Challenging the Eschatological View that America is God's New Israel

[The Dark Knight]

It has been the case in the U.S that many have long advocated for the ideology that God somehow sees the U.S as a "New Israel" of sorts - predominately due to the viewpoint that the U.S was founded on Christian principles and that its expansion has arisen as a means of supernatural blessing.

However, from what I've studied, it seems the U.S has never, at ANY point, been God’s covenant nation who operates with Divine sanction...

You are correct.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

One should't speak on what the Bible says if not truly dealing with the whole of what the text says - as it doesn't honor the Lord.

Most of the world's Jews remain unbelievers, and in fact are often antagonistic toward the Christian faith.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Most of the world's Jews remain unbelievers, and in fact are often antagonistic toward the Christian faith.

None of that has anything to do with the bottom line reality that Jewish believers have been coming to the Lord extensively - in addition to the fact that Jewish believers were always present throughout history in the early body of believers. The amount of Jewish believers in the Church is extensive - for anyone remotely aware of the history of Jewish believers in the Body of Christ and Messianic Jews today. There are an estimated 175,000 to 250,000 Messianic Jews in the U.S. and 350,000 worldwide, according to various counts...although they are a tiny minority in Israel -- just 10,000-20,000 people by some estimates -- but growing, according to both its proponents and critics. The Church has always been Jew and Gentile - all of whom are God's Israel, the Israel of God.

And Jews have been coming in droves - regardless of others who remain unbelievers, just as there are Gentiles who remain unbelievers while there are others who choose to trust in Messiah - with high numbers on both sides. This is the concept of Romans 11 in context - as Paul noted repeatedly (as a Jew) how he wanted to see all of the Jewish people saved and prayed for such. But that did not mean he was of the mindset that NO Jews were saved in high numbers when it came to the Gospel since the early church - with others saved in the thousands and rapidly growing - was originally Jewish.....and not surprising seeing how Jesus himself was Jewish.

As said earlier, on Romans 11, as another Messianic Jew on CF noted wisely as it concerns the concept of how all Jews will be saved at some point:

Right now, with the nation of Israel's rejection of Yeshua, salvation has come to the Gentiles, so for salvation, God is dealing with individuals for the promise of eternal salvation. That does not mean that God does not still work with Israel as a nation.

..... scripture says all Israel will be saved. Again, a working of God on the nation of Israel.

How will this be done?

Well, going back to the Tenakh, the judges and priests were to set the manner in which the law would be done. When the Messiah arrives, the Priests were to greet the Messiah, who was to enter the eastern gate with the Messianic greeting of 'blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord'. At that point, all of Israel was to welcome the Messiah and receive Him as the Messiah.

Yet, we know that when Yeshua entered the eastern gate, the Jewish people were shouting the Messianic greeting and the Pharisees (who were judges), were attempting to silence the people. Yeshua went up to the Temple, and the priests, rather then greeting Him as the Messiah, challenged Him, trying to trip Yeshua up with questions. This is probably the saddest day in Jewish history, as the Priests and judges had rejected Yeshua rather then giving Him the Messianic greeting, so Israel did not nationally accept Yeshua as Messiah at that time. That there was not national acceptance, that did not stop individuals from recognizing Jesus.

In response, Yeshua tells the leadership:

Matthew 23:
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”​

So, what is this saying? That sometime in the future, the leadership of Israel will see the Lord triumphantly step down on the Mt of Olives and follow the winding road to enter the eastern gate, and at that time the leadership will recognize Him for Who He is and give Him the Messianic greeting 'Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord'. At that time, all of Israel who are alive, will receive Yeshua as Messiah and Lord. At that time will be a national salvation of Israel, when all living will be saved. So, at that time, there will be children of Israel who are unsaved, who will become saved.​

That there was not national acceptance, that did not stop individuals from recognizing Jesus.

Again, There are many Jews who have recognized and embraced Jesus as their Messiah, and there may yet be many more. I certainly hope and pray that many more Jews will turn to Christ. But the fact remains that the salvation of all people--Jew and Gentile alike--is found exclusively in Christ.

