Challenging the Eschatological View that America is God's New Israel

Gxg (G²)

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Antagonistic Church of England?

With all due respect, it is the Puritans who were at fault. They wanted what they couldn't get, while being given full representation and voice, and instead of accepting the fullness of the faith, they rebelled, martyred the king and archbishop, and drove the Church underground...and the people HATED it so much that they asked for the Church and monarchy restored!

The Puritans kicked themselves out.
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If I may ask,

What exactly would your references be for the issue of what you noted on the Puritans being the ones at fault for what they experienced? I've not heard till now that it was somehow the case that they killed the king - and if you have any books or online resources in mind, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Now, with that aside taken care off...

...the idea that America is God's New Israel, depending on how you use the term "Israel", is either nothing more than 19th century ce-type Nationalism or, perhaps even worse, British Israelist racism and heresy. It may be even both. Either way, history has shown the extreme dangers associated with both and they have no place within orthodox Christianity.

I am a good and proud citizen of my country, but I don't act like a haughty jerk about it like many sadly do. Each country contributes or should, and while American hegemony may be here to stay, it doesn't mean Americans should lord it over others. If anything, we should be preparing the world for a global-level hegemony instead of being selfish
Agreed 100%

God is sovereign over ALL the nations - from the U.S to Cuba ( #16 ) to Iraq and many other places...And as one of my friends said best:
Listen to me very carefully, the God who is Sovereign over Cuba and China is the same God who is Sovereign over America and Great Britain. The same God who is Sovereign over China and Sudan is the same God who is Sovereign over Canada and Mexico. God’s sovereignty (reign) has not been, is not currently and never will be effected by man made institutions, if so He is no longer God by the very definition it takes to be God!
__________________
 
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PaladinValer

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Gxg (G²);62744211 said:
If I may ask,

What exactly would your references be for the issue of what you noted on the Puritans being the ones at fault for what they experienced? I've not heard till now that it was somehow the case that they killed the king - and if you have any books or online resources in mind, I'd greatly appreciate it.

The Puritans were the English people who thought that the Church in England had not "purified" itself enough from old Roman Catholicism; they wanted to eliminate readings from the Deuterocanon, be rid of bishops, vestments, and the sign of the cross, and many did not believe in the Real Presence. These were things that Anglicanism historically believed in and rightly because they are proven historical beliefs of Christianity.

The Puritans petitioned everyone from the bishops to the kings and queens themselves, but never got an answer they liked. The whole King James Version was a product of Puritans asking King James I for a new translation of the Bible. They wanted an Anglican version of the Geneva. What they got was, for the time, the best Biblical scholarship and a very Anglican translation that retained the Deuterocanonical books and had all the traditional readings that the Puritans didn't like (because Puritan theology was very unbiblical anyhow).

So when King St. Charles Stuart I, in his role as Supreme Governor of the Church of the United Kingdom, attempted to make Anglicanism official throughout the entire kingdom by establishing it in Scotland, the people there threw a hissy fit and in the end, made a martyr out of the king as well as the Archbishop of Canterbury of the time, St. William Laud.

Their holy experiment FAILED. The English people HATED what they did, even most of the more mild Puritans. Heck, they KILLED CHRISTMAS! Not to mention they were a bunch of liars and Oliver Cromwell made himself a tyrannical dictator. His son barely had a chance to be one as well: the people wanted the monarchy restored as well as Anglicanism to once again be the law of the land instead of being driven underground.

The Oxford Guide to the Book of Common Prayer: A Worldwide Survey is a fine edition to anyone's theological library and an excellent reference when it comes the English religion.
Agreed 100%

God is sovereign over ALL the nations - from the U.S to Cuba ( #16 ) to Iraq and many other places...And as one of my friends said best:[/quote]
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Gxg (G²);62737664 said:
God is faithful..
:thumbsup: :amen:
1 Corin 10:13:
No trial hath taken you -- except human and God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tried above what ye are able, but He will make, with the trial, also the outlet, for your being able to bear it.

Rev 3:10
Because thou didst keep the word of My endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the land.
 
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Douggg

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The Roman Empire is no more.

Well I 'll agree with that. We are in the end times. The end times Roman Empire feet of iron and clay came into being in the 1950's with the treaty of Rome. We just haven't gotten to the finalized version of it yet of a ten king kingdom.

This is nothing more than conspiracy theory.

No, it is not a conspiracy theory. It is understanding what the bible says. a conspiracy theory would be something like the bilderbergers are plotting to take over the world, which is something that is not in the bible. I gave you the bible passages, which means it is not a conspiracy theory.

