Changed perspective on atheists- yes, this is a rant

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟168,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
Here's an observation I've made throughout my life: we tend to receive exactly what we bring to the table. So if we go through life feeling that Christians are superstitious anti-modernists, or that atheists are immoral materialists, or that muslims are fanatical islamists - somehow, our real-world experiences tend to reflect that stance, and not just because of selective perception.
It's like that person who has been abused by a partner before, sets out to find someone better, and yet always ends up with abusive types again.

Now, a conflict situation changes all that to a certain degree: facing danger together, pursuing a common goal, being strangers in a foreign country - all these and many other factors contribute to a sense of solidarity that can pierce our pre-conceived notions, and make friends out of people who would possibly have looked at each other with cold disregard if they met under different circumstances.

I do not think I could be friends with a person whose ideology (political, social, or religious) I consider abhorrent, yet quite a few of my friends embrace stances that are quite distant from my own, and I do not hold them in less esteem because of that.
 
Upvote 0

Zeek

Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Nov 8, 2010
2,888
217
England
✟11,664.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
There's already quite a bit to discuss on this thread. But first let me welcome anyone who understands that atheists can be extremely moral people, and proactively so.

They can also be utter [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]s, and stupider than a lobotomized jellyfish.

Not everyone you meet who is an atheist is fit to represent the atheist position (not that there IS one...)

Just as not every self-proclaimed Christian is at all Christ-like.

Most Atheists turn out to be Agnostics and the rest are simply anti-god or anti-faith of any description...even dear ol' Dawkins; the Archbishop of Unbelief, in the 'God Delusion' attempts to present a scale of 'unbelief' and hesitates to step onto the top rung himself.

But moving rapidly on and not wanting any repetition of my experiences on an Atheist site...(where I was metaphorically lynched on a daily basis for three months....yes I have masochistic tendencies)...the fact is there are people in all sorts of groups that show basic decency through their shared humanity...in part that is what was shown through the parable of the 'Good Samaritan', as well as being a slap in the face for religious bigots.
 
Upvote 0

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟168,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
Most Atheists turn out to be Agnostics
As do most theists, discounting the most adamant fanatics. Having strong faith in a specific world view, even to the point where one would be willing to lay down one's life for what one believes to be true, is not synonymous with actually KNOWING that a specific god or gods exists. And saner people from all across the board (theists and atheists alike) are willing to concede that they COULD be wrong, and that certain things ARE ultimately unknowable, the existence of a deity or deities being among them.
 
Upvote 0

Zoness

667, neighbor of the beast
Supporter
Jul 21, 2008
8,384
1,654
Illinois
✟468,399.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
In my Christian and pagan phases, I was always Agnostic, open to the possibility that I didn't actually KNOW any of this was FACT and I was open to having my mind changed. A worldview that locksteps any possibility of change is dangerous imo.
 
Upvote 0

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟168,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
In my Christian and pagan phases, I was always Agnostic, open to the possibility that I didn't actually KNOW any of this was FACT and I was open to having my mind changed. A worldview that locksteps any possibility of change is dangerous imo.

Indeed. Especially if doubt is penalized, former members are ostracized or threatened, or - as in the case of at least one world religion - if apostasy is treated as a capital offense.
Any world view that needs such special protection has already betrayed its true worth, in my opinion.
 
Upvote 0

Zoness

667, neighbor of the beast
Supporter
Jul 21, 2008
8,384
1,654
Illinois
✟468,399.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Indeed. Especially if doubt is penalized, former members are ostracized or threatened, or - as in the case of at least one world religion - if apostasy is treated as a capital offense.
Any world view that needs such special protection has already betrayed its true worth, in my opinion.

I agree; if it is really a universal truth it should be able to stand on its own and not require the law or violence to enforce adherence to it.
 
Upvote 0

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟168,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
And I just thought of another criterion: equating adherence to your own world view with being more moral, and thus regarding non-members as immoral/selfish/evil by default.
Now, there *are* world views that would make it pretty hard not to judge (for example, I would have a hard time relating to racists in a positive fashion, given how they view other people), but what I mean here is specifically related to judging people based on nothing but the fact that they do not believe the same things you do.

I think that's part of the parcel of insulating yourself from other world views, or even from taking a closer, more critical look at your own. It simply makes the prospect of being other that much more daunting, associating it with all sorts of nasty things.
 
Upvote 0
Jan 25, 2013
3,501
476
✟58,340.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Private
Hi LoveBeingAMuslimah.

Salaam Alaikum. Like I wrote to the Christian posters who commented on this thread, I was referring to the absence of Christians and Muslims (there are many Jews in ISM, so with them it is a bit different, even if many of them are not religious) in the groups I worked with, not being active in the struggle against injustice in general, even when it involves taking risks.

Wa Alaikum. Not being in your group does not mean that they are not there with other groups...or even other organizations. Or maybe they were there individually.

How have you come to the conclusion that Muslims are not active in the struggle against injustice in general? From what I have seen, many do even when it can come as a big personal sacrifice because there is always the fear of being accused of terrorism when it comes to Muslims (non-Muslims generally do not have this fear, certainly not to the extent that Muslims do). Moazzam Begg, who was in Guantanamo and was then released without charge (no apology either), has been arrested again with accusations of terrorism just because he was in Syria. His team thinks it's because he was uncovering the UK's complicity in torture. Moazzam himself said this.

Maybe that's a reason why some Muslims are afraid to do much because they know how easily they are arrested when their non-Muslim counterparts would not have as much trouble for doing the exact same thing.

We didn't meet the team in Gaza. The man on the video who was shot was a Palestinian and not a member of ISM. The woman in the headscarf could have been Muslim.
The woman is definitely a Muslim; I found out her identity. The man making the video is a member of ISM, I believe, and he is also a Muslim.
 