What God is doing globally is pretty amazing when seeing his workings

In example, I was blessed some time ago to come across an excellent read - in regards to those concerned about what the Lord is doing with Israeli State when it comes to the connections made with Asia and the ways that others passionate for Jewish culture on that side of the street are coming to faith in Messiah. The read is called "Israel and God's Tsunami" and it's by a man known as Peter Tsukahira - an Asian American Israeli who is married to a Messianic Jew .

​

For more:​

• 
  God's Tsunami - Peter Tsukahira's blog
• The Restoration of Israeli Missions​
• Peter Tsukahira | TiAC | The Israel Asia Connection​
  
  
  
  
  
  Peter Tsukahira - "LEARNING BY THE SPIRIT" - September 8, 2012 ...
  Word from Mount Carmel, Peter Tsukahira - The High Price of Cheap Grace ​
  
  
  

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You are correct.

Thanks

 

[OldWiseGuy]

None of that has anything to do with the bottom line reality that Jewish believers have been coming to the Lord extensively - in addition to the fact that Jewish believers were always present throughout history in the early body of believers. The amount of Jewish believers in the Church is extensive - for anyone remotely aware of the history of Jewish believers in the Body of Christ and Messianic Jews today. There are an estimated 175,000 to 250,000 Messianic Jews in the U.S. and 350,000 worldwide, according to various counts...although they are a tiny minority in Israel -- just 10,000-20,000 people by some estimates -- but growing, according to both its proponents and critics. The Church has always been Jew and Gentile - all of whom are God's Israel, the Israel of God.

Certainly. Some of the disciples were Jews. Jews came to Jesus secretly confessing belief. But the house of Judah, the vast number of latter day descendants have not. Don"t conflate race and grace. Those Jews who are called are indeed the elect (graceJ), but they are not the House of Judah (race).

 

[OldWiseGuy]

British Israelism has been disproven by science, history, and linguistics.

It is a false, racist, evil, and anti-Christian...let alone anti-civilization and anti-human conspiracy theory that should be completely expunged.

It has absolutely no place in this reality and society should reeducate its adherents.

Once again you seem to be especially bothered by this subject. Do you mind revealing why this is? And can you support these negative assertions against this theory?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Certainly. Some of the disciples were Jews.]

Incorrect, as it concerns the fact that ALL the disciples/apostles were Jews. Again, history is history - and there's no avoiding that reality if being honest on it. Every Apostle was Jewish and that has long been discussed/supported within Orthodoxy.

Jews came to Jesus secretly confessing belief. But the house of Judah, the vast number of latter day descendants have not. Don"t conflate race and grace. Those Jews who are called are indeed the elect (graceJ), but they are not the House of Judah (race).

The house of Judah was the one who was already present/in dominance - with their descendants coming in VAST number. Don't misuse terms - as there is only one race...the human race....and it's ignoring history to even try forgetting that simple reality. Those Jews who are called elect are OF the House of Judah, as well as that of Israel (Northern Kingdom) - for it was already the case that in the days of Yeshua those who were of the 12 tribes were universally called Jews - and it's a basic fact that is repeatedly ignored within circles advocating British Israelism.

Anything else is making things up (As said before) as one goes along - and it's anti-semitism.

 

[PaladinValer]

There is no etymological link between Hebrew or Aramaic and Old English.

There is no biological link either; the DNA between people of Anglo-Saxon and Hebrew ethnicity doesn't match.

There is no historic link; the ancestors of the Angles and Saxons were in lower Scandinavia when the Hebrews were expelled.

 

[Literalist]

True PV

And Herbert W. Armstrong, a former SDA was a false prophet in his day [said he was God's end time prophet]

Armstrong told that Hitler was the "antichrist" and Mussolini was the false prophet

He was wrong .... and he gave many other false prophecied

This proves that British/Israelism is a fraud

There are splinter groups today who still claim to the ruse, but have had to distance themselves from Armstrong

There is absolutely 0 scriptural support for this perverted racially biased belief .... Armstrong and others have simply made it up

And you will not like this, but if you are of the RCC, I would suggest that you take a very close look at what you follow .... I see many difficulties with RCC tradition

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Incorrect, as it concerns the fact that ALL the disciples/apostles were Jews. Again, history is history - and there's no avoiding that reality if being honest on it. Every Apostle was Jewish and that has long been discussed/supported within Orthodoxy.

