Challenges for pre tribulation rapture

jerry kelso

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another hint revelation 6:9-11, revelation 15:8, hebrews 9:8, 1 thessalonians 4:16-17, & revelation 20:4-6 are all linked together!

random person,
I have to go to work and I will be back in the morning but from the scriptures you have given you have given no details of what the theocracy on earth is going to be like when Christ comes back and who is going to reign with him and in what specific roles. Try again and stay focused and show that you have some knowledge of what the scriptures say about the details about the kingdom theocracy on earth. Jerry Kelso
 
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random person,
I have to go to work and I will be back in the morning but from the scriptures you have given you have given no details of what the theocracy on earth is going to be like when Christ comes back and who is going to reign with him and in what specific roles. Try again and stay focused and show that you have some knowledge of what the scriptures say about the details about the kingdom theocracy on earth. Jerry Kelso

there isnt ever going to be a theocracy on earth. remember the israelites sought a man to reign over them and it displeased god because they already had a king - god reigning from heaven.

christ already reigns on the throne of david right now. and forever more. luke 1:32-33 & revelation 22:3.
 
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Biblewriter

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there isnt ever going to be a theocracy on earth. remember the israelites sought a man to reign over them and it displeased god because they already had a king - god reigning from heaven.

christ already reigns on the throne of david right now. and forever more. luke 1:32-33 & revelation 22:3.

This is a blatant denial of too many scriptures to count.
 
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random person

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This is a blatant denial of too many scriptures to count.

bw's "christ" is a king without throne, a king without a kingdom

denying the events isaiah 9:6-7; daniel 2:44, daniel 7:13-14, daniel 7:18-25, matthew 24:35, luke 1:32-33, ephesians 3:20-21.
 
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jerry kelso

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bw's "christ" is a king without throne, a king without a kingdom

denying the events isaiah 9:6-7; daniel 2:44, daniel 7:13-14, daniel 7:18-25, matthew 24:35, luke 1:32-33, ephesians 3:20-21.

random person,

1. Christ said he had a kingdom not of this world to Pilate and said his servants would defend him if he deemed so, so he would not be delivered to the jews and their hatred and from being crucified. A king has a kingdom John 18:36.

2. Revelations 19:16; And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. This is future for he comes out of heaven with the saints and the angels of the armies of heaven to the battle of Armageddon in verse 14.
Christ is a king now with a kingdom and he will be King over the earth in the future tribulation when he conquers the kingdoms of this world. Revelation 11:15.
You need to read your bible correctly and understand it in the proper perspective and context. Jerry Kelso
 
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Biblewriter

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bw's "christ" is a king without throne, a king without a kingdom

denying the events isaiah 9:6-7; daniel 2:44, daniel 7:13-14, daniel 7:18-25, matthew 24:35, luke 1:32-33, ephesians 3:20-21.

36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." 37 Pilate therefore said to Him, "Are You a king then?" Jesus answered, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." John 18:36-37

The word now, which I highlighted in red in the scripture above, is a literal translation of the Greek word nun, which is a primary particle of present time. It is repeatedly used in scripture to distinguish the present from both the past and the future. It is the same Greek word used in the same way in the following verse:

"You have put all things in subjection under his feet." For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. Hebrews 2:8

The contrast of the present with the future of the Greek word nun is highlighted in this last verse by the Greek word oupo, which literally translates as not yet, which I have also highlighted above.

So the scriptures do indeed teach that while our Lord Jesus has an earthly kingdom, the time for that has not yet come.
 
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random person

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36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." 37 Pilate therefore said to Him, "Are You a king then?" Jesus answered, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." John 18:36-37

The word now, which I highlighted in red in the scripture above, is a literal translation of the Greek word nun, which is a primary particle of present time. It is repeatedly used in scripture to distinguish the present from both the past and the future. It is the same Greek word used in the same way in the following verse:

"You have put all things in subjection under his feet." For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. Hebrews 2:8

The contrast of the present with the future of the Greek word nun is highlighted in this last verse by the Greek word oupo, which literally translates as not yet, which I have also highlighted above.

So the scriptures do indeed teach that while our Lord Jesus has an earthly kingdom, the time for that has not yet come.


because he had not ascended yet and glorified according daniel 7:13-14. the son of man approaches the ancient of days, where? on earth or in heaven? the kingdom was delivered up to the father in 70 a.d. when the souls were redeemed from sheol.

souls in sheol revelation 6:9-11

heaven inaccessible while the law remained unfulfilled including god's wrath and covenantal curse hebrews 9:8, hebrews 8:13, hebrews 9:28, revelation 15:8 christ did not come to destroy any part of the law nor contradict it.

the kingdom delivered up to the father 1 corinthians 15:54-56, 1 thessalonians 4:16-17, revelation 20:4
 
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ac28

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The so-called rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4 applies to no one living today. It does apply to those believing Jews and Gentiles (grafted into Israel, the good olive tree) during the Acts period. Believers today, whether Jews or Gentiles (the same in God's eyes today) look to Christ's Appearing, when we shall appear with him in Glory - Colossians 3:4 . In Psalms 8:1 and Psalms 148:13 we find that Glory is a place and it's located above all heavens. The abode of those taken in Thessalonians 4 is the New Jerusalem, which is IN the heavens, not above them.

Face it. Israel as God's people is out of the question today and has been for ~2000 years.
 
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jerry kelso

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The so-called rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4 applies to no one living today. It does apply to those believing Jews and Gentiles (grafted into Israel, the good olive tree) during the Acts period. Believers today, whether Jews or Gentiles (the same in God's eyes today) look to Christ's Appearing, when we shall appear with him in Glory - Colossians 3:4 . In Psalms 8:1 and Psalms 148:13 we find that Glory is a place and it's located above all heavens. The abode of those taken in Thessalonians 4 is the New Jerusalem, which is IN the heavens, not above them.

Face it. Israel as God's people is out of the question today and has been for ~2000 years.

ac28,

Do you have a scripture to back up that those in the period of the early church were raptured into the clouds and that the dead that Christ brought with him from heaven? No you don't. That is your opinion. There is no plain statement or implication that you point to to prove your point.

The jews and gentiles of the church today look to Christ appearing the blessed hope of Titus 2:13 which is the rapture of those jews and gentile in the past and us as well because he is coming for those who are alive. That is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
The believers in the period of the early church of Acts are dead. They will be a part of 1 Thessalonians 4:15 but they cannot be the part of the living in verse 17.

Psalms 8:1 and Psalm 148:13 talks about his glory of his deity is higher than the heavens and the earth. On the other hand we know that Heaven where God dwells is located in the farthest part of the north of the universe. The heavens and the earth are talking about the atmospheric heavens because there are at least 7 heavens. This is what was restored in Genesis 1:6-8 and the earth was restored Genesis 1:9-10-13.

1 Thessalonians 4 says nothing about the New Jerusalem being in the heavens as the atmospheric because it is in the clouds. That is where we are united but the New Jerusalem is in heaven which is the planet heaven where there is a city called New Jerusalem.

Israel is God's chosen people and their covenants are eternal and is connected with the restitution of all things. Isaiah 2:2-4 and 9:6-7 and this is why Jesus said Repent for the KOH is at hand. The jews had disobeyed before but were not cast out and it will happen when the generation of the jews in the tribulation
come back to God. Israel and Judah in Ezekiel 37 has to be restored with Judah to become as one in the earthly kingdom. You would have to spiritualize this to make it up of the church today and many do using the spiritual Israel includes the jews and gentiles. Spiritually it does and both will reign in the KOH but the church will not be at the head of the nations. Jerusalem will be the capitol of the world and the 12 apostles will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel and nations will have to come celebrate the feasts in Jerusalem. Zechariah 14.

You show me the scripture that says the church will rule as the head of the nations on earth. Jerry kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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because he had not ascended yet and glorified according daniel 7:13-14. the son of man approaches the ancient of days, where? on earth or in heaven? the kingdom was delivered up to the father in 70 a.d. when the souls were redeemed from sheol.

souls in sheol revelation 6:9-11

heaven inaccessible while the law remained unfulfilled including god's wrath and covenantal curse hebrews 9:8, hebrews 8:13, hebrews 9:28, revelation 15:8 christ did not come to destroy any part of the law nor contradict it.

the kingdom delivered up to the father 1 corinthians 15:54-56, 1 thessalonians 4:16-17, revelation 20:4

random person,

Daniel 7:13:14; was prophetic of the end times and so Christ was resurrected before the end times because they are still not here.
Jesus didn't say he delivered the kingdom to the father in 70 A.D. Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world.

Souls in sheol is not true for those in Revelation 6:9-11 for this is prophetic after the church age. The souls under the altar in heaven, not sheol.

Souls were not redeemed from sheol in 70 A.D. There is no scripture that says this. Ephesians 4:8-10 shows that Jesus led captivity captive to heaven which would be from sheol and this happened at Calvary which was way after 70 A.D.

Heaven inaccessible? While the law remained unfulfilled? People who died from Adam into the end of the law period were in sheol and because Christ wasn't resurrected yet to be able to free the captives.

Revelation 15 is the last part for a rapture in Revelation to heaven verses 2-3. This is right before the Wrath of God is poured out on the beast kingdom and those raptured are the tribulation saints from the blessed dead Revelation 14:13 and the second half of the tribulation for the souls of the altar is in the 1st half of the tribulation and are told to wait for their fellow brethren are martyred for Christ to avenge them. Revelation 6:11.

KOH being delivered up to the father will be after death is done away with and that won't happen until right before the GWTJ in Revelation 20. A.D. 70 the kingdom was not delivered up to God from the Son but it will be in the future after the KOH millennial reign has been in progress and the revolt from the earth will be squashed by fire out of heaven and the GWTJ. When the New Heaven and New Earth is come to fruition and then the Son will be delivered up to the Father so God will be all in all. This is when the KOH the physical earth and its reign will be one with the KOG which is the whole universe and God will be all in all. Jerry kelso
 
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random person,

Daniel 7:13:14; was prophetic of the end times and so Christ was resurrected before the end times because they are still not here.
Jesus didn't say he delivered the kingdom to the father in 70 A.D. Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world.

Souls in sheol is not true for those in Revelation 6:9-11 for this is prophetic after the church age. The souls under the altar in heaven, not sheol.

Souls were not redeemed from sheol in 70 A.D. There is no scripture that says this. Ephesians 4:8-10 shows that Jesus led captivity captive to heaven which would be from sheol and this happened at Calvary which was way after 70 A.D.

Heaven inaccessible? While the law remained unfulfilled? People who died from Adam into the end of the law period were in sheol and because Christ wasn't resurrected yet to be able to free the captives.

Revelation 15 is the last part for a rapture in Revelation to heaven verses 2-3. This is right before the Wrath of God is poured out on the beast kingdom and those raptured are the tribulation saints from the blessed dead Revelation 14:13 and the second half of the tribulation for the souls of the altar is in the 1st half of the tribulation and are told to wait for their fellow brethren are martyred for Christ to avenge them. Revelation 6:11.

KOH being delivered up to the father will be after death is done away with and that won't happen until right before the GWTJ in Revelation 20. A.D. 70 the kingdom was not delivered up to God from the Son but it will be in the future after the KOH millennial reign has been in progress and the revolt from the earth will be squashed by fire out of heaven and the GWTJ. When the New Heaven and New Earth is come to fruition and then the Son will be delivered up to the Father so God will be all in all. This is when the KOH the physical earth and its reign will be one with the KOG which is the whole universe and God will be all in all. Jerry kelso

ephesians 4:8 is speaking about christ's ascension took captive the captivity. what is the captivity? sin, the devil, and death. see colossians 2:15.

however to say christ fulfilled the law at calvary is to prematurely destroy the law and the prophets which christ said he wouldnt do in matthew 5:17-18.

in jesus' day, the law was an abbreviation of the whole old testament including proverbs, psalms, and the prophets. matthew 11:13

christ wasnt resurrected on the cross.
christ wasnt glorified on the cross luke 24:26-27
the gospel wasnt preached to all nations on the cross luke 24:44-47
the holy spirit wasnt poured out on the cross acts 2
the second coming didnt happen on the cross.
the covenantal curse and the wrath of god found in the law wasnt abrogated by the cross acts 13 (paul quotes habakkuk 1:5 in reference to the law's covenantal curse on israel)

in fact, when paul speaks on the law in 1 corinthians 14:21-22 he quotes from isaiah

and again, when paul speaks on the law in romans 3:10-19 he quotes from psalms, proverbs, isaiah, & jeremiah

christ came to fulfill the law not destroy it -- luke 21:22; luke 21:32

in effect by taking the stance of dispensationalism, futurism, partialism preterism, etc. you are stating christ didnt fulfill everything written written in the law which means one or two things christ destroyed the law without fulfilling everything written in it or that the law has yet to be abrogated and we all should consider converting into jews.

however after calvary but during the time of the apostles the law was still presently in a process of passing away hebrews 8:13 & hebrews 10:9
 
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BABerean2

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ephesians 4:8 is speaking about christ's ascension took captive the captivity. what is the captivity? sin, the devil, and death. see colossians 2:15.

however to say christ fulfilled the law at calvary is to prematurely destroy the law and the prophets which christ said he wouldnt do in matthew 5:17-18.

in jesus' day, the law was an abbreviation of the whole old testament including proverbs, psalms, and the prophets. matthew 11:13

christ wasnt resurrected on the cross.
christ wasnt glorified on the cross luke 24:26-27
the gospel wasnt preached to all nations on the cross luke 24:44-47
the holy spirit wasnt poured out on the cross acts 2
the second coming didnt happen on the cross.
the covenantal curse and the wrath of god found in the law wasnt abrogated by the cross acts 13 (paul quotes habakkuk 1:5 in reference to the law's covenantal curse on israel)

in fact, when paul speaks on the law in 1 corinthians 14:21-22 he quotes from isaiah

and again, when paul speaks on the law in romans 3:10-19 he quotes from psalms, proverbs, isaiah, & jeremiah

christ came to fulfill the law not destroy it -- luke 21:22; luke 21:32

in effect by taking the stance of dispensationalism, futurism, partialism preterism, etc. you are stating christ didnt fulfill everything written written in the law which means one or two things christ destroyed the law without fulfilling everything written in it or that the law has yet to be abrogated and we all should consider converting into jews.

however after calvary but during the time of the apostles the law was still presently in a process of passing away hebrews 8:13 & hebrews 10:9

Did the New Covenant writers indicate there would be a 40 year transition time when both the Old and the New Covenant would be in effect?


Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (He did not say it is almost finished or it will be finished except for...)



Mar_15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
(The veil was not torn almost in half.)

Heb_7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
(This verse is in the present tense.)

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
(Paul did not indicate both systems were in effect.)

Gal_3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(The law was added because of sin "until" the Seed (Christ) could come.)

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

There is no 40 year transitional time in the text.

Christ remained at the right hand of the Father during the time the Romans destroyed the temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Christ did not return to earth in 70 AD.

Your doctrine of Full-Preterism does not work.

.
 
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jerry kelso

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ephesians 4:8 is speaking about christ's ascension took captive the captivity. what is the captivity? sin, the devil, and death. see colossians 2:15.

however to say christ fulfilled the law at calvary is to prematurely destroy the law and the prophets which christ said he wouldnt do in matthew 5:17-18.

in jesus' day, the law was an abbreviation of the whole old testament including proverbs, psalms, and the prophets. matthew 11:13

christ wasnt resurrected on the cross.
christ wasnt glorified on the cross luke 24:26-27
the gospel wasnt preached to all nations on the cross luke 24:44-47
the holy spirit wasnt poured out on the cross acts 2
the second coming didnt happen on the cross.
the covenantal curse and the wrath of god found in the law wasnt abrogated by the cross acts 13 (paul quotes habakkuk 1:5 in reference to the law's covenantal curse on israel)

in fact, when paul speaks on the law in 1 corinthians 14:21-22 he quotes from isaiah

and again, when paul speaks on the law in romans 3:10-19 he quotes from psalms, proverbs, isaiah, & jeremiah

christ came to fulfill the law not destroy it -- luke 21:22; luke 21:32

in effect by taking the stance of dispensationalism, futurism, partialism preterism, etc. you are stating christ didnt fulfill everything written written in the law which means one or two things christ destroyed the law without fulfilling everything written in it or that the law has yet to be abrogated and we all should consider converting into jews.

however after calvary but during the time of the apostles the law was still presently in a process of passing away hebrews 8:13 & hebrews 10:9

randomperson,

1 You are randomly speaking and not contextually speaking.

2. Ephesians 4:8 was when Christ physically ascended and took with him the physical souls of those from Abraham's bosom which was paradise at the time. This was a great gulf apart from actual hell of sinners. Luke 16 gives the account of the rich man and Lazarus and Abraham which was true and not a parable as a fictional story to prove a point. It also shows that there is no such thing as soul sleep.

3. Colossians 2:15: And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. This says nothing about taking over having to take sin and death and the devil to heaven. The devil is still roaming as the power of the air according to Ephesians 6. Quit misrepresenting the scriptures by misquoting them and using one sided theology. Christ destroyed the devil by taking the keys to death and hell not by leading them around as captives.
The gifts were able to be given because he did defeat sin and death is the second part of Ephesians 4:8. Christ had no reason to lead sin and death as captives for they were not in captivity in the first place in hell. Satan, death, and hell were in control of the souls and had them in captivity.
Satan's power and death, and hell were destroyed so Christ could finish the plan of redemption to save all men and everyone could be perfected that was saved before and after the cross. Hebrews 11:40.

4. Romans 10:4; For Christ is the "END OF THE LAW" for righteousness to every one that believeth. The law was about doing to become and the cross was about being to do.
Galatians 3:19; Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions till the seed should come to whom the promise was made and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. The promise was to Abraham and the law didn't come until Moses but the promise of salvation under the new covenant which is different than the new covenant could not be prevented by the Mosaic law.
The law of Moses was added because of sin. If you took the scripture completely literal when it says "TILL THE SEED SHOULD COME" then it would have been canceled as a law for the jews when he was born. This could not be true because they all lived the law and taught the law and Jesus was no exception and he came to fulfill the law by what the prophecies said about his Messianic Ministry and Savior of the world. This doesn't mean that the jews understood everything about the Savior of the world about Jews and gentiles for they didn't.
Matthew 5:17-18 Christ came to fulfill the law and he did under the old testament age. Calvary started the new covenant age and that is when the law had fulfilled its purpose and reached its goal and had to be abolished as the school master to bring people to Christ.Galatians 3:25-29 and even in Galatians 4.
Hebrews 8:6-7 shows the new covenant taking the place of the old. Romans 10:4 proves the law had reached its goal and served its purpose and had reached its end in fulfillment. 2 Corinthians 3:13 was about the veil over Moses face who was the lawgiver of the Mosaic law because Israel could not stand the fact or face it that the law of the old covenant specific rules and regulations for that period would be abolished.
Today they still practice the law as old covenant in the reading of the old testament and this vail is only taken away in Christ. So until they believe the cross and resurrection message they will believe Moses law is still valid and has not changed.

5. Matthew 11:13 was about the KOH being preached concerning the Jews covenant about the physical KOH and its reign Isaiah 2:2-4 and Isaiah 9:6-7 and the spiritual aspect of the KOG Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20. Verse 13: For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John was because the reality which was prophesied to come and be the Savior was Jesus Christ and the law was fulfilled in that respect.
It was not abbreviation because Jesus didn't teach his death and resurrection in the KOH and the KOG message. All the things you mentioned were before the cross concerning resurrection, glorification, the gospel not being preached to the whole world at that time, the Holy Spirit being poured out for that didn't happen until Acts 2 after the cross either. The second coming is still future and has not happened for we are in the church age and not in the restoration of all things.

6. Habakkuk 1:5; Behold ye among the heathen and regard and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
Acts 13:41; Behold, ye despisers and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
These are two different contexts. Habakkuk is complaining to the Lord and the work God would perform was about the chaldeans being raised up and bringing Israel into captivity. Habakkuk knew about the promise of the kingdom message in verse 12.
In Acts 13 Paul was in the synagogue at Antioch and began a history lesson of the jews starting with Egypt to John the Baptist and then Christ before he died and after he arose. He shows how David died but Christ arose forever after he died because Jesus didn't see corruption but David did.
This message of the death, and resurrection of Christ is what was to be preached and not the Mosaic law. In verse 40 Paul gives the warning; Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets which happens to be Habakkuk. Verse 41; Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and persih: for I work a work in your days a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. And when the jews were gone out of the synagogue, the gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
So the fact is that the covenantal curse for Israel is still upon them because they are backslidden and there is no argument there. But this curse and the wrath of the law of Moses concerning the specific judgements of the law for disobedience were done away with at Calvary and are not for the church age and they were abolished at Calvary. These are two separate issues and Paul says the curse was lifted in Galatians 3:13: Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ: that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith etc.

7. Wow! Paul spoke from the old testament and that is supposed to mean that the law of Moses is still in effect. What a revelation!. That is quite ridiculous to say the least because the whole bible is for us and there are eternal truths throughout the bible and Paul was not sanctioning the whole law of Moses being in effect.
Romans 3:10-19; It is written There is none righteous, no not one. This is true today until one gets saved. Paul is mentioning the law to contrast what God did at Calvary and not to sanction the law of Moses as a rule of life and salvation today.
I Corinthians 14 was prophetic in the old testament and Paul was showing why some would not hear and believe. This is not sanctioning the law of Moses as being in effect.

8. Luke 21:22, 21:32; both are prophecies out of the old testament that has not been fulfilled yet. In verse 24 it says Jerusalem will be trodden down of the gentiles until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled and that has not happened yet.
We know that the jews were trodden down of the Romans in A.D. 70 and the time of the gentiles would have had to be the end of nations oppressing Israel for Rome was the last of the empires to oppress Israel.
If this was the interpretation it would still not fulfill the big picture of what Paul was relating to and he would have no reason to point to the time of the gentiles being come in future from his day because it would have already have happened in A.D. 70 and he would have known this because he was a jew and had understanding.
The only way it could be true in your context is a partial fulfillment in the context of a double reference. Solomon said that history repeats itself. So while it could have been fulfilled with some of the same imagery it doesn't go all the way into fulfilling the second coming of Christ because he didn't come in 70 A.D. and the first time was in his Messianic ministry. The second coming has not happened and will not until the time of the gentiles be come in and Christ takes over the kingdoms of this world and fulfills the covenants of Israel concerning the land and the kingdom reign. It is all tied up to the restoration of all things of nature and the kingdom reign. This did not happen in 70 A.D and did not happen in the early church and has still not happened.

9. The abolishment of the law of Moses has nothing to do with the future prophecies having had to be fulfilled at the time of the cross.
The abolishment of the law had to do with the rule of life concerning salvation and everyday life without the focus on doing the commandments in order to obey God. We obey God as a rule because of an endless life. If you are using the law mentality of keeping commandments etc. your faith is in keeping those commandments to the law and self effort and not Christ the endless life.
I have already explained this multiple and multiple times in the context of Romans 7 of why they had trouble performing commandments to begin with and ended up in sin.
So you have the wrong idea and it is your extrapolation that the law couldn't have been abolished because it would destroy the future prophecies in the old testament. That is like some say if the Mosaic law was abolished then we have no commandments to obey and no law to uphold.

10. Hebrews 8:13: In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old, Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Colossians 2:14-15 show that the law was nailed to the cross and 2 Corinthians 3:13 says it was abolished.
Decaying and waxing old and ready to vanish away in context started with Jeremiah who prophesied the change of covenants making the first testament old by using the word new. The greek word for old is not archaios not point in time but, palaios point of use, worn-out, antiquated, useless, outmoded. The words "made old" are the translation of palaioo which verb has the same root as the noun palaios mentioned above. It is in the perfect tense, which tense speaks of an action completed in past time having present results. Thus we could translate, IN saying new, he has permanently antiquated the first covenant The word decayeth is the translation of the same verb and we have that which is being antiquated. The word waxeth old are the translation of gerasko which means to grow old and carries with it the suggestion of the waning strength and the decay which are incident to old age. It has the meanings also of being obsolescent, failing from from age. This is found in Wuest word studies from the greek new testament for the english reader volume 2 in the book of Hebrews page 149.
So the time of the abolishment of the law was Calvary and Hebrews 8:13 was antiquated and passed at the cross.
Hebrews 10:9; He took away the first to establish the second.
Once again you are not understanding the proper context and cannot prove scripturally that the law was not abolished at Calvary.
You are so focused on labels of thinking that you are missing what the scriptures are really saying in full context across the board. Jerry kelso
 
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ac28

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ac28,

Do you have a scripture to back up that those in the period of the early church were raptured into the clouds and that the dead that Christ brought with him from heaven? No you don't. That is your opinion. There is no plain statement or implication that you point to to prove your point.
Jerry,

I never said that anyone had ever been "raptured" (hate that word) or resurrected (except Christ). Except for Christ, Elijah, and Enoch, everyone is still in the grave waiting for the resurrection(s) - see note below. The rapture in Thess didn't happen because Israel didn't accept Christ as the Messiah during the Acts period. This resulted in Israel becoming Lo-ammi (not my people) for the past 2000 years (parentheses). Once the present age is over, everything concerning Israel (and those Gentiles grafted in to Israel during Acts) will resume on the earth and the New Jerusalem as prophesied. At that time, everyone saved during the present 2000 years will be far above all heavens where Christ now sitteth at the right hand of God.

Note: In Luke 23:43 the KJV translators erred and put the comma in the wrong place. Instead of BEFORE the word "Today", it should be AFTER the word "Today"). The only Bible I know of that got it right is Rotherham's Emphasized Bible, which is considered by many to the the most accurate English translation available. When written wrongly as in the KJV, it's the only verse I know of that says that we will immediately go to heaven after death. Beware of one-verse proofs.
 
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BABerean2

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BAB2,

I never thought I would say this. I agree with you about something. Pretorism is full-blown heresy. One of the stupidest, totally un-Biblical concepts out there.

Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while.

However, we might disagree over which one of us is the blind squirrel...

.
 
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jerry kelso

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Jerry,

I never said that anyone had ever been "raptured" (hate that word) or resurrected (except Christ). Except for Christ, Elijah, and Enoch, everyone is still in the grave waiting for the resurrection(s) - see note below. The rapture in Thess didn't happen because Israel didn't accept Christ as the Messiah during the Acts period. This resulted in Israel becoming Lo-ammi (not my people) for the past 2000 years (parentheses). Once the present age is over, everything concerning Israel (and those Gentiles grafted in to Israel during Acts) will resume on the earth and the New Jerusalem as prophesied. At that time, everyone saved during the present 2000 years will be far above all heavens where Christ now sitteth at the right hand of God.

Note: In Luke 23:43 the KJV translators erred and put the comma in the wrong place. Instead of BEFORE the word "Today", it should be AFTER the word "Today"). The only Bible I know of that got it right is Rotherham's Emphasized Bible, which is considered by many to the the most accurate English translation available. When written wrongly as in the KJV, it's the only verse I know of that says that we will immediately go to heaven after death. Beware of one-verse proofs.

ac28,

1. 1 Thessalonians 4 is a rapture which is the catching away. It is the same as the blessed hope and glorious appearing in Titus 2.
You said that 1 Thessalonians 4 was not for anyone living today which is not scriptural and not true. Paul is addressing the church and the church age will not be over until right before when the tribulation starts.
Enoch was translated which was a rapture and Elijah was raptured by way of a chariot of fire. Jesus was resurrected and many who came up out of the graves Matthew 27:53.

2. The rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4 is for the church and was not for the nation of Israel to fulfill their covenants. The KOH and the KOG message the jews rejected Jesus in his earthly ministry. Jesus in Matthew 24 prophesied the judgement of 70 A.D. This is where people go wrong that think that the KOH message and offer was back in effect and Israel was given a second chance. You do not understand gradual revelation.

3. The church was being grafted in as far as gentile in the church and more so when Peter was given the vision of the clean and the unclean and Paul given the dispensation of the Grace of God and the ministry to the gentiles. Jews were being grafted in in that day and all those from that period throughout the church age will be raptured according to 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

4. In the tribulation there will be jews and gentiles saved but the jews are the focus and has to be purged by intense tribulation where Zechariah says 2/3 rebels will be cut off and 1/3 will be left. The tribulation is basically for the covenants of Israel to be restored as well as the nation of Israel for them to take their place at the head of the nations in the millennial kingdom Isaiah 2:2-4, 9:6-7.

5. In the book of Revelation the church of jews and gentiles of the church age are seen in Revelation 4 and 5 in heaven and will be those who will rule and reign because they were over comers that will rule with a rod of Iron with Christ Revelation 2:27.
Revelation 6 shows the souls under the altar in heaven and they are the first martyrs of the tribulation.
Revelation 7 has the 144,000 jews from every tribe and they are marked for protection through the trumpet judgements and rapture in the middle of the tribulation in Revelation 14:1-5 into heaven. Revelation 7 also shows the great multitude that come through the tribulation which is from all races and tribes etc. This will be both jews and gentiles that go through the tribulation.
Revelation 11:3-12 shows the 2 witnesses who are most likely Elijah and Enoch are raptured in the middle of the tribulation during the 7th trumpet days. Revelation 11:18 show the church in heaven being judged for their works.
Revelation 15:1-3 is the last rapture from earth to heaven and they sing the song of Moses and the lamb which implies they were jewish and gentiles both. These are the ones that got the victory over the beast for not taking the mark etc. and were martyrs and they are the same ones mentioned in Revelation 20:1-6. These are noted as being in the first resurrection and they were dead and there is no mention of a living being raptured at this time and this is why this no post rapture.
So the rapture didn't happen in the early church or post Paul and the grafting in. The jews rejection was in Jesus day and so was the judgement after the resurrection by Christ. Judgement came to the nation of Israel because of disobedience in Jesus earthly ministry not because they rejected the KOH message again because it wasn't in effect during that period of time of the grafting in or the early church.
Jesus told his disciples that it was not for them to know the times and seasons about the KOH because only the father knew. Acts 1:6-7.
The grafting in was officially from the time of Peter's vision of the clean and unclean and Paul being given the Dispensation of the Grace of God. This was because the mystery of the church which Calvary made possible came to fruition.
If the church is raptured before the tribulation which appears we agree on, the people saved will be trying to be saved and not necessarily trying make the jews jealous for that was the purpose back in Paul's day and even today for Israel is still backslidden today. Romans 11:11; I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Luke 23:43; There is nothing wrong with the comma in this verse. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. It was in reference to the previous verse; And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Today meant he would be the day he went into his heavenly kingdom not the KOH earthly reign. Jerry Kelso
 
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random person

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Did the New Covenant writers indicate there would be a 40 year transition time when both the Old and the New Covenant would be in effect?


Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (He did not say it is almost finished or it will be finished except for...)



Mar_15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
(The veil was not torn almost in half.)

Heb_7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
(This verse is in the present tense.)

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
(Paul did not indicate both systems were in effect.)

Gal_3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(The law was added because of sin "until" the Seed (Christ) could come.)

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

There is no 40 year transitional time in the text.

Christ remained at the right hand of the Father during the time the Romans destroyed the temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Christ did not return to earth in 70 AD.

Your doctrine of Full-Preterism does not work.

.


what was finished on the cross? the death of christ and blood of the lamb but what else?

if the law was abrogated on the cross then christ destroyed the law and the prophets and failed to fulfill them all. because you see the law includes the prophets they arent mutually exclusive from one another in fact the song of moses in deuteronomy 32 includes the prophesies of the final days of israel. the law is the whole old testament not just exodus through to deuteronomy.

when paul teaches on the law in 1 corinthians 14:21-22, he takes a quote from isaiah thus stating isaiah is inclusive to the law!

when paul teaches on the law in romans 3:10-19, he takes quotes from psalms, proverbs, isaiah, & jeremiah thus stating these books are inclusive to the law!

the law is the whole old testament!

the law is not simply exodus through deuteronomy!

compare deuteronomy 32:36 with daniel 12:7
compare deuteronomy 32:35 with isaiah 61:1-2 & luke 21:22
compare deuteronomy 32:35-36 with hebrews 10:30
compare deuteronomy 32:43 with matthew 23:32-36, luke 11:49-51, revelation 17:6, revelation 18:20, revelation 18:24

what about about deuteronomy 32:20? or deuteronomy 32:28-29? especially in light jesus' numerous encounters with jewish authorities and jewish leaders?

what about revelation 15:3 "song of moses"?

here read these two articles very carefully:

which covenant did christ teach?

how did heaven and earth pass away
 
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random person

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Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while.

However, we might disagree over which one of us is the blind squirrel...

.

if everything ended at the cross then why was christ raised from the dead?

5 easy steps

1. luke 21:22 "all things which are written may be fulfilled"
2. luke 24:25-27
3. luke 24:44-47 "that all things must be fulfilled"
4. matthew 5:17-18 "till all be fulfilled"
5. luke 21:32 "till all be fulfilled"

do you truly believe the law and the prophets (matthew 11:13) were abrogated at the cross?
 
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jerry kelso

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prophetically speaking the cross fulfilled the suffering and death of christ.

i am not come to destroy but to fulfill

till heaven and earth pass (does this say cross?). big double thumbs up for full preterism right here!

not one jot or tittle shall in no way pass from the law

till all be fulfilled (does this say cross?). big double thumbs up for full preterism again!

matthew 5:17-18

"destroy" = katalou (strongs 2647) abrogate
"pass" = parerchomai (strongs 3928) rendered void

however the law never perfected or saved either!



random person,

1. If you are to live by the law of Moses then you are to live them like the jews. How do you do that?

2. You said, that to destroy the law of Moses at the cross would destroy the prophets.
Though this is not true, upon that reasoning then you have to keep 630 commandments and 1000 and more statutes and commandments.

3. If you keep all of them you will never be sick. If you fail then you have a specific judgement for disobedience such not keeping the sabbath on the appropriate day and cannot travel more than 25 or 30 miles and you cannot do any work. You have oodles of purification laws and dietary laws and ceremonial laws and tithing laws etc. All have specific blessings or curses.

4. Go to the synagogue and be proselyted in Judaism and you will find out everything you have to do.
Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and in that day he was under the Mosaic law before the cross. So if you think you have to live like Jesus in his earthly ministry that was under the covenant of law that the gentiles were never under and that was a yoke of bondage to the jews then you are wrong.

5. Till all be fulfilled was talking about his ministry as the Messiah for that period of time till the cross.
So tell me how you keep the law of Moses under the new covenant.

6. You say the law couldn't be destroyed and yet you have no problem with destroying the sacrificial laws. So what do you call that?
Hebrews 8:6-7 says the old covenant was replaced by the new covenant. It didn't say a few things and the old covenant is known to be one whole unit. I'll stop here and you can explain how you live the Mosaic law under the new covenant and how exactly you do that and tell me how you live those commandments etc. Jerry Kelso
 
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