Challenge to Creationists who dismiss evolution!

steve_bakr

Christian
Aug 3, 2011
5,918
240
✟22,533.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Delphiki said:
...and cars and bicycles don't reproduce on their own, nor with each other, nor are living things, nor are made of organic compounds, nor operate ont heir own without some human intervention... and so on.

A mechanism which is no different that when a person strikes a nail with a hammer or turns a bolt with a wrench.

Yet look completely different than the resulting organism, and you accept that. But you won't accept the morphological similarities between various primates as an indication of evolution (which is the point of the OP).

Except in matters where creationists are concerned. Creationists could use a good dose of "Darwinism". I wouldn't be too upset if creationists earn their Darwin awards by ultimately rejecting the same medicine we owe advances in evolutionary biology to. But I guess creationists don't have that much faith in creationism. How about the next time you come down with a terminal illness you just pray?

Creationism is not in itself a religion. My religion is Catholicism, which accepts deistic evolution. A see no conflict with Catholicism in believing that God provided us with the intelligence and resources to create medicines for the treatment of illness.

Peace
 
Upvote 0

Mike Elphick

Not so new...
Oct 7, 2009
826
40
Nottingham, England
Visit site
✟8,749.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
...and cars and bicycles don't reproduce on their own, nor with each other,
Doesn't matter. Tests on both reveal the same results- limited adaptation governed by intelligence and degradation over time by stochastic processes.

I want to see the scientific tests, details, methods, results and conclusions!

I'm particularly interested in the self-reproducing bicycles and cars.
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,446
803
71
Chicago
✟121,700.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I say this because creationists compare fossils of hominids and insist that they are not hominid since they resemble chimps more.

Creationists refuse to accept Evolution simply because this will mean that they will have to admit that humans belong to the greater ape family and that all life forms are genetically related in some way or another.

A human sperm bears absolutely no resemblance to a human but is almost identical to all sperms from the animal kingdom.

How can this be? A single celled creature with a tail fusing with a round single celled creature brings forth humans?

I would like creationists to ponder on this for a moment as the sperm egg example shows exactly how biological change happens and how this process is common in most animals inhabiting this planet.

Are you going to reconsider that statement? It is seriously wrong.
 
Upvote 0

mzungu

INVICTUS
Dec 17, 2010
7,162
250
Earth!
✟24,975.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Are you going to reconsider that statement? It is seriously wrong.
How so?

Just to prove my point:

images
 
Upvote 0

Mike Elphick

Not so new...
Oct 7, 2009
826
40
Nottingham, England
Visit site
✟8,749.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
I wouldn't be too upset if creationists earn their Darwin awards by ultimately rejecting the same medicine we owe advances in evolutionary biology to. But I guess creationists don't have that much faith in creationism.

I use creationism and see it being used in medicine, where the mind is the mediator and creator of matter. A process which began as such and is still in continuation today. Careful, the main source of evidence for Darwinusm (adaptation) may just be the most prominent piece of evidence for Creationism. The irony continues.

Greg1234 said:
Delphiki said:
How about the next time you come down with a terminal illness you just pray?

No probs. We now have information that the oasis of life within man can bring about his rectification. Some of what you attribute to the placebo effect. Here's one exposition The German New Medicine a new Natural Science" by Professor Dr. Hans Ulrich Niemitz

"German New Medicine" is the brainchild of Dr. Ryke Geerd Hamer. I've looked at the website Introduction to Dr. Hamer's German New Medicine and in my opinion classify this as pseudo-scientific quackery. It seems I'm not alone in my thinking:-

Ryke Geerd Hamer (born 17 May 1935 in Mettmann), a former German physician, is the originator of Germanic New Medicine, also formerly known as German New Medicine and New Medicine, a system of pseudo-medicine that purports to be able to cure cancer. The Swiss Cancer League described Hamer's approach as "dangerous, especially as it lulls the patients into a false sense of security, so that they are deprived of other effective treatments."

Hamer held a licence to practice medicine from 1963 until 1986 when it was revoked for malpractice. Hamer's system came to public attention in 1995, when the parents of a child suffering from cancer refused medical treatment in favour of Hamer's methods. Hamer is charged and convicted in several European countries and is responsible for numerous deaths among his patients.