Doug
 
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dana b

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LittleLambofJesus

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So i think that America is the tribe of Ephraim in the "regeneration." Matt.19;28
Do ya think you can make those pictures a little larger? My eye sight isn't as good as it used to be.




.
 
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dana b

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Do ya think you can make those pictures a little larger? My eye sight isn't as good as it used to be.




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And i don't like the blood on the stick.


I wish i could have them two centimeters smaller. But i'v tried and i can't. I'm an agricultural seasonal farm labourer. I'm dumb in modern things, i can only wreck them. All the website designerds take advantage or ignore me even when i pay and i pay. But the internet web does defeat the "false prophet." Now we all see and read the false stuff and the true stuff. End of false prophet media, into lake of fire as of internet.
 
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Douggg

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Do ya think you can make those pictures a little larger? My eye sight isn't as good as it used to be.

.

You can make it as big as you want real easy, yourself. Hold down on the "Ctrl" button on your keyboard, and at the same time press the "+" key. The more times you press the "+", everything will get bigger each time.

To make things smaller, do the same thing but use the "-" key instead of the "+".


Doug
 
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PaladinValer

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British Israelism is psuedohistory, psuedoscience, and is a racist theology that is impossible to reconcile with Christianity.

It belongs in the same bin as other conspiracy theories like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the secret library under the Vatican, and Barack Obama being a non-citizen or being a Muslim.
 
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Douggg

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Yes it is a conspiracy theory. This is all a new teaching... very new.

I don't know what you mean by "teaching". But if you are speaking of the EU, since the EU, and the EEC were not around until the late 1950's those are end times. But the basis for it being the end times Roman Empire is not recent at all and goes back to the time of Daniel and the Babylonian captivity. So it is not a conspiracy theory. It is fulfillment of what was fortold in the bible. Fulfillment of bible prophecy is not a conspiracy theory.


Doug
 
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BlackSepulcher

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Many people believed in manifest destiny, meaning they were destined to claim America. Most American settlers were Protestant, and this belief was no doubt induced, at least partially, by predestination theologies and other religious intrigues.

George Washington is even divinized in certain paintings and such. People went a bit loony about America simply because it was liberation from Europe for the first time in their history.

That being said, it's no surprise that somebody would reach upon an idea that America is the New Israel. The American generations after revolutionary times would've been inclined to agree.
 
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PaladinValer

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I don't know what you mean by "teaching". But if you are speaking of the EU, since the EU, and the EEC were not around until the late 1950's those are end times.

No, they are not. Premillennialism, especially the Dispensationalist kind adhered to today, is nothing more than 19th century ce hogwash.

But the basis for it being the end times Roman Empire is not recent at all and goes back to the time of Daniel and the Babylonian captivity.

Nope. The theology is quite modern and is based on unorthodox interpretations and McCarthy-type Nationalism.

So it is not a conspiracy theory. It is fulfillment of what was fortold in the bible. Fulfillment of bible prophecy is not a conspiracy theory.Doug

It is a conspiracy theory and it is shoddy theology to boot.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Many people believed in manifest destiny, meaning they were destined to claim America. Most American settlers were Protestant, and this belief was no doubt induced, at least partially, by predestination theologies and other religious intrigues.

George Washington is even divinized in certain paintings and such. People went a bit loony about America simply because it was liberation from Europe for the first time in their history.

That being said, it's no surprise that somebody would reach upon an idea that America is the New Israel. The American generations after revolutionary times would've been inclined to agree.
What you say about the history of the American Settlers and their belief in manifest destiny is highly interesting when considering those impacted by it...and the ways that even the Founding Fathers seemed to be later deified over it.

This ties into the issue with how just because others felt themselves inclined to believe in Manifest destiny doesn't mean that they had any real basis for saying their basis was truly a Christian one. As said elsewhere ( #3 , #23 ,#74, #78, #109 , and #111 ), a nation with Christian principles and Christian imagery is not the same as a Christian nation. The only true example of a Christian Nation (or the closet I've seen) is the Byzantine Empire - but in the U.S, so many things occurred that were always far from being CHristian. Manifest Destiny being one of the greatest, as well as the treatment of Indigenious First Nations groups and Blacks.


FreeMasonry/other corrupt religious actions were accepted by the Founders in our country since day 1---something that has NEVER been Christian in our nation and has harmed the U.S since it was allowed and participated in---no different than Israel when it allowed idolatry and witchcraft into the land. All of that is something that goes along with the theocracy dynamic since men accepted FreeMasonry believing they could still have God lead/rule the nation through them...and that's never cool.

