• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Cessationist and Sola Scriptura don't mix

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

    +432
    Christian
    Yes, in Acts 2 there were tongues of fire that descended on the disciples. Where are those tongues of fire today? Paul saw a blinding light and spoke to Christ at his conversion. Should we all expect the same today? Paul was bitten by a poisonous snake and survived. Should we all expect to have the same ability?
     
  2. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    I admit this topic is less about apostles and prophets and more about tongues. And certainly with the absence of support in scripture for the ceasing with the latter should this not be the greater focus of why it is so widely dismissed?
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  3. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

    +432
    Christian
    The context is spiritual gifts. Knowledge is not listed as a spiritual gift. 'Word of knowledge' is. It is one of the 3 gifts that ceased, along with tongues and prophecy.
     
  4. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +5,457
    Christian
    Married
    Most Christians worldwide are not cessationists.
     
  5. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

    +432
    Christian
    The process I have described is such an abstract concept, and makes far more exegetical sense in the context of the passage than would our resurrected bodies! (imo).
     
  6. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +5,457
    Christian
    Married
    Tongues are paradoxical in that they are most easily and most frequently faked...not to mention having become a minor doctrine in a couple of denominations.

    But it's just as erroneous to base a doctrine on the necessity of tongues as it is to base a doctrine on the rejection of tongues.

    There are, after all, other spiritual gifts.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  7. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

    +432
    Christian
    Only those gifts such as apostles and prophets which are now redundant.
     
  8. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    they are both abstract, one is confirmed in scripture the other is not. My preference is to side with that which is confirmed in scripture. What stops us from a 3rd, 4th or 999th abstract event that we decided to fit in here? What stops us is scripture and that's what limits my creativity on this subject.
     
  9. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    there are a lot of examples of abuse in the church but this is not a cause to reject scriptural doctrines but rather to affirm them.
     
  10. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    what is your understand of what "the perfect" refers to in 1 Corinthians 13:10 and how does this relate to the gifts of tongues?
     
  11. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

    +502
    United States
    Charismatic
    Married
    .
    In your saying that, I have an interesting side note to add.

    Mar 16:15-18
    15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
    18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


    I find it interesting, the Believers are the ones spoken of, therefore it wasn't only the Apostles with the Gifts, they were for the Body of Christ.

    Rom 12:4-6
    4) For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
    5) So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
    6) Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

    Eph 4:11-13
    11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12) For the Perfecting (MATURING) of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a Perfect (MATURE) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

    Here is my theory, how about the Body of Christ being,

    "When That which is (MATURE) is Come"

    1Co. 13:10
    But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    When the Body of Christ has been Perfected, there will be no more need, for the Gifts of the Spirit....Just something else to consider.

    I have used the word Perfect, only because that is Scripture, and holding to Sola Scriptura to validate what Scripture says and shows us, but I fully believe the word should be understood to mean (MATURE, MATURED,).

    As that being the Maturity of the Body with Jesus being the Head
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
  12. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    the rationale is within 1 Cor 13:10. if the perfect is an event analogous with Christ return this implies the gifts will continue until this event.
     
  13. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

    +432
    Christian
    If you agree apostles and prophets have ceased, then what is so problematic about tongues also ceasing just as 1 Cor 13 said it would, along with prophecy. Especially seeing as it did actually cease.
     
  14. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

    +547
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    A modern argumentum ad populum shouldn't be confused with past history, especially a history lacking modern conveniences of transportation and communication. Continualism should be even more prevalent in past history than cessationalism for lack of means to educate people to the contrary, but it is not the case by a long long long shot.
     
  15. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

    +432
    Christian
    But your suggestion (which as far as I am aware is not shared by any commentator of 1 Cor 13:8-13) doesn't fit the passage, whereas the canon theory does (far more than any other alternative imo).
     
  16. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +5,457
    Christian
    Married
    Continuation of spiritual gifts is historical.
     
  17. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    the perfect meaning "the body of Christ" I don't think quite fits. It doesn't really help the conversation in showing us when the body of Christ will be perfected as the answer would be highly subjective. Was it perfected at the end of the 1st century? is it still yet to be perfected? Plus we need to reconcile the meaning of "then face to face".

    The closing of Mark is cited as these type of "signed" gifts which could be an argument for apostles but reading Acts you quickly see that thousands prophesy and speak in tongues
     
  18. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    because it's irresponsible and is a strawman
     
  19. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

    +547
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Continualism in America in what I'll call mainstream Christianity largely began around the period of time of the early years of the Methodist Church (which is an interesting story in itself). It started as a "Holiness Movement", with Arminianism as a theological framework. John Wesley one of the founders of the Methodist Church, believed a person could obtain perfection in this lifetime, not to be confused with the imputed righteousness of Christ, but rather through sanctification by the Holy Spirit.
     
  20. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    the canon does not fit scripture so why should it fit this passage? The completion of the canon in itself is an event unarticulated in scripture.
     
Loading...