Challenges for pre tribulation rapture

[BABerean2]

So you can post all the scriptures you can find about salvation and connect with the church today but there is none that says they will be in the tribulation and that the gospel can only come from the church today.

Then what is this?


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

You know a person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under Grace...
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[jerry kelso]

Then what is this?


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

You know a person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under Grace...
.

baberean2,

1. I don't think you comprehend too well or you are just so into tunnel vision.

2. Revelation 12:11; Overcoming by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony were the martyrs in the tribulation and they are saved by the new testament in Christ blood. That has been the only way to be saved since the cross and resurrection. Why do you think that Christ had to die for the transgressions of the sins of the first testament people? So they could be perfected. Hebrews 11:40 How many times do I have to repeat myself?

3. Even if the jews would have accepted the KOH message, Christ would have had to die before they could have been perfected in their salvation and before they could have begun to rule in the KOH reign. What part of this can you not understand?

4. Because the jews rejected the KOH and the KOG message Jesus predicted that the temple would be destroyed and the city as well. He would not see them again till the KOH began in the future. Read Matthew 23:37-39 which I have repeated multiple times.

5. Actually Paul said in Romans that it was because of Israel's rejection that the gentile were able to be grafted in and in turn the gentile believers and the believing jews such as the apostles, Paul and others in the new testament church would make the nation of Israel jealous for God for the time they are on this earth.

6. Because Israel rejected the KOH and the KOG message, Jesus predicted in Matthew 24:1-2 the judgement which happened in 70 A.D. They did not have a second chance to thwart that before 70 A.D. because the church was predestined to be in place at this time until right before the tribulation. Jesus didn't even know when the KOH would appear so there was no purpose to preach this message except to keep it in the minds of jews that God had not forgotten them and one day they would fulfill it. Paul was a jew and he said God had not forgotten them.

7. By you thinking that Israel the physical nation of physical jews will not be at the head of the nations then there is no need for resurrecting Israel at all and yet we know they will be in the KOH. Since the scripture says that Israel will be in the KOH reign and Jerusalem will be the capitol of the world and nations will have to come up to Israel to celebrate the feasts and David will be the King over Israel which the new testament say who is going to be at the head of the nations in the millennial government. The church and Israel the nation both will have rulership positions and both will have been saved by the new covenant.

8. Christ will be the ultimate potentate on earth in the kingdom but he will not be the only ruler for Israel will be at the head of the nations and the church will be rulers throughout the kingdom in different places. Now why does that scripture and its context bother you so much? I thought you were for rightly dividing the word.

9. I have been wrong about some things and had to change because I didn't have the total picture and didn't understand context and reconciling scriptures together correctly. This is why I have gone out of my way to rightly divide the word in all points of exegesis.

10. One more thing; salvation has always been about the sacrifice and the death, burial, and resurrection. However, in Adam and Eve's day they didn't understand the big picture as we should know today because they basically only used their conscience which could be seared and was not as plain as the law of Moses later on. The Mosaic law was veiled in types and shadows and because of gradual revelation they could not completely understand the big picture. Peter was still trying to figure out in the early church about their covenants because he was still seeing signs that were to accompany their fulfilling their covenants of Abraham and David such as the Holy Spirit being poured out. But there were other signs that were supposed to happen and didn't such as nature being renovated and the restitution of all things.

11. To get back on track of salvation. In Jesus days he forgave them for he had the divine power to do that. But as I said before he didn't preach the new covenant but the Mosaic law. So while they were saved temporarily until Christ died and they were perfected in the redemptive plan of God to complete salvation which started in Genesis 3:15 by way of the cross. The law could not have ever saved them and never did in the old testament. This is why the law had to be done away with because Christ was to take the place of the Mosaic law for he alone could saved, help us achieve the commandments so we could be a consistent overcomer and so it would be who we are in him and that our object of faith would be in him and not trying to keep the Mosaic law and bow to self effort.

12. I will repeat one more time; Jesus would have had to die even if Israel would have accepted the KOH offer because they couldn't be perfected in their salvation according to the blood of Jesus Christ. The basis of salvation before and after the cross had been, was in Jesus day and after the cross and forever. However, the revelation of salvation was through partial knowledge and veiled in types and shadows and their eyes were blinded and the parables were for this purpose of the serious ones to come to Christ and the others stay blinded. Read Matthew 13. So there is but one gospel but had different and incomplete revelations till after the cross and even then it took a while for the big picture to come to fruition and why the way one was preserved in salvation in believing whatever their revelation said about the sacrifice pointing to the cross and why the cross brought the total fruition. Take this as food for thought. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

5. Actually Paul said in Romans that it was because of Israel's rejection that the gentile were able to be grafted in and in turn the gentile believers and the believing jews such as the apostles, Paul and others in the new testament church would make the nation of Israel jealous for God for the time they are on this earth.

