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Challenges for pre tribulation rapture

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by DiscipleEthan, Sep 18, 2015.

  1. DiscipleEthan

    DiscipleEthan Newbie

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    I met someone who believes in a post tribulation rapture and he had a list of challenges for pre tribbers. Can all those who believe in a pre trib rapture help me respond to these challenges?

    1) Show a single verse or passage that clearly details two future comings of Jesus, namely one “for His Church” and one “with His Church”. Alternatively, show a verse or passage that describes Jesus as returning before the Great Tribulation, because these four clearly teach Him returning after: Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, Revelation 4-19, and Daniel 7.

    2) Show a single verse or passage that redefines the term “Tribulation” as meaning “the Wrath of God” instead of its primary definition of “Persecution” given to us by Jesus in Matthew 24:9, “Then shall they deliver you up [unto tribulation], and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name’s sake.” Other examples of uses of Tribulation: Matthew 24:21; John 16:21, & 33; Acts 7:10-11; Romans 5: 3; 2 Corinthians 1:3-4, 4:17; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4; etc.

    I could use all the help I can get to respond to these challenges. Thanks
     
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  2. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Quite the challenge. Good luck.
     
  3. Grafted In

    Grafted In Newbie Supporter

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    For one thing at the rapture Jesus Christ does not return to earth. We are caught up to meet Him In the air. That's not the second coming.
     
  4. Job8

    Job8 Senior Member

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    This is no big challenge.

    A. CHRIST COMES FOR HIS SAINTS -- 1 Cor 15:51-58; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Jn 3:1-3.

    B. CHRIST COMES WITH HIS SAINTS -- Jude 14,15; Rev 1:7; Rev 19:11-21

    The fact that the verses for A make no reference to the Great Tribulation should be sufficient. Furthermore, a reading of John 14:1-4 should make it clear that Christ is dealing exclusively with those who believe in God and believe on Him. There is no connection to the unsaved and the ungodly.

    To imply that this is "redefinition" is to misread Scripture. Tribulation and Wrath are two sides of the same coin (Romans 2:8,9): But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile

    The purpose the the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation is to bring judgements upon THE UNGODLY -- the evil doers -- "every soul of man that doeth evil".
     
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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  6. Crowns&Laurels

    Crowns&Laurels Well-Known Member

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    A true Christian should be prepared in all spirit and heart to endure the end of days. The voice of God remains with those of faith, and so how exactly do those left behind even hope to reach Heaven, and not be taken by the Devil?

    This is why a 'pre-tribulation' rapture is simply false. It is a feast for the naive, and a convenience for the well off. The early Christians were crucified and fed to lions- if you can't even stand before man then you certainly can't stand before God.
     
  7. MWood

    MWood Newbie

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    In this age of Grace we, the Saints, have the Holy Spirit with us and in us. When the rapture happens the Holy Spirit is removed from earth. Those left behind will only have their Bibles to get the Word of God. There will be millions that become Saints after the rapture. And there will be millions of those that will lose their life because of their faith.
    It doesn't matter if you believe in a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. If you believe you will be raptured.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2015
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.



    Rev 10:7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.



    Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"


    Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

    The End.

    Revelation chapter 12 starts with a history of the Church including the birth and death of the "man child", who is Christ.

    The rest of the book tells the story again from a different perspective.

    John was given a series of overlapping visions, that are not in chronological order.
    Rev. 11:18 proves this fact, since it contains the judgment of the dead.

    We find The End at the end of chapter 6, with those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb (Christ).

    We find The End at the end of chapter 11, with the judgment of the dead as we just saw above.

    We also find it in chapters 16 and 19 and 20.
    .

     
  9. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    So then since Jesus made no reference to the pre trib visit, should be good enough too. Jessus does not return until after the great tribulation.

    Justme
     
  10. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    I thought the exact same thing when I read the question....
     
  11. brotherjerry

    brotherjerry Well-Known Member

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    ---Nuff said---

    Well put Job8 and spot on.
     