Upvote 0

gord44

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2004
4,351
657
✟27,104.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I agree; if it is really a universal truth it should be able to stand on its own and not require the law or violence to enforce adherence to it.

That's how it should work in practice. But the zealots think they need to spread it by the sword.
 
Upvote 0

TG123

Regular Member
Jul 1, 2006
4,964
203
somewhere
✟14,469.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Wa Alaikum. Not being in your group does not mean that they are not there with other groups...or even other organizations. Or maybe they were there individually.

How have you come to the conclusion that Muslims are not active in the struggle against injustice in general? From what I have seen, many do even when it can come as a big personal sacrifice because there is always the fear of being accused of terrorism when it comes to Muslims (non-Muslims generally do not have this fear, certainly not to the extent that Muslims do). Moazzam Begg, who was in Guantanamo and was then released without charge (no apology either), has been arrested again with accusations of terrorism just because he was in Syria. His team thinks it's because he was uncovering the UK's complicity in torture. Moazzam himself said this.

Maybe that's a reason why some Muslims are afraid to do much because they know how easily they are arrested when their non-Muslim counterparts would not have as much trouble for doing the exact same thing.

The woman is definitely a Muslim; I found out her identity. The man making the video is a member of ISM, I believe, and he is also a Muslim.

I am going to sound like a real idiot especially given the fact I often teach English, but I meant to write Muslims and Christians and Jews are not inactive in the struggle against injustice in general. Two letters can make a difference lol.

Thanks for correcting me.

I will be away from the forum until Sunday. Am camping with my wife and Mom and my wife's Mom.

Take care and Allahma3k.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

drjean

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Nov 16, 2011
15,273
4,517
✟313,070.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
OKay on the rant :thumbsup:

God does love His creation....For God so loved the world that He GAVE His only BEGOTTEN Son... that WHOSOEVER will... may come...

I don't believe in atheists. LOL while this may be a catchy funny statement, it really is what I believe. God's Word says there are no atheists.... so while I can understand the "Jewish atheist" as one can be born a Jew but not Jewish in faith, he can also be atheistic in faith...IF I believed in atheists, which I do not.

Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
People are part of God's creation...and thus "know" from within that He exists...God created man in His own image...triune..with the knowledge of the Creator.


Romans 8:
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

We are not to judge the unbelievers...but we are not to compromise our beliefs to work with them, either. We are the salt of the earth and not to isolate from non-believers though... we are to love them...but we are not to love what (sin) they do. :hug:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BaconWizard

Regular Member
Jan 8, 2014
934
37
UK
✟8,742.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
Most Atheists turn out to be Agnostics and the rest are simply anti-god or anti-faith of any description...even dear ol' Dawkins; the Archbishop of Unbelief, in the 'God Delusion' attempts to present a scale of 'unbelief' and hesitates to step onto the top rung himself.

But moving rapidly on and not wanting any repetition of my experiences on an Atheist site...(where I was metaphorically lynched on a daily basis for three months....yes I have masochistic tendencies)...the fact is there are people in all sorts of groups that show basic decency through their shared humanity...in part that is what was shown through the parable of the 'Good Samaritan', as well as being a slap in the face for religious bigots.

Yeah I'd agree with that.
 
Upvote 0

dcalling

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2014
3,184
323
✟107,345.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
TG,
As you said, there are Christian missionaries in far more dangers countries, willing to face death.

And God inspire different people differently. I can't afford to go on trip to Gaza or other places, but if I can, I will go somewhere people are facing mass hunger, or harder persecution. The situation in Gaza is nothing compare to some of Africa countries, or part of Syria, Iraq, where Christians, Kurds, Yazdis, Shia muslims (and even some Sunies) were tortured, killed, drained of their blood, even their children or infants beheaded. I got banned for a week for posting such pictures.

People have their own callings, and only God can weight them.
 
Upvote 0
Jan 25, 2013
3,501
476
✟58,340.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Private
I am going to sound like a real idiot especially given the fact I often teach English, but I meant to write Muslims and Christians and Jews are not inactive in the struggle against injustice in general. Two letters can make a difference lol.

Ahhh, ok.

That reminds me of this:

20zpqjc.jpg



I will be away from the forum until Sunday. Am camping with my wife and Mom and my wife's Mom.

Take care and Allahma3k.

Sounds like fun! I hope you have a great time.
 
Upvote 0

TG123

Regular Member
Jul 1, 2006
4,964
203
somewhere
✟14,469.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
TG,
As you said, there are Christian missionaries in far more dangers countries, willing to face death.

And God inspire different people differently. I can't afford to go on trip to Gaza or other places, but if I can, I will go somewhere people are facing mass hunger, or harder persecution. The situation in Gaza is nothing compare to some of Africa countries, or part of Syria, Iraq, where Christians, Kurds, Yazdis, Shia muslims (and even some Sunies) were tortured, killed, drained of their blood, even their children or infants beheaded. I got banned for a week for posting such pictures.

People have their own callings, and only God can weight them.
Thank you for your post, dcalling. As I told others here, I very badly phrased my words on this thread. I wanted to say that I met some atheists who are great people, in spite of their unbelief. I also meant to ask why most of the volunteers in ISM and NMD (groups I worked with in Palestine and Arizona) were atheists, and not other Christians or others who believe in God- like religious Jews and Muslims.

I accidentally made it sound like I don't believe that my brothers and sisters in Christ- or Muslims or Jews- aren't serving the poor and working for justice in other ways. I also made it sound like activism of the type I engaged in is the only way to build God's Kingdom.

I did not mean to imply these things, but my poor choosing of words evidently did.

I apologize to you and to all others who have read this thread.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TG123

Regular Member
Jul 1, 2006
4,964
203
somewhere
✟14,469.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0