The house of Judah was the one who was already present/in dominance - with their descendants coming in VAST number. Don't misuse terms - as there is only one race...the human race....and it's ignoring history to even try forgetting that simple reality. Those Jews who are called elect are OF the House of Judah, as well as that of Israel (Northern Kingdom) - for it was already the case that in the days of Yeshua those who were of the 12 tribes were universally called Jews - and it's a basic fact that is repeatedly ignored within circles advocating British Israelism.

Anything else is making things up (As said before) as one goes along - and it's anti-semitism.

You clearly don't understand what 'Jew' meant in Jesus day. Paul was a "Jew of the Jews", yet revealed his ethnicity as Benjamite. You are still conflating the social, political, and religious identity with the national/ethnic identity.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You clearly don't understand what 'Jew' meant in Jesus day. .Paul was a "Jew of the Jews", yet revealed his ethnicity as Benjamite. You are still conflating the social, political, and religious identity with the national/ethnic identity

Sounds cute...but it's not really credible coming from someone who said some of the disciples were Jewish - and as said before, whenever there's ignorance of what was actually said in history and no real awareness of what terms were used like, such things occur. Seeing that you've already made a couple of comments ignoring history and what other Jews already said, it's apparent you don't know what it means to be a Jew - and, as said before, making it up as you go along. It's sad enough when one has to speak in avoidance of basics in history as if other Jewish people haven't spoken on it since the 1st century (in the Church) and previously....

As noted elsewhere:

The blessing of Jacob upon the sons of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, bestowed upon them and their descendants the blessing of Abraham and the promise of God. Great Britain and the United States are these descendants according to the British-Israelism theory. One problem with this scenario is found in II Chronicles 30:1 which reads: "And Hezekiah wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh that they should come to the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, to keep the Passover unto the Lord God of Israel." Further, II Chron. 30:18 states that "many of Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebu¬lum came to Jerusalem." This event occurred sometime after the Assyrian invasion and the carrying away of Israel. In the year B.C. 628, Josiah called Israel and Judah to observe the Passover. In II Chronicles 34:9 it is recorded that Ephraim and Manasseh contributed to the rebuilding of the Temple by Josiah. If the Northern Tribes were swept away and especially the bearers of the birthright, Ephraim and Manasseh, how could they be present years later at these feasts? In Luke 2:36 it is recorded that Jesus was found at the Temple by a prophetess named Anna, of the tribe of Asher. If Asher had disappeared into Assyrian captivity, who had kept the lineage of Anna's family?
​

It's foolish even trying to use the "Well Paul was a Benjamite, Not a Jew!!" line (based on Romans 11:1-3 /Philippians 3:4-6 ) as if that has not been addressed already - although it is typical in many circles for anti-Semitism against the Jews - since it's fact that all of the tribes in the days of Christ were labeled as Jews. No amount of protesting or trying to reimagine things on the issue will ever change what scholars have pointed out for centuries...as it's dishonest and others have noted that before. This goes back to understanding the use of the terms "Israel" and "Judah", when choosing to be intellectually honest in following the history of Israel from at least the time of the Davidic monarchy:

• Under Saul, David, and Solomon, there existed what is known as "the United Monarchy"....all 12 tribes were united under a single political head
• However, after Solomon, there was a division in the nation. The tribes of Judah and Benjamin maintained loyalty to the House of David, and followed Solomon's son, Reheboam.These southern tribes took the name "Judah", for the larger of the two tribes (I Kings 12-13 ).
• The remaining 10 tribes followed Solomon's servant, Jereboam, and they maintained the name "Israel" because they represented the lion's share of the Israeli population.
• In 722BCE the Northern Kingdom was dissolved when the Assyrian empire blew through and scattered them (II Kings 17).
• A similar thing occurred to the Southern Kingdom about 586BCE. However, the Southern Kingdom was able to retain a visible unified identity, largely as a result of fidelity to the Lord.
• When Cyrus released the Jewish nation to return home, any native of Israel was allowed to return. Tribal affiliation was irrelevant. Not only Judah, but Gad, Asher, Issachar, Manasseh, etc. all returned to The Land. At this point, "Jew" began to refer to any member of the 12 tribes. It was no longer restricted to the tribe of Judah and Judah then served to designate the unified national body of all 12 tribes, not a singular tribal affiliation.