  12. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    disciple ethan,

    1. Obviously, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 the Lord was coming for his saints from earth and will meet them in the clouds. In verse 15 Christ is bringing the dead in Christ from Heaven with him to meet the saints from earth in the clouds so we can ever be with the Lord.
    Revelation 19:11-5; Christ is coming back as a victor and a man of war with the angels and all his saints from Heaven. The first time to receive his saints and the second time to bring his saints for battle as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

    2. The trumpet judgements which are after the 7 seals are known as the wrath of the lamb which for the most part are natural judgements. Read Revelation 6:17.
    The wrath of God is found in Revelation 15:1, 16:1. This wrath of God is upon the beast kingdom who took the mark and will lead up to Armageddon.

    3. The latest a rapture for a company of saints to heaven could happen is Revelation 15:2. These got the victory over the beast and didn't take the mark, etc. These are the same people as in Revelation 20:4. This rapture has nothing to do with Christ coming back on a cloud to meet them and they obviously are coming from the earth and not out of heaven and they stand on the sea of glass. Therefore post tribulation is not possible according to the scripture and the time factor.

    4. Mid-trib rapture can't be possible because the church is already in Heaven in Revelation 4, represented by the 24 elders and they are being judged for the works in Revelation 11:18 which is under the 7th trumpet which is in the middle of the tribulation. There is no implication of them meeting Christ before at the same time in the middle of the tribulation.

    These are the scriptural reasons of why pre-trib rapture is the correct time of the rapture of the church today. God bless! Jerry kelso
     
  13. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The challenge in the OP was made in an obvious attempt to circumvent what the scriptures clearly teach. This attempt was made by demanding a single verse of scripture that states both concepts. By demanding to be shown a single verse that states both, the challenger was attempting to avoid the fact that he knew that both concepts are clearly stated in scripture, just not in the same verse.

    This is not honest treatment of the scriptures. It is a willful attempt to deceive.
     
  14. ac28

    ac28 Well-Known Member

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    I've always heard that the word translated "meet" in 1Th 4:17 has the same meaning (in the Greek) as when a child goes out to "meet" his father when he comes home from work.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2016
  15. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    crowns&laurels,

    1. We are to occupy till Christ comes back again and this is true. We are to take up our cross and be willing to be a martyr if it comes to that and there are many in the church today that are tested and end up being martyrs. We are to remain in faith and persevere to the end but what scripture says the church has to go through the tribulation and why?
    Who says that the church is not persecuted by man today? Explain yourself and your view. Jerry kelso
     
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Matthew 26:28, Romans 11:27, Hebrews 8:6, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 13:20)

    Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    .
     
  17. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    In 1930, a German by the name of Erik Peterson published a paper in which he allegedly proved a technical meaning of the Greek words used in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, where we read, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” He claimed that the Greek word apanthesis, which in this passage is translated to meet, has a special meaning. He claimed that it referred to formal meetings, in which the citizens of a city went out to meet a visiting dignitary and escorted him in honor back into the city. Thus, he imagined that he had proved that this scripture indicated that we would rise to meet Jesus as he came in power and glory, and then immediately return to earth with him. Thus, he imagined that he had disproved the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture. This work was well received and quickly became standard teaching in many theological schools.

    Of course, many other scholars rejected this notion and it became a subject for debate. So in 1994, a scholar by the name of Michael R. Cosby, who was with Sioux Falls College, decided to prove once and for all that Peterson was right. But Cosby was not only a skilled researcher, he was also an honest man. And as his studies proved the very opposite of what he wanted to prove, he published them anyway.