6. Because Israel rejected the KOH and the KOG message, Jesus predicted in Matthew 24:1-2 the judgement which happened in 70 A.D. They did not have a second chance to thwart that before 70 A.D. because the church was predestined to be in place at this time until right before the tribulation. Jesus didn't even know when the KOH would appear so there was no purpose to preach this message except to keep it in the minds of jews that God had not forgotten them and one day they would fulfill it. Paul was a jew and he said God had not forgotten them.

All of Israel did not reject Christ. You are making it sound like all of the Israelite branches were broken off of the Olive Tree.

The Gentile branches of the wild Olive Tree were grafted in among the believing Israelite branches like Paul (Romans 11:1), who remained in the tree. It was only the Israelite branches that rejected Christ that were broken off of the Olive Tree. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Blood Covenant Church. In Romans chapter 11 Paul makes it clear that salvation only comes from being grafted into the Olive Tree. The branches broken off wither and die with out the nourishment of the tree. They must be grafted back into the tree for eternal life.

The "covenant" in Romans 11:27 is the New Blood Covenant of Christ, "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6. It is not waiting on a future fulfillment.

The Church of Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of God's Plan of salvation. No one will come to salvation outside of the Church before the Second Coming of Christ.
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[jerry kelso]

All of Israel did not reject Christ. You are making it sound like all of the Israelite branches were broken off of the Olive Tree.

The Gentile branches of the wild Olive Tree were grafted in among the believing Israelite branches like Paul (Romans 11:1), who remained in the tree. It was only the Israelite branches that rejected Christ that were broken off of the Olive Tree. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Blood Covenant Church. In Romans chapter 11 Paul makes it clear that salvation only comes from being grafted into the Olive Tree. The branches broken off wither and die with out the nourishment of the tree. They must be grafted back into the tree for eternal life.

The "covenant" in Romans 11:27 is the New Blood Covenant of Christ, "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6. It is not waiting on a future fulfillment.

The Church of Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of God's Plan of salvation. No one will come to salvation outside of the Church before the Second Coming of Christ.
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baberean2,


1. You are just wanting to beat a dead horse.

2. The 120 were from Jesus day and they were saved and most of the early church were jewish. No one is arguing that point and I have not denied it or implied or said it or made it sound like that. That is your first untruth and wrong deduction.

3. The gentiles were grafted in to believing jews and there is no argument there because the gentiles didn't have a covenant. I have always said that and the jewish unbelievers that were from the nation of Israel were cut off. Paul was also talking about the nation of Israel as a nation for God always had a remnant that he reserved and since the cross happened he had an election of grace.

4. The body of Christ was explained by Paul in Corinthians. Paul said the gentile could lose their salvation too and be ungrafted.

5. Salvation does not come from being grafted into the tree. Jesus said he was the vine and we were the branches. The grafting in shows that we have been saved and that the gentiles and jews have to be saved to be grafted and it was because of the new covenant.

6. Romans 11:27; For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. You are using this one scripture as a basis that Israel's callings according to the specific parts of the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are null and void for the nation because of the church of jew and gentile.

7. You have not shown the full context for the new covenant at the cross was not consummated with the nation of Israel at that time or afterwards.

8. You have diverted the attention aways from verse 26 about the nation of Israel being saved and the time factor is when the Deliverer shall come out of Mt. Sion which is the heavenly Mt. Sion and not the earthly Mt. Zion or Sion either one. The Deliverer is Christ who has to turn Israel away from ungodliness from Jacob and that didn't happen at the cross. The time of Jacob's trouble is in the future tribulation Daniel 12:1-2, Isaiah 66:7-8 and Matthew 24:21 and Revelation 11-19.

9. You are wrong again that the church of today is the only way that people will come to believe in Christ. The church will be raptured before the tribulation and I have already given the scriptures and you have never proved it wrong and cannot.

10. Now you have made it possible that your belief is being grafted into the church and your spiritual Israel theory is the only way to be saved when all along it is Jesus Christ who is the vine and not the church. The church is a vehicle just like the jews were but they will be in heaven during the tribulation and God will have gentile witnesses that miss the rapture and will know what has happened and give their hearts to God and the 144,000 witnesses. The church is nowhere mentioned in the tribulation. You have to make that up by saying the elect and believers and those that overcame by the blood etc.

11. You are wrong and obviously do not understand context so just give up because all you keep doing is going around in circles and say the same scenario which I have debunked multiple times.
You can believe your theory but it is not scriptural. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

The church is nowhere mentioned in the tribulation.

Really...

The capital "C" Church as we use the term today, is not found at all in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found in the Book of Revelation.

The word "saints" is used throughout the Book of Revelation.
The text below shows the word "saints" describes Christians.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Really...

The capital "C" Church as we use the term today, is not found at all in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found in the Book of Revelation.

The word "saints" is used throughout the Book of Revelation.
The text below shows the word "saints" describes Christians.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

baberean2,

1. Once again you have no real point.

2. The word church is not in Revelation but it is in Matthew 16:18 and pertains to the body of Christ of jews and gentiles on the same level because of the cross.

3. Revelation 2-3 is using the 7 churches of Asia Minor as examples of issues that needed to be addressed in order to be over comers. Since Revelation 1 says the book is a prophecy it also stands for the whole church age and not just those 7 churches.

4. The reason church is not used or implied as in the body of Christ in Revelation is because we are raptured together with the dead in Christ in the rapture before the tribulation of 7 years.
Saints are christians in all ages whether before the cross or after the cross. You are just shooting in the dark and have no proof for your position. I know that upsets you but if you would accept the truth it wouldn't hurt so bad.

5. You keep trying so hard to keep holding up your church doctrine that it is a hard pill for you to swallow. Swallow it for it is pride. If not then keep it to yourself for you have no evidence. If you even had a little logic and proof in your context that would even halfway make a decent argument then I would be the first to tell you no matter if I still differed with you. But you haven't and cannot do it.

6. I am beginning to believe you just want to be right and you have accused me of being into Darby which I have never completely studied him out and yet you keep wanting me to listen to your teachers that you believe are right. How is that fair or not hypocritical. I don't believe I have told you to listen to any Dispensational teacher.

7. It is up to you what you want to believe but you can't convince me that what you support is true and have not showed the evidence from yourself or your teachers. Jerry kelso

 

[ac28]

The so-called rapture (hate that unbiblical word) occurs at the last (7th) trump in Revelation 11:15. To be the last trump, there has to be more than one. Also, What other trum(pet) could it be? There is no scripture that indicates a pre-trib rapture. A pre-trib rapture is just wishful thinking. I don't know why, though, since the rapture in 1 Thessalonians, 1 Corinthians, etc., has nothing to do with anybody living now, or during the last 1900+ years.

The way it's written, it seems that Paul knew that the people would know what the "last trump" was without explaining it. Legend (probably Catholic) has it that John was banished to Patmos in 96AD. In Revelation 1:10, John says he was there IN THE SPIRIT, not necessarily there physically, on the Lord's Day (certainly not Sunday). It's the Day of the Lord, which is well described in Zephaniah 1:14-16. I think this occurred in 43 AD, 14 years after Paul discussed John (certainly not himself) in 2 Corinthians 12:2-5. In other words, most everybody had probably read Revelation and knew what the last trump was.

 

[jerry kelso]

The so-called rapture (hate that unbiblical word) occurs at the last (7th) trump in Revelation 11:15. To be the last trump, there has to be more than one. Also, What other trum(pet) could it be? There is no scripture that indicates a pre-trib rapture. A pre-trib rapture is just wishful thinking. I don't know why, though, since the rapture in 1 Thessalonians, 1 Corinthians, etc., has nothing to do with anybody living now, or during the last 1900+ years.

The way it's written, it seems that Paul knew that the people would know what the "last trump" was without explaining it. Legend (probably Catholic) has it that John was banished to Patmos in 96AD. In Revelation 1:10, John says he was there IN THE SPIRIT, not necessarily there physically, on the Lord's Day (certainly not Sunday). It's the Day of the Lord, which is well described in Zephaniah 1:14-16. I think this occurred in 43 AD, 14 years after Paul discussed John (certainly not himself) in 2 Corinthians 12:2-5. In other words, most everybody had probably read Revelation and knew what the last trump was.

ac28,

1. I am sorry but you are incorrect. 1 Thessalonians 4 is the trump of God and not the angels. It is the voice of the archangel.

2. Revelation 11:15 is under the 7th trump under the wrath of the lamb which is the trumpet judgements.
3. Revelation 6:16-17. This is said at the end of the 6th seal before the 7th seal and the trumpet judgements happen. The seals, trumpets and vials are in succession.

4. There are many trumpets blown in Jewish years concerning feasts etc.
John was banished to Patmos in the 90 A.D.'s was in the Spirit on the Lord's day and not the Day of the Lord.

5. Zephaniah 1:14-16 is about the Day of the Lord specific to Armageddon. When John first had the vision of Christ and the candlesticks and the church ages and even the tribulation was not the Day of the Lord. Armageddon is not even mentioned until the end of the tribulation at the end of the vials. You need to read your bible and get the facts. It wasn't in 43 A.D.

6. Paul's revelations in 2 Corinthians 12:2-5 was before Thessalonians when he mentioned about the rapture which was in 52 A.D. 43 A.D. or 52. A.D. wasn't the day of the Lord and neither was 70 A.D.

7. In Judaism they understood about trumpets blown and when about the feasts but the Revelation was by John and it was different than the trump of God in Thessalonians and the last trump of the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:52. Jerry kelso

 

[MWood]

Really...

The capital "C" Church as we use the term today, is not found at all in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found in the Book of Revelation.

The word "saints" is used throughout the Book of Revelation.
The text below shows the word "saints" describes Christians.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

The wife of Rev 19:7 is not the Church the Body of Christ. The wife of Rev.19:7 is shown and explained in Rev 21:9-10. Check it out.

 

[ac28]

Jerry,

I read the other day that there were 30,000 Christian denominations worldwide. I don't know if there are that many but if you allow spin-offs of spin-offs of spin-offs, there are a lot. Plus, every person has their own ideas about some things. The reason for this great variety of mindsets is differences in Bible interpretation. The Bible is the most difficult book in existence, bar none. Except for the very basic things, no one's interpretation, including yours, mine, Hagin's, or Copeland's can be considered to be more than a theory. This is a good reason to stay out of the churches (synagogues) and into the Bible. The best any of us can do is spend 1000's of hours studying the Bible and formulate a "best bet" as to what it's all about.

Of course, there are good theories, bad theories, mature theories, and infantile theories.

I see you are Pentecostal. My experience (2 years, every Sunday, wide variety of charismatic churches in Houston, which may be the charismatic capital of the world) with Pentecostal doctrine is that, although it is very Christ-centered (which is good), it fails in most other areas, especially the totally non-existent gifts that they FORCE to give the illusion of truth. These Jewish gifts were for another time, another place, and a different group of people. I've always felt that many people stay in the charismatic churches because of the intense "rush" they get, especially during the droning, repetitious, hypnotic music that is played. I must admit that the "rush" really felt good and probably kept my attendance up for awhile, although I agreed with hardly anything the preacher said. This "rush" felt identical to what I felt during my old pagan days when I was practicing Transcendental Meditation twice a day and my mantra was the name of a Hindu god, as I found out later.

Since you don't 100% "know" most anything you think you know, you might slack off about telling everybody they are incorrect. Since God is not a liar and is not the author of confusion, there can be only one true Biblical answer for each question you could possibly ask. Therefore, the odds are that you are the one who is incorrect in many cases.

I'll stick with everything I said earlier about the "rapture." My main point was that the Jewish rapture in Cor, Thess, etc., has nothing to do with anyone today, so why worry about it. Our "rapture" will be our "appearing with Jesus Christ in Glory, where Glory is defined as being above all heavens (see Psalms 8:1), as in Colossians 3:4,
"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Chronologically, our "appearing" in Glory will probably be before the Jewish "rapture" of Cor and Thess.

 

[jerry kelso]

The wife of Rev 19:7 is not the Church the Body of Christ. The wife of Rev.19:7 is shown and explained in Rev 21:9-10. Check it out.

mwood,

Let me clarify what I should have said the first time.
The old testament saints which of course was before the cross and the body of Christ, the mystery of the church of jew and gentile on the same playing ground will be in Heaven the whole 7 years of the tribulation and will have a heavenly calling. This means rulership is not necessarily limited to the earthly KOH reign.
The wife of Revelation 19:7 is both the old testament saints and the body of Christ.
However, Revelation 21:9-10 is correct that we become the inhabitants of the Holy City and yes being the lamb's wife we are the bride.
This is good to be pointed out because many think we are the bride now and just the body of Christ is the bride. It is not till the marriage supper of the lamb etc that we become the wife and we come down from heaven to as inhabitants of the Holy City. Good job. It is good to see someone to the point and to the context of scripture. God bless! Jerry kelso

The wife of Rev 19:7 is not the Church the Body of Christ. The wife of Rev.19:7 is shown and explained in Rev 21:9-10. Check it out.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

I read the other day that there were 30,000 Christian denominations worldwide. I don't know if there are that many but if you allow spin-offs of spin-offs of spin-offs, there are a lot. Plus, every person has their own ideas about some things. The reason for this great variety of mindsets is differences in Bible interpretation. The Bible is the most difficult book in existence, bar none. Except for the very basic things, no one's interpretation, including yours, mine, Hagin's, or Copeland's can be considered to be more than a theory. This is a good reason to stay out of the churches (synagogues) and into the Bible. The best any of us can do is spend 1000's of hours studying the Bible and formulate a "best bet" as to what it's all about.

Of course, there are good theories, bad theories, mature theories, and infantile theories.

I see you are Pentecostal. My experience (2 years, every Sunday, wide variety of charismatic churches in Houston) with Pentecostal doctrine is that, although it is very Christ-centered (which is good), it fails in most other areas, especially the totally non-existent gifts that they FORCE to give the illusion of truth. These Jewish gifts were for another time, another place, and a different group of people. I've always felt that many people stay in the charismatic churches because of the intense "rush" they get, especially during the droning, repetitious, hypnotic music that is played. I must admit that the "rush" really felt good and probably kept my attendance up for awhile, although I agreed with hardly anything the preacher said. This "rush" felt identical to what I felt during my old pagan days when I was practicing Transcendental Meditation twice a day and my mantra was the name of a Hindu god, as I found out later.

Since you don't 100% "know" most anything you think you know, you might slack off about telling everybody they are incorrect. Since God is not a liar and is not the author of confusion, there can be only one true Biblical answer for each question you could possibly ask. Therefore, the odds are that you are the one who is incorrect in many cases.

I'll stick with everything I said earlier about the "rapture." My main point was that the Jewish rapture in Cor, Thess, etc., has nothing to do with anyone today, so why worry about it. Our "rapture" will be our "appearing with Jesus Christ in Glory, where Glory is defined as being above all heavens (see Psalms 8:1), as in Colossians 3:4,
"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Chronologically, our "appearing" in Glory will probably be before the "rapture" of Cor and Thess.

ac28,

1. I already gave the information why there are many denominations and I agree about spin offs. Some of them are legitimate reasons.
2. I have said this before that people have a reference to different phrases and scriptures etc. from experiences and what they have been taught growing up and new information they may attain.
I have also been very vocal about hermeneutics and a basis for proper biblical hermeneutics. Because of history of the bible and different people, customs, idioms of the time etc. the bible has to be studied and exegeted to understand many truths and then some are much easier.

3. Many christians want everything simple so they don't have to study. If the bible says For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life is a plain statement and tells how much God loved us so we could live forever. There are other things about the plan of redemption that have not been spoken and could give more detail and emphasis to imprint how big his love is. Others want to go to extreme and say receiving eternal life means that we can never lose our salvation because it is eternal but don't take in consideration the woman in luke who lost her coin and found it and the lost sheep etc. which the possession can be lost time and time again even if by one individual and their change of masters because of disobedience.

4. Also, there are passages like Paul saying I die daily that is a plain statement that most people take spiritual meaning only and nothing to do with physical resurrection etc. So one must understand the immediate context to understand the immediate passage sometimes and then go to other scriptures that harmonizes with that in the overall context which could even have a slightly different meaning. I could go on but I believe you get the point. We are not perfect in knowledge and I don't expect us to agree on every jot and tittle especially where there are things said that are not very clear and one can get many understandings from because of a spiritual truth.

5. Through your experiences you may have a different angle than I or someone else and vice versa.

6. I was raised pentecostal in the AOG which was before the charismatic movement and my dad ministered to many about the gifts of the Spirit as well as to other denominations who didn't understand about the Holy Spirit's gifts. There are differences between the AOG and many charismatic churches. But at the same time there are a few things I don't agree with on the AOG side and I don't believe denominations are scriptural as a whole. So you are trying to seemingly lump me with your experience of charismatics and stereotype me without really knowing what I truly believe.

7. Every doctrine has some truth most of the time but the variables mean that extremes can be different.
Your rejection of whatever they said or did that you do not agree with for whatever reason and it's result is that there is no such thing as the gifts of the Spirit.
Part of the problem you have with it you said is because of the music that reminded you of you TM days back from the 60's and 70's that was popular during those years even though it was before then. So I assume you are about my age if not older.

8. I was in the AOG and the music was old hymns and we didn't always have the praise and worship songs in the same tone necessarily and even the music we had wasn't the main focus such as praise and worship have become for they were of the hymns. At the same time today people misunderstand much about the point of praise and worship. David had praise and worship and if you have ever heard jewish music and lyrics in many respects can be just as much and more in a TM chant than a christian praise and worship.
I am not saying that your perception and stereotype is not completely true but the accusation can then delve into motives of people and questioning their heart.

9. Believe me, up till a few years ago I had traveled all over america and other countries and have seen a little bit of everything in the church denominations and otherwise, so I am not unaware of these things.
When I played every night which was gospel music neither contemporary, or praise and worship and I played in such a manner and I remember one night one person thought I was very antimated and more of an entertainer and in the next few seconds another said it was the most anointed playing they ever heard. I am sure one was not a christian and the other was but makes no differences because christians have different preferences and points of views of why they believe what they believe. I have also been in concerts in particular churches that loved their local groups that had no talent than the ones who supposedly had talent and was just as much in tune and sometimes more in sharing the gospel and trying to make a difference in people's lives. This is why I believe it is important to believe the truth and stand up for it but take in consideration why people believe what they believe etc. Sometimes we can learn what to do and say and believe and other times need to throw it out.

10. Also, there are similarities to music secular and non secular. A christian can be touched by a secular song because he has a soul and many secular artists are in touch with their soul more than some christians. This doesn't mean there is not a difference in the way a gospel song can touch your heart so don't misconstrue what I say. Jesus made a comparison of secular people being better with their money than christians even though their contexts can be different.

11. There are many examples of people who have been saved through many things that they had a chronic problem and they are more hard lined against those things than another who didn't have that problem. We always need to be hard lined against sin, but experiences and perceptions can be another thing of it's own and sometimes legalistic and dangerous and sometimes not.

12. Concerning the rapture there is no rapture that happened in that day and there is no rapture of the jewish nation as a whole in scripture. The closest would be Revelation 15:1-2 for the implication of they sing the song of Moses and the lamb and didn't take the mark of the beast. It still wouldn't be the whole nation for the bulk of the nation is preserved in the wilderness of Revelation 12 and the remnant will be preserved through the tribulation and alive when Christ comes back at Armageddon and they will say they will look on him whom they pierced Revelation 1:7.

13. The rapture of Corinthians which is at the same time the resurrection of believers is the same as 1 Thessalonians 4 because we will be changed then. This is different than the resurrection of Revelation 20 which is only those who didn't take the mark and was a martyr because of it and they are also the ones that the souls under the altar had to wait for Revelation 5 and Revelation 14 of the blessed dead and 15 who sing the song of Moses and the lamb.

14. I can understand why you think I may be condescending or think that I know everything but it really not the case in the overall sense of thinking I cannot be wrong etc. I am sure many thought of Paul the same way with his great revelations never heard before by the mainstream.

15. The more I learn the more I realize I don't know and how great God is and how small I am. I do believe I can learn by being humble and studying and consulting the Spirit etc. At the same time I believe in rightly dividing the word and I believe there are hermeneutical principles that need to be understood to properly divide the word of truth. I have been wrong before and I have admitted when I was wrong and went to the truth. There are some teachers than one will trust more and may be able to show things in a better light that will help me to understand etc. I believe in proper exegesis and trying to understand as many different interpretations of the passage that their might be and why people believe what they believe. So I am sorry if you have not so good of perception about me but understanding the word in its proper perspective is of utmost importance. I am not out to demean people but I do believe in holding them to the fire about what they believe about the scriptures and why and I don't expect anything less from anyone else to me.

16. Hermeneutics is about the biggest thing in how and why people believe what they do. Everyone has them even if they don't know they do or do not even know what hermeneutics mean. It just means basically, the art of interpretation.

17. Last, if you want to converse and debate and rebut properly about the issues that you are concerned with then go ahead and I would be glad to converse with you. I want people to be fair in exegesis and not because they have to be right. I try to do the same thing. God bless. Jerry Kelso