Today, all the terms--Hebrew, Jew, Israel--are all synonymous and interchangeable. During the divided Kingdom, some of all 12 tribes lived in the land called Judea. Judea, because the largest tribe residing there was Judah, like the largest tribe in the Northern Kingdom was Ephraim. After the capture of the Northern Kingdom by Assyria, some of the people escaped to Judea. When Babylon capture Judea, and carried off the children of Israel (all tribes) living in Judea, the Babylonians called the people, Jews, for Judea. Since that time, the children of Israel have called themselves Jews as evidenced first in the book of Esther, which takes place during the captivity.

Thus, the term Jew refers to all 12 tribes. And has from the beginning of the use of the term. Later, Babylon defeated Assyria, so all 12 tribes were subject to Babylon and called Jews.

Most of this was already covered earlier - as seen in #56 and #71. As said before, there's alot of scriptural reference in the NT showing how all within Israel who remained alongside Judah were called "Jews" and there was unity. Paul already mentioned in Acts 26:7 that the 12 tribes were present when speaking about all of them hoping in the promises of God. James also wrote his letter to the 12 tribes, as seen in James 1:1..and the dispersed do show up in scripture as not being lost as a whole. For the New Testament mentions Anna from the tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36-37). They were scattered, as it concerns the 10 Lost Tribes, but not destroyed and removed without a trace.

As Messianic Jew, Dr.Brown said best (for a brief excerpt):

What happened to the tribes of the kingdom of Israel? (1) Some of the people remained in Samaria and became known as the Samaritans. They consider themselves to be true Israelites, but other Jews, especially in ancient times, have considered them to be half-breeds. (2) Some of the people may have made their way to Judah and became incorporated into the larger “Jewish” population (see especially 2 Chronicles 34:3-9, which indicates that a remnant of the ten northern tribes remained intact after the Assyrian exile). This is reflected in New Testament references that speak of “the twelve tribes of Israel” (see Acts 26:7; James 1:1), indicating that this was the conscious understanding of the Jews in New Testament times, namely that they represented the twelve tribes of Israel and not just Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Note also that the twelve tribes of Israel remain part of God’s future plans (see, e.g., Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30). (3) Some of the people became completely assimilated into the nations where they were scattered and have become lost to history (but not to myth!). (4) Some may have actually retained their Israelite-Jewish origins, retaining their ancient traditions and continuing to preserve a conscious identification as Israelites or Jews. Among these would be groups such as the Ethiopian Jews.
​

It has yet to be the case where true addressment of scripture has occurred on your part - for anyone can say quips or statements of how they think something is...but that's not dealing with scripture or history. Seriously, as you're avoiding basic facts on how the social/political and religious identity was, don't dazzle with fluff if one cannot substantiate with facts - for that happens enough whenever one has to advocate for British Israelism on other things that have zero facts.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There is no etymological link between Hebrew or Aramaic and Old English.

There is no biological link either; the DNA between people of Anglo-Saxon and Hebrew ethnicity doesn't match.

There is no historic link; the ancestors of the Angles and Saxons were in lower Scandinavia when the Hebrews were expelled.

Generally, as said before, people have to speak ignorantly of history in order to make the claims they do when it comes to British Israelism - be it in any attempts at trying to claim the Jewish people are not who they say they are ....or speaking past the fact that the Jewish people went around the world as scripture notes and that those from both the Northern Kingdom/Southern Kingdom were universally called Jews (whenever there's a racist attempt to claim "Well, only those from Judah were called Jews while we - the Israelites/Anglo-Saxxons - are the ones who serve the Lord" and a host of other things that border on idiocy).

It's a pity - but it happens nonetheless whenever there's dedication to making scripture say what others want it to say rather than dealing with it as it is.