    His paper begins as follows:

    “In 1930 Peterson published "Die Einholung des Kyrios," an article providing quotations from ancient papyri, inscriptions and literature in order to demonstrate that behind Paul's words in 1 Thess 4:17 stands the custom of the Hellenistic formal reception of a dignitary. This viewpoint, widely held among biblical scholars, states that Paul presupposed that his readers in Thessalonica would understand his description of the Parousia in light of such receptions. Thus the formal elements of these welcoming celebrations are unstated parts of the text because of Paul's use of the technical term APANTHSIS.
    “The present study, which ironically began as an attempt to strengthen Peterson's case, reveals that APANTHSIS was not a technical term and that all of the main elements of Hellenistic receptions are missing from 1 Thess 4:15-17. An analysis of the ancient descriptions of these receptions shows that most of their usual elements are actually the opposite of what we find in Paul's description of the Parousia.”

    A few pages down, he wrote that “In retrospect I realize that my commitment to Peterson's view was based somewhat on my desire to distance myself from the childhood teachings that were now a source of embarrassment. My emotional commitment prevented me from even wanting to notice any problems with his reconstruction. What began as an effort to strengthen Peterson's argument became a disturbing exercise in scholarly honesty.”

    Cosby summarized his findings as follows:

    “HELLENISTIC FORMAL RECEPTIONS AND APANTHSIS
    “Apanthsis finds widespread use in ancient texts, but the events described vary substantially author by author. One cannot responsibly claim that apanthsis is a technical term on the basis of its percentage of use in passages describing formal receptions. Of its many occurrences in Diodorus Siculus' Bibliotheca historica, for example, most involve the meeting of soldiers in battle, and the same is true for the historical work of Polybius. Sometimes apanthsis describes a formal greeting of a dignitary, but often it does not. And some descriptions of such receptions do not use apanthsis or upanthsis (or the verb forms of these words).
    “A computer search of the literature written during the several centuries surrounding Paul's era using the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae (TLG) produced 91 pages of citations of passages that employ forms of apanthsis, apantaw, upanthsis, and upantaw. Yet only a minority of the uses of these terms describes formal receptions. For example, in the passages located, Philo Judaeus uses these words 27 times, but not once to describe the meeting of a dignitary. Similarly, Josephus employs them 92 times, but only ten times in descriptions of formal receptions. In the LXX the noun apanthsis is used frequently in 1-2 Samuel, 1-2 Kings, 1-2 Chronicles and sporadically in other books, particularly 1-3 Maccabees. Often it designates the hostile meeting of armies, although it also describes virtually any kind of meeting.”
     
  18. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. There is no mention of the church of today in these passages.

    2. Matthew 28:26 is Jesus saying his blood was the new testament and this is true because of Calvary. This part of the new covenant for the whole world was fulfilled at the cross.
    Jeremiah 31:31-34 was the offer of the new covenant in the old testament times to the nation of Israel only because the gentiles didn't have a covenant and they were to be proselyted into Judaism.

    3. The part about Israel accepting Christ as a nation was not fulfilled at the cross or after the cross and they are still backslidden today as a nation.

    4. Romans 11:27; For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. This has not happened for the context of this scripture is all of Israel being saved when the time of the gentiles be come in and Christ has to come out of the heavenly Sion and turn away ungodliness from Jacob. This will be the second advent Revelation 1:7 and Revelation 19:11-15. Read your bible and get the time factor right.
    Hebrews 8:6 happened at Calvary. Verses 8-11 is future and has not happened for it is the same exact thing said in Jeremiah concerning when Christ takes away Israel's sins and they shall not teach every man his neighbor and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord; : for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Israel is still backslidden today and the millennial kingdom has not started so they are not at the head of the nations. This is the context and you need to understand the proper perspective.

    5. Hebrews 12:24; Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel. That has nothing to do with the new covenant being established with the nation of Israel according to their covenant. The church today is jews and gentiles in one body in this age. Israel has a nation that was established in 1948 and they are still backslidden and they will not come back to God until the time of the gentiles be come in.

    6. You need to quit trying to muddy the waters of the fact of the new covenant being established at Calvary so therefore it was made with the nation automatically in the early church time.

