in Christ.
I can see what you mean. I think you would agree with me that we are partakers of the divine nature, having God the Holy Spirit inside of us. It is not that we have somehow metamorphosed in to having the same nature and essence of God to be equal with Him. We are still poor sinners and nothing at all, but with God the Holy Spirit in us, we can do the works that Jesus said we could do because of His indwelling presence. But the WOF teachers say that we have BECOME gods, and that is the blasphemy. In actual fact, it is not about us becoming anything at all, but it is Christ in us, the hope of glory.

I fully agree that we have the authority to do all the things that you say, but it is not in our name or by any ability of self-improvement of our own, it is in the authority of the Name of Jesus and through the power of the Holy Spirit. We must decrease and be small in our own sight, but have Jesus as all in all, and very large in our sight.
 
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Hank77

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I kind of skip the commentaries and go right to the strongs, the word used for sin in the passage (twice) is the same word used for sin in the whole New Testament. Adding a new meaning to a word in one particular instance isn't much different than textual criticism's re-writing of the bible saying the word for Homosexual means shrine prostitute.

Also, why is there a commentary on the Hebrew word, when the passage is translated from the greek? Even the apostles used the Septuagint, the Hebrew meaning isn't even relevant.
Adam Clarke was using the Greek Septuagint and comparing it to the Hebrew used. Did you read the rest of what he wrote and the examples he gave from scripture? Did you read any of the other commentaries?
Whatever...:wave:
 
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I started a thread a while ago where I defended Joyce Meyer. It was because what I viewed of her at the time, I could not see anything heretical about her. But I have viewed a very heretical teaching that changes my attitude to her completely.

She is preaching another Jesus and is denying that the shedding of the blood of Jesus fully atoned for our sin. She preaches that Jesus had a net put over Him and was carted off to hell to suffer torment by demons. She goes into total fantasy about what she thinks happened to Him in hell. But the truth is that once having finished His work of atonement on the cross, He gave up His life and went to Paradise. He never took on the nature of Satan at all. Peter says that Jesus suffered once for sins and not twice. He suffered on the cross, and did not suffer in hell at all. It is blasphemy to say that Jesus took on a satanic nature and united with the devil. To say this is to say that God united with the devil. This is damnable heresy and Meyer preaching another Jesus and not the Jesus of the Bible.

That doesn't surprise me, she's just too big to be too real.

I've heard the Hell thing before, maybe a few teach it, IDK, but never saw any reason to believe it.

Those with a "Higher knowledge" tend to appeal to some as a smarter preacher that knows what know one else knew and that fact tends to add to draw a larger crowd.

Problem is, it's not that no one knew it, but the reason no one taught it is because it isn't true.
 
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That doesn't surprise me, she's just too big to be too real.

I've heard the Hell thing before, maybe a few teach it, IDK, but never saw any reason to believe it.

Those with a "Higher knowledge" tend to appeal to some as a smarter preacher that knows what know one else knew and that fact tends to add to draw a larger crowd.

Problem is, it's not that no one knew it, but the reason no one taught it is because it isn't true.
I have a defining Scripture that guides me about popular preachers and teaching that draws big crowds. "The way to destruction is broad, but the way to eternal life is narrow, and few there be who find it".

It is significant that that out of all the multitudes who followed Jesus for the signs and wonders He performed, there were only 120 in the upper room to receive the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Adam Clarke was using the Greek Septuagint and comparing it to the Hebrew used. Did you read the rest of what he wrote and the examples he gave from scripture? Did you read any of the other commentaries?
Whatever...:wave:
Commentaries? a Midrash so to speak.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The problem is that their teaching about the atonement is mixed with "we are gods", and that Jesus was born again when He rose from the dead, that because we are born again we are exactly equal with Jesus so that we are also messiahs, that God expects us to be wealthy, and always healed when we command it. So it is not just one mistake about the Atonement, it is that the whole foundation is rotten.

Well, if people believe they are gods, what do they need Jesus for? It's basically new age thinking, this is another essence of the spirit of Antichrist who magnifies himself above all worshipped things.

Da 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
 
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1stcenturylady

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We are still poor sinners and nothing at all

This part of your sentence I disagree with and believe Jesus instead. You got that from Reformationists that we are STILL sinners. Only those who sin are sinners. And if you sin, then you are a slave to sin. Jesus freed us from sin, and in Him there is no sin. Being born again of the Spirit is receiving a new nature that hates sin, so you no longer have a problem with the old nature's carnal desires. If you still have the same nature, you don't belong to Christ.


John 8:34-36
1 John 3:5-9
 
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This part of your sentence I disagree with and believe Jesus instead. You got that from Reformationists that we are STILL sinners. Only those who sin are sinners. And if you sin, then you are a slave to sin. Jesus freed us from sin, and in Him there is no sin.