• Anglo-Israelism Refuted
• British Israelism Debunked
• Why British-Israelism is Wrong
• British Israelism - Apologetics Index
• British Israelism - Wrested Scriptures
• Anglo/British-Israelism: A DETAILED REFUTATION
• British Israelism: A Mirage - Quartz Hill School of Theology
• British Israelism Exposed - shalom messianic congregation
• A Broken Key: the Case Against British Israelism (Part One)
• A Broken Key: The Case Against British Israelism (Part Two)
• A Broken Key: The Case Against British Israelism–Part Three
• Welcome to Cephas Ministries - Cephas Files - British Israelism
• The Myth of British-Israelism - Dr. Claude Mariottini - Professor of
• Anglo-Israelism Refuted | Mistaken Identity - The Preterist Archive
• DESTROYING THE MYTH (British Israelism) - For His Glory Ministry

</DIV>

Chuck Missler did an excellent job of addressing the issue before in one of his sermons:

British Israelism Myths - Chuck Missler

​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

True PV

And Herbert W. Armstrong, a former SDA was a false prophet in his day [said he was God's end time prophet]

Armstrong told that Hitler was the "antichrist" and Mussolini was the false prophet

He was wrong .... and he gave many other false prophecied

This proves that British/Israelism is a fraud

 

[Interplanner]

After a quick look at #113, and seeing the number of responses here, it is really incredible how poorly taught Christians are especially among those pursuing "Prophecy" or "eschatology." The term 'new Israel' is in the title of this thread. A person should then go to the places the NT mentions or implies this; see what the background is and case closed.

In light of Rom 9:6 or Gal 6, this is a non-topic.

IF you missed the fact that this 'new' turn (on many OT Themes) has no genealogical connection to it, then you need to spend several hours in Hebrews, Romans and Galatians, and get off the bloody i.net

 

[Gxg (G²)]

After a quick look at #113, and seeing the number of responses here, it is really incredible how poorly taught Christians are especially among those pursuing "Prophecy" or "eschatology." The term 'new Israel' is in the title of this thread. A person should then go to the places the NT mentions or implies this; see what the background is and case closed.

In light of Rom 9:6 or Gal 6, this is a non-topic.

IF you missed the fact that this 'new' turn (on many OT Themes) has no genealogical connection to it, then you need to spend several hours in Hebrews, Romans and Galatians, and get off the bloody i.net

Context wise, God can include any (as was already mentioned) into the Israel of God - Jew and Gentile - who trust in Him..and that includes people from every nation. That, however, is different than saying that a single nation/ethnic group is representative alone of all that were present in Israel (INCLUDING genetically) - and that will always be an issue.

If one missed that being a part of the New Israel (which was never solely about genealogical connection) was NEVER the same as saying that all people in a nation are genetically the Israel of the OT (as the focus of the OP was). Going through the book of Revelation/Romans Galatians and James as well as other places (in addition to the Old Testament ) makes a world of difference in understanding the basic distinctions...some of that already noted earlier ( #21 #56 #72 #94 #100 ).

As said before, Jesus is King of the entire world

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Sounds cute...but it's not really credible coming from someone who said some of the disciples were Jewish - and as said before, whenever there's ignorance of what was actually said in history and no real awareness of what terms were used like, such things occur. Seeing that you've already made a couple of comments ignoring history and what other Jews already said, it's apparent you don't know what it means to be a Jew - and, as said before, making it up as you go along. It's sad enough when one has to speak in avoidance of basics in history as if other Jewish people haven't spoken on it since the 1st century (in the Church) and previously....

As noted elsewhere:

The blessing of Jacob upon the sons of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, bestowed upon them and their descendants the blessing of Abraham and the promise of God. Great Britain and the United States are these descendants according to the British-Israelism theory. One problem with this scenario is found in II Chronicles 30:1 which reads: "And Hezekiah wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh that they should come to the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, to keep the Passover unto the Lord God of Israel." Further, II Chron. 30:18 states that "many of Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebu¬lum came to Jerusalem." This event occurred sometime after the Assyrian invasion and the carrying away of Israel. In the year B.C. 628, Josiah called Israel and Judah to observe the Passover. In II Chronicles 34:9 it is recorded that Ephraim and Manasseh contributed to the rebuilding of the Temple by Josiah. If the Northern Tribes were swept away and especially the bearers of the birthright, Ephraim and Manasseh, how could they be present years later at these feasts? In Luke 2:36 it is recorded that Jesus was found at the Temple by a prophetess named Anna, of the tribe of Asher. If Asher had disappeared into Assyrian captivity, who had kept the lineage of Anna's family?
​