Hamer purports that his method is a "Germanic" alternative to mainstream clinical medicine which he claims is part of a Jewish conspiracy to decimate non-Jews.
Ryke Geerd Hamer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Ryke Geerd Hamer

I'm not exactly against alternative medicine, and have even written an article about it, but this stuff is amongst the worst I have ever seen.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Greg1234

In the beginning was El
May 14, 2010
3,745
38
✟11,792.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
"German New Medicine" is the brainchild of Dr. Ryke Geerd Hamer. I've looked at the website Introduction to Dr. Hamer's German New Medicine and in my opinion classify this as pseudo-scientific quackery.

I expected nothing less

It seems I'm not alone in my thinking:-

Already seen this Dr. med. Ryke Geerd Hamer – a short biography


Dr. Hamer’s research radically upsets the many existing theories of conventional medicine. His explanation of disease as a meaningful interplay between the psyche, the brain and the corresponding organ refutes the view that disease occurs by chance or as a result of a mistake of nature. Based on sound scientific criteria, German New Medicine shatters the myths of malignant cancer cells or of destructive microbes and identifies "infectious diseases" as well as cancerous tumors as natural biological emergency measures, in practice for millions of years, designed to save the organism and not, as we have been taught, to destroy it. Diseases such as cancer lose their frightening image and are recognized as meaningful special biological survival programs every human being is born with.

In October 1981, Dr. Hamer presented his research to the University of Tübingen as a post-doctoral thesis. The objective was to have his findings tested on equivalent cases so that German New Medicine could be taught to all medical students and patients could benefit from the discoveries as soon as possible. But to his great surprise, the University committee rejected his work and refused to evaluate his thesis, an unprecedented case in the history of universities. There was yet another surprise. Shortly after he had handed in his thesis, Dr. Hamer was given the ultimatum to either deny his findings or his contract would not be renewed. It was extremely difficult for him to understand why he was being expelled from the clinic for presenting well-substantiated scientific findings. After his dismissal, he retreated to his private practice where he continued his research. Several attempts to open a private clinic failed because of concerted efforts opposing it. Letters of Dr. Hamer’s patients to health officials remained unanswered or were returned with the comment: “Not applicable!”. The firm position of the authorities has not changed.

In 1985, after 29 years of marriage and the raising of four children, Sigrid Hamer died. She had never really recovered from the grief over the death of her son and the relentless intimidation by the Savoy family.

The harassment of Dr. Hamer culminated in 1986, when a court sentence stopped him from practicing medicine. Despite the fact that his scientific work had never been disproved, he lost, at the age of 51, his medical license on the grounds that he refused to renounce his findings on the origin of cancer and to conform to the principles of official medicine. Deprived of a medical license, Dr. Hamer now relied on other doctors to obtain brain scans and patients’ records. But he was determined to continue his work. By 1987 Dr. Hamer had already analyzed over 10,000 cases and was able to expand his discovery of the Five Biological Laws of German New Medicine to practically all diseases known in medicine. Meanwhile, the press and the medical establishment stopped at nothing to attack him and his work. Tabloid journalists and medical “experts” portray Dr. Hamer as a charlatan, a self acclaimed miracle healer, a cult leader, an irrational outsider, or an insane criminal who denied cancer patients the ‘life-saving’ conventional treatments.[bless and do not curse]

In 1997 Dr. Hamer was arrested and sentenced to 19 months in prison for having given three people free medical information without a medical license. By contrast, in 1991, thirteen years after he had killed Dirk Hamer, Victor Emanuel of Savoy had been sentenced to a mere 6 months probation for the illegal possession of a weapon. When Dr. Hamer was arrested, the police searched his patient files. Subsequently, one public prosecutor was forced to admit during the trial that, after MORE THAN five years, of 6,500 patients with mostly ‘terminal’ cancer, 6,000 were still alive. [bless and do not curse]And so, ironically, it was his opponents that provided the actual statistics attesting to German New Medicine’s remarkable success rate. Yet, to this day (see document March 12, 2008), the University of Tübingen refuses, despite court orders in 1986 and 1994, to test Dr. Hamer’s scientific work. Similarly, official medicine refuses to approve German New Medicine despite its numerous verifications by both physicians and professorial associations.

On September 9th, 2004, Dr. Hamer was arrested at his home in Spain. Following a European extradition order, Dr. Hamer was extradited to France, where he was held in the French prison Fleury-Mérogis. Dr. Hamer was sentenced to three years in prison without probation. The charges: “fraud and the complicity in the illegal practice of medicine”. He has been charged and found responsible for the deaths of French citizens due to the availability of his publications in French.[bless and do not curse] It should be mentioned that Dr. Hamer had never spoken to any of the individuals in person. (Details in Letter to International PEN - see[bless and do not curse])

Dr. Hamer was released from his unjustified incarceration in February 2006. In March 2007, he was forced to leave his Spanish exile. He now resides in Sandefjord, Norway.​


I'm not exactly against alternative medicine, and have even written an article about it, but this stuff is amongst the worst I have ever seen.