    7. Just because the early church was mostly jewish and that was because they were from Jesus ministry and the nation of Israel and just because Peter had the mindset of the KOH coming to pass even though Christ said it was not for them to know the times and season about the KOH and just because it took 8-10 years before the vision of the clean and unclean doesn't mean that Israel as a nation had the new covenant for most of the leaders didn't believe in the new covenant and the church had to grow because it was the church age and not the time for the kingdom and not to mention the fact that the tribulation had to take place and the church had to grow in order for Israel to be jealous which Paul talked about and the fact is that the KOH and the KOG is connected to Israel's covenants with the earthly calling of being at the head of the nations.

    8. The church will not be at the head of the nations even though we will have rulership positions. This is what we are being trained for now 2 Timothy 2:12. Israel has to be purged in order to fullfill their covenants and to gain entrance into the KOH. They will believe the death, burial and resurrection in that day they receive Christ for when Christ comes back to establish the KOH by way of Armageddon they shall look on him whom they have pierced. They will recognize the suffering savior they missed the first time.

    9. Hebrews 13:20; Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.
    The book of Hebrews was written to Hebrew christians to contrast the old and new so they completely understand the better promises of the new covenant Hebrews 8:6. They were in the church of jews and gentiles whether or not they were mostly jews or not and vice versa with Paul's congregations mostly gentiles.

    10. Paul called the chief of jews together and said he was not guilty of breaking the customs of the jews etc. and the Romans would have let them go but because those jews kept speaking against him he was constrained to appeal to Caesar not because he had any reason to want to accuse them of anything but for the hope of Israel.

    11. He reasoned to them out of the law and the prophets concerning Jesus and some believed and some didn't. Then he quoted Esaias the prophet about hearing the shall hear and shall not understand etc. which was the same thing Jesus told them in his ministry. He said that salvation of God is sent unto the gentiles and that they will hear it.

    12. So you are wrong that the nation of Israel accepted the new covenant for their covenant to be fulfilled.

    13. Revelation 12 is the context of the nation of Israel fleeing into the wilderness and has nothing to do with the body of Christ of jews and gentiles. The church is no where in this passage and you cannot prove it scripturally of the context.

    14. Revelation 12:12 is the devil being cast out of heaven and no longer will be the accuser of the brethren and this is the mystery of God in Revelation 10:7. Christ return to earth was not a mystery it was a know fact way before John wrote Revelation.

    15. When the accuser of the brethren is cast out and is no longer the accuser of the brethren he goes after the nation of Israel and not the body of Christ which is the church today. Get your scriptural facts straight. Jerry kelso
     
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    There is absolutely ZERO text stating that every Israelite will accept the New Covenant.


    Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

    The promoters of John Darby's doctrine change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner (Greek-houto) into the word "then", which is an adverb of time, in an attempt to make their doctrine work in Romans 11:26.



    Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    (The Israelites broken off of the Olive Tree can be grafted back into the tree by faith in Christ.
    This is the "manner" of their salvation.)



    Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    (And in this manner all Israel shall be saved. That is by being grafted into the Olive Tree, which is what Romans chapter 11 is about.)

    Paul had already said all of the Israelites would not be saved by explaining the difference between the Israelites of the Flesh and the Israelites of the Promise.


    Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:



    Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.





    This passage explains the children of the promise, who are Abraham's seed.

    Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


    Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


    .

     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2016
  20. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean,

    1. Romans 11:26; AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED : as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

    NOTICE THE WORD ALL WHICH MEANS THE WHOLE NATION. ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!

    HEBREWS SAYS THAT GOD WILL MAKE A COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOUSE OF JUDAH IN HEBREWS 8:8 AND IN VERSE 11; AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERY MAN HIS NEIGHBOUR AND EVERY MAN HIS BROTHER, SAYING, KNOW THE LORD: FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST. THIS WILL HAPPEN IN THE TRIBULATION AND WHEN GOD COMES BACK AT ARMAGEDDON AND ISRAEL WILL BECOME THE CAPITOL OF THE WORLD.