It's foolish even trying to use the "Well Paul was a Benjamite, Not a Jew!!" line (based on Romans 11:1-3 /Philippians 3:4-6 ) as if that has not been addressed already - although it is typical in many circles for anti-Semitism against the Jews - since it's fact that all of the tribes in the days of Christ were labeled as Jews. No amount of protesting or trying to reimagine things on the issue will ever change what scholars have pointed out for centuries...as it's dishonest and others have noted that before. This goes back to understanding the use of the terms "Israel" and "Judah", when choosing to be intellectually honest in following the history of Israel from at least the time of the Davidic monarchy:

• Under Saul, David, and Solomon, there existed what is known as "the United Monarchy"....all 12 tribes were united under a single political head
• However, after Solomon, there was a division in the nation. The tribes of Judah and Benjamin maintained loyalty to the House of David, and followed Solomon's son, Reheboam.These southern tribes took the name "Judah", for the larger of the two tribes (I Kings 12-13 ).
• The remaining 10 tribes followed Solomon's servant, Jereboam, and they maintained the name "Israel" because they represented the lion's share of the Israeli population.
• In 722BCE the Northern Kingdom was dissolved when the Assyrian empire blew through and scattered them (II Kings 17).
• A similar thing occurred to the Southern Kingdom about 586BCE. However, the Southern Kingdom was able to retain a visible unified identity, largely as a result of fidelity to the Lord.
• When Cyrus released the Jewish nation to return home, any native of Israel was allowed to return. Tribal affiliation was irrelevant. Not only Judah, but Gad, Asher, Issachar, Manasseh, etc. all returned to The Land. At this point, "Jew" began to refer to any member of the 12 tribes. It was no longer restricted to the tribe of Judah and Judah then served to designate the unified national body of all 12 tribes, not a singular tribal affiliation.

Today, all the terms--Hebrew, Jew, Israel--are all synonymous and interchangeable. During the divided Kingdom, some of all 12 tribes lived in the land called Judea. Judea, because the largest tribe residing there was Judah, like the largest tribe in the Northern Kingdom was Ephraim. After the capture of the Northern Kingdom by Assyria, some of the people escaped to Judea. When Babylon capture Judea, and carried off the children of Israel (all tribes) living in Judea, the Babylonians called the people, Jews, for Judea. Since that time, the children of Israel have called themselves Jews as evidenced first in the book of Esther, which takes place during the captivity.

Thus, the term Jew refers to all 12 tribes. And has from the beginning of the use of the term. Later, Babylon defeated Assyria, so all 12 tribes were subject to Babylon and called Jews.

Most of this was already covered earlier - as seen in #56 and #71. As said before, there's alot of scriptural reference in the NT showing how all within Israel who remained alongside Judah were called "Jews" and there was unity. Paul already mentioned in Acts 26:7 that the 12 tribes were present when speaking about all of them hoping in the promises of God. James also wrote his letter to the 12 tribes, as seen in James 1:1..and the dispersed do show up in scripture as not being lost as a whole. For the New Testament mentions Anna from the tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36-37). They were scattered, as it concerns the 10 Lost Tribes, but not destroyed and removed without a trace.

As Messianic Jew, Dr.Brown said best (for a brief excerpt):

What happened to the tribes of the kingdom of Israel? (1) Some of the people remained in Samaria and became known as the Samaritans. They consider themselves to be true Israelites, but other Jews, especially in ancient times, have considered them to be half-breeds. (2) Some of the people may have made their way to Judah and became incorporated into the larger “Jewish” population (see especially 2 Chronicles 34:3-9, which indicates that a remnant of the ten northern tribes remained intact after the Assyrian exile). This is reflected in New Testament references that speak of “the twelve tribes of Israel” (see Acts 26:7; James 1:1), indicating that this was the conscious understanding of the Jews in New Testament times, namely that they represented the twelve tribes of Israel and not just Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Note also that the twelve tribes of Israel remain part of God’s future plans (see, e.g., Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30). (3) Some of the people became completely assimilated into the nations where they were scattered and have become lost to history (but not to myth!). (4) Some may have actually retained their Israelite-Jewish origins, retaining their ancient traditions and continuing to preserve a conscious identification as Israelites or Jews. Among these would be groups such as the Ethiopian Jews.
​