"Thus, what we might expect to have evolved" Nope.
 
Upvote 0

Greg1234

In the beginning was El
May 14, 2010
3,745
38
✟11,792.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I want to see the scientific tests, details, methods, results and conclusions!

I'm particularly interested in the self-reproducing bicycles and cars.



Germinal reproduction only manifests the effects of adaptation and degradation. No such feature is required in bicycles, or the soma for such a manifestation to take place. The adaptation feature is paralleled. Reproduction does not cause adaptation, the adaptation feature along with stochastic processes acting on the organism cause adaptation and degradation. The reproductive feature is responsible for the continuation of the organism and like all other mechanical operations, is also subject to wear and tear.
 
Upvote 0

Delphiki

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2010
4,342
161
Ohio
✟5,675.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Doesn't matter. Tests on both reveal the same results- limited adaptation governed by intelligence and degradation over time by stochastic processes.



Doesnt matter, as given above




Doesn't matter, as given above



Oh living organisms have intervention. But as to your point, doesn't matter, as given above.



Etc

Oh, but they ALL matter. They are all required for evolution to take place. This is why every time you bring up bikes, cars, ceiling fans,and 747s, you sound like an idiot.


Yes tests show that it is impotent and that's why it is. Congratulations!

Tests show that the mechanisms behind changing gears in automobiles is impotent? What the hell does that even mean? What tests? What's this have to do with evolution? Try speaking clearly, please.


The starting of the car in production looks nothing like the car.

Idiot.



I don't believe that bacteria can turn into a monkey.

That's good, because that's not what the Theory of Evolution says either. I also said "similarities between primates" -- bacteria is not a primate.




I don't know about them, but I do. I use creationism and see it being used in medicine, where the mind is the mediator and creator of matter. A process which began as such and is still in continuation today. Careful, the main source of evidence for Darwinusm (adaptation) may just be the most prominent piece of evidence for Creationism. The irony continues.

You've still been unable to show how creationism is applied in any way whatsoever. The belief that an all-powerful, omniscient being blinked us into existence has no relation in the development of medicine -- unless you can give an example. Which you can't, but I'm willing to see you try.



No probs. We now have information that the oasis of life within man can bring about his rectification. Some of what you attribute to the placebo effect. Here's one exposition The German New Medicine a new Natural Science" by Professor Dr. Hans Ulrich Niemitz

If i want then I might go to the hospital. The idea that bacteria can turn into men has nothing to do with it. Additionally, it still takes the mind (and other factors i will not get into here) or it will never heal or keep recurring. It's a lottery game in some cases and the medicine itself kills you in others. But overall it's a good practice in the name of wellness. It doesn't have to find the root cause and can alleviate symptoms with the constant administration of medication. But its a shame that basic herbs created are downplayed to the extent that they are.


Thank you for admitting that the only application prayer has is the placebo effect at the cost of your mortal soul being given to Satan. lol
You realize the placebo effect only works if you don't know your prescription is a placebo, right?
 
Upvote 0

Delphiki

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2010
4,342
161
Ohio
✟5,675.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Creationism is not in itself a religion. My religion is Catholicism, which accepts deistic evolution. A see no conflict with Catholicism in believing that God provided us with the intelligence and resources to create medicines for the treatment of illness.

Peace

It's not a religion by itself, but it is a religious belief. Nobody has ever arrived at creationist conclusions as a result of the scientific method.
 
Upvote 0

Delphiki

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2010
4,342
161
Ohio
✟5,675.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Germinal reproduction only manifests the effects of adaptation and degradation. No such feature is required in bicycles, or the soma for such a manifestation to take place. The adaptation feature is paralleled. Reproduction does not cause adaptation, the adaptation feature along with stochastic processes acting on the organism cause adaptation and degradation. The reproductive feature is responsible for the continuation of the organism and like all other mechanical operations, is also subject to wear and tear.

We can tell you are full of crap and have no idea what you're talking about when you talk in word salad. Thank you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mike Elphick

Not so new...
Oct 7, 2009
826
40
Nottingham, England
Visit site
✟8,749.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Already seen this Dr. med. Ryke Geerd Hamer – a short biography


Dr. Hamer’s research radically upsets....

bla, bla, bla...