    2. Romans 9:27; a remnant will be saved in the tribulation. Revelation 12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    What you fail to realize is that all of Israel will accept Christ and he will write his laws into their minds and in their hearts and forgive their sins. This has to happen before the nation can fulfill their covenant of David concerning the kingdom as the head of the nations found in Isaiah 2:1-4.

    The words are, and so shall all Israel be saved. The word so just adds emphasis to the word all. That is the manner which is backed up by the previous phrase (until the fulness of the gentiles be come in. You are the one wanting to alter the word all and that is incorrect and where you go wrong.

    3. First of all, Romans 11:26 is future to the tribulation because Christ will come out the Heavenly Mount Sion. So we are not talking about at Calvary.
    All Israel didn't accept Christ in the early church and that is true but it was not time for another chance at the KOH and the KOG message to be fulfilled because only the father knew when that time would be.
    The jews rejected Paul's ministry and he went to the gentiles. At the same time he understood the covenants for he was a jew himself. Romans 11:11; I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    Jews were grafted in in that day because they were saved though not all and there was a remnant even then. However, the time factor of the full grafting in comes at the end of the tribulation. Whether or not the church is not pre-rapture doesn't even make a difference for all Israel will still be saved in that day and Romans 11:26 focus is not the manner of merely being grafted in but ALL of Israel will be saved.
    In Jesus ministry all jews were not saved and the bulk of the nation did not accept Christ because they rejected him Matthew 23:37-39. You are confused about the time factor of the KOH and the KOG message leading to all Israel will be saved. One has to keep the church age separate from the jews covenants concerning the KOH.

    4. Romans 9:6; In Paul's day all Israel was not Israel and that is true. Romans 9:8 is talking about the church of jews and gentiles.

    5. Galatians 3:16 talking about salvation coming to the gentiles through Abraham and 3:29 Paul is talking about the difference of law and grace. It is all about the jew and the gentile in one body alike. Verse 26; For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

    6. Romans 11:28; As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

    7. The point is that none of this matters in the future tribulation when they come back to God when it comes down all Israel being saved before they take their covenant place at the head of the nations.

    8. You have salvation of the jewish nation of Israel in the church age and they can be grafted in again though they were rejecting him as a whole.
    The other context is the nation of Israel being saved to actually fulfilling the covenants of Abraham and David specific to their Kingdom promises of their earthly calling in the future.


    9. Peter had the mentality of the KOH and I don't deny that and he knew the promises and signs surrounding the KOH being at hand such as the day of Pentecost when they were filled with the HOLY GHOST and speaking tongues and he quoted that what was happening was like in the book of Joel. He was not saying it was a fulfilling because he knew the part of Joel and the restoration of the land had to happen as well.

    10. The KOH was not being offered again to the nation of Israel as far as God was concerned for Jesus said only the father knew about the times and seasons.
    Peter didn't have the full revelation of the church of jew and gentile in one body. It was 8-10 years after the day of Pentecost that that happened. Gradual revelation is how things unfolded down through the ages.

    11. Things were prophesied and had a specific time of fulfillment but there are other things have to unfold within time. The church was pre-destined but the unfolding of things concerning the church didn't happen all at once.

    12. The KOH for the KOH reign to come forth in the early church as God giving them another chance is not true and not logical. It was the major doctrine of their covenant that Peter knew and understand and God had another thing going on called the church and it took him a while to start learning this.
    Paul said in Ephesians 2:13-16 talks about the middle wall of partition being broken down at Calvary. Verse 16; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity. The work of the mystery of the church in chapter 3 of jews and gentiles in one body to make one new man happened at Calvary prophetically. It didn't come to full fruition until Peter got the vision of the clean and the unclean and Paul given the revelation and given the dispensation of the grace of God. This is one form of gradual revelation.

    13. AND SO ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT NOT ALL ISRAEL NOT BEING SAVED WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE PROPER PERSPECTIVE WITH THE PROPER TIME FACTOR AND THE PROPER OVERALL CONTEXT!!!!!!! Jerry Kelso
     
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