It has yet to be the case where true addressment of scripture has occurred on your part - for anyone can say quips or statements of how they think something is...but that's not dealing with scripture or history. Seriously, as you're avoiding basic facts on how the social/political and religious identity was, don't dazzle with fluff if one cannot substantiate with facts - for that happens enough whenever one has to advocate for British Israelism on other things that have zero facts.

You spent a lot of energy making my point for me (although you didn't intend to). Everyone else called them 'Jews', but they did not consider themselves entirely so as is evidenced by their retaining their tribal identity. Someone could call me a Jew, even print it on my passport. That doesn't make me a Jew. By your reckoning anyone who lives in modern Israel today is necessarily a 'Jew'.

James indeed wrote to the scattered ten tribes of Israel, reinforcing their tribal identities. He didn't address them as Jews. Those 'gathered' in Judea were 'Jews'. As you can't build the same fence around those scattered ones they are free to retain their true ethnic identity.

And why would God restore their identity, separate from the 'Jews' in the end time? Whenever the twelve, or ten, tribes are mentioned the tribal distinction is automatically implied.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You spent a lot of energy making my point for me (although you didn't intend to)..

You actually spent a good amount of time skipping past what others had already noted (whether you realize or not, as others have pointed out) - as well as continuing with the anti-semetic commentary when it comes to ignoring the bottom line reality that Jews are a part of the Church...that Israel includes ALL Jewish people coming to Yeshua as Messiah and that the Apostles all understood that the 12 tribes were deemed Jewish...not the silliness of saying that Judah is cut off/Jews are not a part of the Church and Israel is left over.

Everyone else called them 'Jews', but they did not consider themselves entirely so as is evidenced by their retaining their tribal identity .Someone could call me a Jew, even print it on my passport. That doesn't make me a Jew. By your reckoning anyone who lives in modern Israel today is necessarily a 'Jew'.

Wrong - and the fact that one has to ignore the rest of what was said (specifically, that the Hebrews had no problem calling themselves Jews since it was appropriate) is enough of an issue.

Again, context - as it was not a matter of them not considering themselves entirely - and you again spent a needless amount of time making an argument on what was never said. It was already noted before repeatedly (and in reference) that not everyone in the Modern Israeli State is Jewish - thus making the argument you tried to place forth MOOT since it was not about living in the Israeli State as a means of being Jewish. What was of note was the fact that those who were Jewish had an ethnic background they all came from - even though they went all over the world - and they can verify it on multiple levels.

That is nowhere near the same as the silliness of what was advocated when it came to trying to argue that Judah/Jews are not a part of the Church while Christians (deemed to be Israel) are - for that is anti-Semitic and nowhere in history whatsoever.

James indeed wrote to the scattered ten tribes of Israel, reinforcing their tribal identities. He didn't address them as Jews.

And why would God restore their identity, separate from the 'Jews' in the end time? Whenever the twelve, or ten, tribes are mentioned the tribal distinction is automatically implied

Didn't need to - seeing that the term "Jew" was already used of the people by other Hebrews repeatedly - and the bottom line reality is that the tribes from the Southern Kingdom...the same one others try to exclusively deem as being "Jews" alone (i.e. Judah and Benjamin)...were already considered to be ISRAEL and noted as such since the terms were interchangeable.

Thus, once again, you have no point and argue against yourself. There was no separation from being a Jew when it came to tribal distinction - as it was never the case that one was deemed not "Jew" if they came from the tribe of Asher, Gad or other Northern Tribes since the bottom line was that to be a Jew was to be a Hebrew or of Israel. To argue against that is making mountains out of molehills and trying to create problems where there were never any.

As said before, there's no need making things up as you go along - for the arguments for British Israelism (which you've given out in textbook fashion) are baseless and not logical at any point.

Again, making it up as you go along is not Biblical - nor is there any point trying to continue defending British Israelism when the theological system is corrupt enough.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There is no historic link; the ancestors of the Angles and Saxons were in lower Scandinavia when the Hebrews were expelled.

The genetic issue is big issue all by itself...

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You actually spent a good amount of time skipping past what others had already noted - as well as continuing with the anti-semetic commentary when it comes to ignoring the bottom line reality that Jews are a part of the Church...that Israel includes ALL Jewish people coming to Yeshua as Messiah and that the Apostles all understood that the 12 tribes were deemed Jewish...not the silliness of saying that Judah is cut off and Israel is left over.

Again, making it up as you go along is not Biblical - nor is there any point trying to continue defending British Israelism when the theological system is corrupt enough.

To repeat; British Israelism is not theology, it's historical prophecy.

We're still not on the same page here. We are talking about two different groups. I am talking about ethnic Jews and you are talking about spiritual Jews. Granted were all 'spiritual Jews', but when that distinction is agreed upon we still have our ethnic identities. The prophecies I'm referring to have little to do with spiritual Israel, the church, but have everything to do with material promises made Joseph. You are bringing a baseball bat to a tennis match.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

To repeat; British Israelism is not theology, it's historical prophecy. .

As said before, any system of thought saying that a certain view is Biblical will be a system of theology - and there's no escaping that. It'd be ignoring basics to try fighting that seeing that anything placed within the realm of prophecy (be it historical from a past perspective or future one) is a matter of ESCHATOLOGY - the study of future events and seeing how things have happened line up with that. And Eschatology is within the realm of THEOLOGY - the study of God.

And as others have already noted, there's Zero eschatological evidence for British Israelism - as it has been debunked numerous times and is an anti-Semitic/racist system of thought that avoids history repeatedly. It is only "prophecy" for anyone who doesn't understand basics in history or wants to rewrite history to make it fit what they want.

Moreover, it is NOT welcome here in this thread...as it does not honor the Jewish people/Jewish believers in the Lord nor is it Biblically appropriate.

We're still not on the same page here. We are talking about two different groups. I am talking about ethnic Jews and you are talking about spiritual Jews. Granted were all 'spiritual Jews', but when that distinction is agreed upon we still have our ethnic identities. The prophecies I'm referring to have little to do with spiritual Israel, the church, but have everything to do with material promises made Joseph. You are bringing a baseball bat to a tennis match

Wrong (again) - and judging by the response, an indication that one reads past what another has said as well as reading into it beyond what was said. For it was already mentioned before plainly where those who are ethnic Jews and Spiritual Jews were in focus (as discussed in #21 #56 #72 #94 #100 ) - with it being noted earlier that no Jewish individual advocates British Israelism since it is exclusively a GENTILE viewpoint...advocated by Gentiles...who have identity issues and struggles toward Jewish people as evidenced by the continual claims that ethnic Jews are NOT a part of the Church or that it was only "some" of the Apostles/disciples (rather than ALL of them - including Yeshua/Jesus ) that were Jewish. And as noted before, you've already avoided that as well as several other things. The issue is not about being on the same page as much as selective addressment of what the OP issue is about - and failing to keep up. Moreover, none of the prophecies you brought up have anything to do (as it concerns your interpretation) with the context they occurred in - and British Israelism is notorious for the intellectual dishonest that often accompanies it when trying to make arguments NONE of the Hebrews ever made in regards to Joseph.

As said before, you are making things up as you go along - and it really can be done elsewhere since God's Word is too significant to be trivial with. No one goes on a discussion meeting focusing on who the 42nd and 39th president is/what they did and says "Well I think Thomas Jefferson was wonderful and he's the best president!!" - for no one cares on that since that is NOT the issue for discussion, nor is giving their opinion the equivalent of giving facts...just as it'd not matter whether or not someone liked Track&Field/came prepared for that when the reality is that the focus was football.

Whenever one advocates British Israelism, they advocate Anti-Semitism - whether they realize or not....regardless of whether they wish to admit it or not, as it's implicit in the theological system whenever people try to advocate for it. And it is not going to happen in this thread further.