Dr. Hamer was released from his unjustified incarceration in February 2006. In March 2007, he was forced to leave his Spanish exile. He now resides in Sandefjord, Norway.​

Poor, poor persecuted Dr Hamer. I mean all he is doing is practicing what he believes:-

Sometime after Dirk's death [Hamer's son], Hamer began to develop Germanic New Medicine (GNM), which can be summarized in its “five biological laws”:

1st law (“Iron Rule”): Severe diseases originate from a shock event which is experienced by the individual as very difficult, highly acute, dramatic and isolating. The shock’s psychological conflict content determines the location of the appearance of a focus of activity in the brain that can be seen in a CT scan as a set of concentric rings, called "Hamer foci," which correspond to the location of the disease in the body. The subsequent development of the conflict determines the development of both the brain focus and the disease.

2nd law (Two phased nature of disease): A patient who has not solved their conflict is in the first, active conflict phase, where the sympathetic nervous system predominates and which manifests as a “cold disease” accompanied by cold skin and extremities, stress, weight loss and sleep disorders. If they manage to resolve the conflict, they enter a second, post-resolution healing phase, in which the parasympathetic nervous system predominates, commonly diagnosed as a separate “warm” (rheumatic, infectious, allergic, etc.) disease. This second phase is the one which usually entails more risks, and a complete cure only comes upon its completion. In some circumstances, not solving the conflict but downgrading it to a reasonably livable level may be preferable than facing the second phase.

3rd law (Ontogenetic system of diseases): Hamer proposes that disease progression is primarily controlled by the brain, either by the "old brain" (brain stem and cerebellum) or the "new brain" (cerebrum). The old brain controls more primitive processes, having to do with basic survival, such as breathing, eating, and reproduction, whereas the new brain manages more advanced personal and social issues, such as territorial conflicts, separation conflicts and self-devaluation and identity conflicts. Hamer's research is tied to the science of embryology because he links the type of disease progression—whether involving tissue augmentation (tumor growth), tissue loss (necrosis or ulceration) or functional impairment—with the embryonic germ layer (endoderm, mesoderm or ectoderm) from which both the organ tissues and the corresponding brain regions originate. Conflicts which have their focus either in the brain stem (which controls body tissues that derive from the endoderm) or the cerebellum (which controls tissues that derive from the mesoderm) show cell multiplication in the conflict active phase, and destruction of the resulting tumors in the healing phase. Cerebrum directed conflicts (affecting the rest of mesoderm-derived tissues and all ectoderm-derived ones) show either cell decrease (necroses, ulcers) or function impairment or interruption in the active phase, and the replenishment of the damaged tissues in the healing phase (which can also be diagnosed as a tumor).

4th law (Ontogenetic system of microbes): Microbes do not cause diseases but are used by the body, coordinated by the brain, to optimize the healing phase, provided that the required microbes are available when needed. Fungi and mycobacteria work on tissues that originated in the endoderm, as well as on some of the tissues originating in the mesoderm. Bacteria work on all mesoderm derived tissues and viruses on ectoderm derived ones. Hamer maintains that these microbes, rather than being antagonistic to the body, actually perform a necessary role in healing. And that some of the interventions of conventional medicine are counterproductive, by interfering with these natural processes.

5th law (“Quintessence”): The conflict active phase and the healing phase of diseases, as described above, constitute “special meaningful programs of nature,” developed during the evolution of the species, to allow organisms to override everyday functioning in order to deal with particular emergency situations.

Therefore according to Hamer no real diseases exist and what established medicine calls a disease is in reality a "special meaningful program of nature" (sinvolles biologisches Sonderprogramm) to which bacteria, viruses and fungi belong too. Hamer's GNM explains every disease and treatment with those biological laws, making traditional medicine in most cases obsolete in his view. The cure is always the resolving of the conflict. Some treatments like chemotherapy or pain relieving drugs like morphine are deadly according to Hamer.
Ryke Geerd Hamer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anybody who believes in Hamer's 'laws' can believe any old rubbish (i.e. young Earth creationism). From my point of view it is sick, very sick.


Greg1234 said:
"Thus, what we might expect to have evolved" Nope.

These are not my words.
 
Upvote 0

Incariol

Newbie
Apr 22, 2011
5,710
251
✟7,523.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Delphiki said:
We can tell you are full of crap and have no idea what you're talking about when you talk in word salad. Thank you.