John 8:34-36
1 John 3:5-9
It is a good way to think of ourselves, so that we remain small in our own sight.
 
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1stcenturylady

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It is a good way to think of ourselves, so that we remain small in our own sight.

Which do you mean? That we are sinners, or that we are free from sin, and no longer sinners.
 
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Which do you mean? That we are sinners, or that we are free from sin, and no longer sinners.
The Scripture says that we should not think of ourselves more than we ought to think. The teaching about self-esteem and self-image comes from secular psychology, which is founded on the theories of atheists (Sigmund Freud). occultists (Jung), and other godless theorists. Psalm 1 says, "Blessed is the person who sits not in the counsel of the ungodly". WOF teaching promotes the self (we are gods; or our faith has power in itself; positive thinking, which is Hindu mind-control; positive confession, which is Christian Science), promoting it either equal with God or superior to Him (seen in Ceflo Dollar's teaching that God cannot do anything without our permission). Therefore, we need to be sober and vigilant that we don't allow self to exalt itself and turn our religion into mere pride.
 
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1stcenturylady

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The Scripture says that we should not think of ourselves more than we ought to think. The teaching about self-esteem and self-image comes from secular psychology, which is founded on the theories of atheists (Sigmund Freud). occultists (Jung), and other godless theorists. Psalm 1 says, "Blessed is the person who sits not in the counsel of the ungodly". WOF teaching promotes the self (we are gods; or our faith has power in itself; positive thinking, which is Hindu mind-control; positive confession, which is Christian Science), promoting it either equal with God or superior to Him (seen in Ceflo Dollar's teaching that God cannot do anything without our permission). Therefore, we need to be sober and vigilant that we don't allow self to exalt itself and turn our religion into mere pride.


I'll still go with what Jesus says about us, and as far as psychology, to keep telling yourself you are a worm, you will never get out there and witness or save the lost. But that is not even what that scripture means. It has NOTHING to do with SIN, and everything to do with gifts. So learn the meaning of every Word of God so you don't use them out of context, and don't fall victim to those false teachings from the Reformation that seem to still be lingering, like we are STILL SINNERS. I'm SOOOOOO glad you got out of that church! Their doctrine makes spiritually dead Christians.

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.


No where does it say that some don't have any gifts because they are just worms!
 
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I'll still go with what Jesus says about us, and as far as psychology, to keep telling yourself you are a worm, you will never get out there and witness or save the lost. But that is not even what that scripture means. It has NOTHING to do with SIN, and everything to do with gifts. So learn the meaning of every Word of God so you don't use them out of context, and don't fall victim to those false teachings from the Reformation that seem to still be lingering, like we are STILL SINNERS. I'm SOOOOOO glad you got out of that church! Their doctrine makes spiritually dead Christians.

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.


No where does it say that some don't have any gifts because they are just worms!
You are correct, of course!
I am not a morning person, so when I first get up I wonder if I am a prophet or a loss!
 
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KyleSpringer

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If she's teaching Christ and him crucified then she's not doing anything wrong, even though I disagree with the part about Jesus being tormented for the 3 days. My biggest question is whether or not it's biblical for a woman to be pastor of a church. That's a whole different post though.
If she's teaching Christ and him crucified then she's not doing anything wrong, even though I disagree with the part about Jesus being tormented for the 3 days. My biggest question is whether or not it's biblical for a woman to be pastor of a church. That's a whole different post though.
That’s the biggest question you can think of when considering this woman? Her annual salary is $900,000 and your wondering if a woman pastor is biblical?

Women leaders are biblical, woman should be teaching women.
 
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Here is another fake healing evangelist who is to be avoided at all costs! It was revealed that he had informal talks, before services with friends and family of people attending, and then during the service called the people out through a "revelation" but in fact, he had already gathered the information about the people before the service. Also, he put people who could already walk into wheelchairs and then in the service pulled them out of the wheelchairs to give the impression that they were healed. Another fake healing was when he grabbed the walking cane of a women beside a man to give the impression that the man had been healed, and the man said later that he had no trouble with his legs at all.

W V Grant is a deliberate deceiver. His healing are total fakes, and his words of knowledge are deliberate lies. The reason why people who know this won't expose him because they want to preserve the illusion.

I have now discovered that he is in

I have just discovered that he went to prison in the 1990s for fraud, so I don't know if he is still in ministry. But there will be, for sure, many other frauds who will be preaching the same message and harvesting truckloads of money from gullible people.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Here is another fake healing evangelist who is to be avoided at all costs! It was revealed that he had informal talks, before services with friends and family of people attending, and then during the service called the people out through a "revelation" but in fact, he had already gathered the information about the people before the service. Also, he put people who could already walk into wheelchairs and then in the service pulled them out of the wheelchairs to give the impression that they were healed. Another fake healing was when he grabbed the walking cane of a women beside a man to give the impression that the man had been healed, and the man said later that he had no trouble with his legs at all.

W V Grant is a deliberate deceiver. His healing are total fakes, and his words of knowledge are deliberate lies. The reason why people who know this won't expose him because they want to preserve the illusion.

I have now discovered that he is in

I have just discovered that he went to prison in the 1990s for fraud, so I don't know if he is still in ministry. But there will be, for sure, many other frauds who will be preaching the same message and harvesting truckloads of money from gullible people.

This is one reason I don't give money to ministries, except those who feed the poor. Otherwise, I give it directly to the poor. Building great cathedrals to oneself is no where in the New Testament. They met in private homes. All the money gathered was then given to the poor, and that is how the love spread - it was real, tangible love.

1 Corinthians 5:
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Well, if people believe they are gods, what do they need Jesus for? It's basically new age thinking, this is another essence of the spirit of Antichrist who magnifies himself above all worshipped things.

Da 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

I would have to hear one of Copeland's or whomever's sermons on this, but it is clear to me that to be like Christ is to be a little god. Those with the Spirit have the authority to heal the sick, cast out devils, with just a word, even do miracles. That is more than a mere mortal. Isn't that like a little god. What they are not saying, I would hope not, is that this doesn't mean they are little Messiahs where they think their blood is going to make anyone righteous. I don't question things Christ says himself. And He said a person who sins is a slave to sin, but that He has freed us from sin, making us sons of God in the Father's house, and whom He frees is free indeed. Little gods are sons of God. Makes sense to know who you are in Christ. What is worse than knowing who you are in Christ is to be a scoffer. God hates scoffers. Psalms 1. Knowing that, I look for the true and am slow to speak.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I would have to hear one of Copeland's or whomever's sermons on this, but it is clear to me that to be like Christ is to be a little god. Those with the Spirit have the authority to heal the sick, cast out devils, with just a word, even do miracles. That is more than a mere mortal. Isn't that like a little god. What they are not saying, I would hope not, is that this doesn't mean they are little Messiahs where they think their blood is going to make anyone righteous. I don't question things Christ says himself. And He said a person who sins is a slave to sin, but that He has freed us from sin, making us sons of God in the Father's house, and whom He frees is free indeed. Little gods are sons of God. Makes sense to know who you are in Christ. What is worse than knowing who you are in Christ is to be a scoffer. God hates scoffers. Psalms 1. Knowing that, I look for the true and am slow to speak.
Theosis is a funny to describe topic in any human language. Some people get lazy and say that they are gods or say something that implies it and don't bother to correct people if they misunderstand.

When it comes to charismatic/pentecostal spiritual expression, I've noticed many trends over the years that are not encouraging. (And other trends that were encouraging) For Jesus to do His work through you, you just need to have unwavering faith and the fulfillment of the request needs to glorify God, then anything will be given if asked in Jesus name. You don't need to be a god. Being born again of the Holy Spirit does not add you to the trinity, it just allows you to join the dance of eternity. I believe the old term used for this was Perichoresis.

If people declare themselves gods, but lack the power to fix what's wrong with the world, then they sure are puny gods. If people just get high off worship, but don't develop spiritually, and cannot actually do anything, it then calls to question what Spirit they were taking in. Maybe there's a form of Godliness, but the power of God is made perfect in our weakness. If they're that advanced, then let's see some 2 Corinthinans 12 style boasting of those weaknesses so Christ's power can rest on them.
 
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Theosis is a funny to describe topic in any human language. Some people get lazy and say that they are gods or say something that implies it and don't bother to correct people if they misunderstand.

When it comes to charismatic/pentecostal spiritual expression, I've noticed many trends over the years that are not encouraging. (And other trends that were encouraging) For Jesus to do His work through you, you just need to have unwavering faith and the fulfillment of the request needs to glorify God, then anything will be given if asked in Jesus name. You don't need to be a god. Being born again of the Holy Spirit does not add you to the trinity, it just allows you to join the dance of eternity. I believe the old term used for this was Perichoresis.

If people declare themselves gods, but lack the power to fix what's wrong with the world, then they sure are puny gods. If people just get high off worship, but don't develop spiritually, and cannot actually do anything, it then calls to question what Spirit they were taking in. Maybe there's a form of Godliness, but the power of God is made perfect in our weakness. If they're that advanced, then let's see some 2 Corinthinans 12 style boasting of those weaknesses so Christ's power can rest on them.

Is a son of god, a god themselves?

Seeing as the world is not fixed, are you calling the Trinity "puny"?
 
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