And it's present everywhere. It's no surprise that the land has always had the drama it has and has landed up where it is today since many cursings were brought in from the very beginnings-----for it was already an issue when a curse was brought due to the bloodhshed/mistreatment of other groups in the U.S (something many noted would bring God's judgement)....but the evil of Freemasonry sealed a lot.



And when seeing many global issues arising, you'll often see FreeMasonry arising in the background as being connected to and a part of it. For reference:

One man of God I'm aware of - known as G.Craig - actually sought to touch on that one when talking on the ways our culture has been cursed with the tendency to deify others because of precedent



A lot of folks from that era noted that having religious principles found in the Bible is not the same as practicing fully what the Bible said or what CHristianity was meant to be about - and that's seen in the sheer amount of times things were discussed in regards to FreeMasonry as well as making room for paganism/Enlightenment Thinking..which was humanist in nature/only acknowledged the Bible as far as it seemed to support moral values all accepted.

George Washington was a freemason and a deist. He wouldn’t take communion with his wife. ...and he was also what's known as a Unitarian ..and due to his Unitarian views, held stances that supported both Christian principles and non-Christian beliefs such as Deism and other things. For reference:

One can also go here and here. John Adams spoke harshly at times about Christianity and religion in general in his private correspondence. He was a Christian Unitarian that believed the church service was good for everyone because it promoted morals and values among the masses. Thomas Jefferson, as a Diest, went so far to deny the divinity of Christ. He even created his own compilation of Jesus’ life from the gospels, which he entitled, “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth.” He removed all evidence of the “supernatural” for a presentation of Jesus as a good moral teacher who is only to be admired, not worshipped. And there are other examples of where things they did/began were FAR from being what the Lord had in mind with Biblical laws​



In example, there are pictures showing the Founding Fathers as gods..which is not surprising seeing that most of the Founding Fathers were very much into demonic things such as Freemasonry. There was one statue I remember seeing of George Washington IN D.C that had him in the form of a Greek GOD when I was visiting the place back in 2009. Seemed like they were trying to express the regal nature the president seemed to have and take it to another level, just as others have done often..

Washington%20on%20horse%20at%20Trenton.jpg


070730_thisdayjuly31.jpg


wz1.jpg


Additionally, the dome of the Capitol features in its occulus an incredibly significant painting that reveals the philosophical, spiritual and political aims of the Founding Fathers. Right in the very centre of the cast iron dome in the U.S Capitol is a painting of George Washington, ascended to the pantheon of ancient greek deities.






Astonishingly poor theology for 'one nation under God', but evidence of the high esteem George was held in by his 19th century successors. The building was completed (from memory) in the 1820s.

And there are many others besides that.

It's not hidden. I'm surprised many more don't talk on the ways the Founding Fathers were often deified multiple times and no one said anything on it for centuries. I'd wager that many don't tend to look for it due to assumptions they've already accepted on the Founding Fathers being fully dedicated believers and soldiers for Christ as has often been said by others in the Religious Right and others who had an idea of Christianity in mind which they supported/felt the FOunders did as well ( with the use of Biblical Language/scripture in their speeches being what influences others to see the history of the nation as being Christian in origin ), thus causing confirmation bias and people seeing what they have already been trained to see/zoom in on....even when the other darker aspects of what were present in the nation's founding/consistently growing are out in the open...from the monuments of our capitol to the things presidents swear into before taking office (like Bohemian Grove, if not aware of it - very dark reality )...and a lot of other mess.

Some of those things I honestly was not aware of until I went to D.C for myself...with it being the case that read my Bible that morning on idolatry and what King Josiah did in II Kings 22-23 when loving the Lord and yet having no clue as to the many things surrounding him that were evil...and although I was aware of things like FreeMasonry and other things present, some of the other things I witnessed there really made me feel VERY uncomfortable/perplexed as to how open it was and yet no many caught it.

And when I saw that, it made so much sense as to why people tended in our nation to do the things they did - and still do.

Nothing that has happened is really new...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Many people believed in manifest destiny, meaning they were destined to claim America. Most American settlers were Protestant, and this belief was no doubt induced, at least partially, by predestination theologies and other religious intrigues.

George Washington is even divinized in certain paintings and such. People went a bit loony about America simply because it was liberation from Europe for the first time in their history.

That being said, it's no surprise that somebody would reach upon an idea that America is the New Israel. The American generations after revolutionary times would've been inclined to agree.
Economic realities/money seemed to be a big factor behind why so many began to embrace the mantra of Manifest Destiny. As said best in THE DARK SIDE OF OUR FREE MARKET MYTHS, for an excerpt on how often the "truths self-evident" were often used to defend things done that were horrible when the government was in the wrong hands:
As you can imagine, when the stock market crash hit in 1929 a majority of Americans could no longer feast off of nature's bounty, like early pioneers, because they lived in the cities. Capturing and feeding off of rats and other street vermin is not the same as hunting down and feasting on the deer and fish caught in the countryside. This new reality posed serious problems during the Great Depression. Astute politicians and policy makers understood quickly that economic depression created entirely new problems when people live on top one another in urban settings. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

The real story is what made industrial America tick.

What Made the Great Transformation Possible
During the Great Transformation of America individual achievements and spectacular events were made possible and driven by the liberties granted by the Constitution, the gift of natural resources, protective tariffs (the highest in the industrializing world), and a very aggressive foreign policy, which we called Manifest Destiny. While we like to believe that Americans achieved greatness because of hard work and the spirit of entrepreneurialism alone, the reality is the very visible hand of the state and nature's bounty were critical for setting the table for Americans to work hard and get ahead. The moral justification of capitalism draws it's lifeblood from this dynamic mix.




 
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Douggg

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No, they are not. Premillennialism, especially the Dispensationalist kind adhered to today, is nothing more than 19th century ce hogwash.



Nope. The theology is quite modern and is based on unorthodox interpretations and McCarthy-type Nationalism.



It is a conspiracy theory and it is shoddy theology to boot.


This is an eschatology entimes and prophecy forum. The basic premise is that endtimes and bible prophecy are to be discussed. Not whether endtimes and bible prophecy are valid or not.

Daniel 7, Daniel 2, Revelation 17, Revelation 13 all are bible prohecy end times. The four kingdoms, the ten toes, the feet of iron and clay, the ten horns, are all in the bible in those chapters. They are not a conspiracy theory. The bildebergers, the Rothchilds, the Masons, the knights templars, shapeshifters, - those things are conspiracy theory subject matter - which are not bible prophecy. Those are not being discussed in this forum because this is a bible prophecy study of the end times forum.

I have not said anything about McCarthy-type Nationalism. I don't know here you are getting that from. I also am not a dispensationist. Those things don't have anything to do with the end times Roman Empire.

Doug
 
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PaladinValer

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This is an eschatology entimes and prophecy forum.

Yes, and the point is?

The basic premise is that endtimes and bible prophecy are to be discussed. Not whether endtimes and bible prophecy are valid or not.

Actually, they ARE debated here, particularly when I can think off the top of my head three major eschatological theologies and many of their subsets, and having been a member of CF for as long as I have, I know for a fact that adherents of them duke it out often in this forum.

Daniel 7, Daniel 2, Revelation 17, Revelation 13 all are bible prohecy end times. The four kingdoms, the ten toes, the feet of iron and clay, the ten horns, are all in the bible in those chapters. They are not a conspiracy theory.

Straw Man. I never questioned that; I questioned your interpretation of the texts, not the texts themselves.

The bildebergers, the Rothchilds, the Masons, the knights templars, shapeshifters, - those things are conspiracy theory subject matter - which are not bible prophecy. Those are not being discussed in this forum because this is a bible prophecy study of the end times forum.

You'd be amazed on what is posted here, and I did not make such an accusation.

I have not said anything about McCarthy-type Nationalism. I don't know here you are getting that from.

Not directly, but it certainly sounds like it.

I also am not a dispensationist.

Forgive me, but while I emphasized dispensationalism, my post was referring to premillennialism in general.

Those things don't have anything to do with the end times Roman Empire.

Actually, they rather do. Premillennial theology stresses the culmination of Bible prophecy and eschatology of end times as something immediate and current.
 
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Douggg

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Actually, they ARE debated here, particularly when I can think off the top of my head three major eschatological theologies and many of their subsets, and having been a member of CF for as long as I have, I know for a fact that adherents of them duke it out often in this forum.

Mostly what goes on in this forum is a never ending conflict between futurists, historists, and amils.

I advocate a separate futurist only end-times forum. No change to this forum.

Straw Man. I never questioned that; I questioned your interpretation of the texts, not the texts themselves.

You haven't made any arguments against my view with any biblcal verses to say otherwise - you have only called my view conspiracy theory.

Doug
 
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