*with infinite weariness*

My darling Delphiki, that goes for all of the creationists on this forum, nit just Greg.

Sent from my iPod touch using Forum Runner
 
Upvote 0

Delphiki

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2010
4,342
161
Ohio
✟5,675.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
*with infinite weariness*

My darling Delphiki, that goes for all of the creationists on this forum, nit just Greg.

Sent from my iPod touch using Forum Runner

True, but at least with everyone else, you can understand their sentences. Greg just kind of ... I dunno... Types random "sciencey-sounding words" and hopes they confuse people into thinking he's right. They each have their own strategy, I suppose.
 
Upvote 0

Mike Elphick

Not so new...
Oct 7, 2009
826
40
Nottingham, England
Visit site
✟8,749.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
...and cars and bicycles don't reproduce on their own, nor with each other,

Doesn't matter. Tests on both reveal the same results- limited adaptation governed by intelligence and degradation over time by stochastic processes.

I want to see the scientific tests, details, methods, results and conclusions!

I'm particularly interested in the self-reproducing bicycles and cars.

Germinal reproduction only manifests the effects of adaptation and degradation. No such feature is required in bicycles, or the soma for such a manifestation to take place. The adaptation feature is paralleled. Reproduction does not cause adaptation, the adaptation feature along with stochastic processes acting on the organism cause adaptation and degradation. The reproductive feature is responsible for the continuation of the organism and like all other mechanical operations, is also subject to wear and tear.

I don't understand a word you're saying. You quoted some test results purporting to show that it doesn't matter if things reproduce or they don't.

Please supply details of the tests you claim have been performed.
 
Upvote 0

Greg1234

In the beginning was El
May 14, 2010
3,745
38
✟11,792.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Poor, poor persecuted Dr Hamer. I mean all he is doing is practicing what he believes:-

As all do.



Anybody who believes in Hamer's 'laws' can believe any old rubbish (i.e. young Earth creationism). From my point of view it is sick, very sick.

It's a wonder you don't get into this right off the bat and try to conceal it under "I have no problem with alt med." Are you forgetting that I've been here a while and I'm already aware of the hysteria you're holding back? But it's a good thing you've already indicated that you're involved in the mainstream field of practice as you serve as an optimal poster child for the mindset of personnel operating behind closed doors. While some are led to think that they are merely indifferent scientists open to new ideas and perseveringly seeking the benefit of mankind this lollipop and rainbows scenario is overshadowed by the actual antagonistic mindset revealing itself in water-cooler fanaticism and radical smothering.

Dr Hamer's work is one in progress and as such imay serve as postulates or hypotheses to explain the undeniable link between the mind and these types of physucal changes. That link is the only one one can recognize to regard the work being done and follow the progress being made, not the more detailed research. He of course has a right to practice his work, construct a hypothesis, publish the results he obtained, and deduce without being ridiculed even if derision, for the most part, seems to be the predominant impetus behind the use of the "Mike Elphick" account. You posted his work and made fun of it. And while I admire your use here of the esoteric scientific method, I'll have to dismiss it.


These are not my words.

Doesn't matter. You were endorsing it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

driewerf

a day at the Zoo
Mar 7, 2010
3,322
1,897
✟260,010.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Oh, but they ALL matter. They are all required for evolution to take place. This is why every time you bring up bikes, cars, ceiling fans,and 747s, you sound like an idiot.
That's because the darwinian theory of the macroevolution from bycicles to cars is impotent. That is direct evidence of the Creator.

Tests show that the mechanisms behind changing gears in automobiles is impotent? What the hell does that even mean? What tests? What's this have to do with evolution? Try speaking clearly, please.
Did you ever seen a bycicle give birth to a car? No. That's impssible! Well this is clear evidence that the ToE is wrong and evil.


That's good, because that's not what the Theory of Evolution says either. I also said "similarities between primates" -- bacteria is not a primate.
Screw do not evolve into cars. Therefor darwinian evolution is impossible.


You've still been unable to show how creationism is applied in any way whatsoever. The belief that an all-powerful, omniscient being blinked us into existence has no relation in the development of medicine -- unless you can give an example. Which you can't, but I'm willing to see you try.
Did a bycicle ever give birth to a car? No. Nonetheless car mechanics can repair cars. ergo doctors can heal patients. Barwinian evolutio has never healed someone. Only prayers do. And prayers fix cars. Not evolution from fans into airplanes.








;)
 
Upvote 0

driewerf

a day at the Zoo
Mar 7, 2010
3,322
1,897
✟260,010.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums