Hello W2L.
Is an evangelist a type of apostle?
The ministry of evangelism is not mentioned, I wonder why?
Is an evangelist a type of apostle?
I dunno, what do you think?The ministry of evangelism is not mentioned, I wonder why?
...the two main two options are that 'completeness' is either the 2nd coming of Christ or the completion and distribution of the canon and subsequent maturing of the church.
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
That scripture is often taken out of context. Look at it again. What do they believe in? Signs and miracles? Nopeblessed are those who believe without seeing
Hello W2L.Paul mentions signs of an apostle. Apparently apostles have many gifts. They are teachers, healers, prophets, speakers of tongues, etc...
I dunno, what do you think?
That's a good question. I'm inclined to say No.
Its a simple denial of something that a minority of Christians have decided to erect as a doctrine in their own churches. And the term itself is only what these people call traditional Christians of any denomination who do not follow along.
As I said, most of us consider it to have been confirmed by the experience of the church, just as we say that the verse which teaches that the Holy Ghost will lead the church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it has been borne out by the fact that the church is still here and gaining members. No one who is pro-Sola Scriptura is denying the passage about tongues. But there is a matter of interpretation there.
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 says "Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away"
Cessationist use this passage to say that this is identifying the revelatory gifts and claim that "the perfect" has come and these gifts are no more. Essentially they say this "perfect" is the product of the 1st century such as the completion of the NT or the first wave spreading the Church. The problem with this interpretation is it's highly cryptic and is the only passage in the bible that would actually talk about this point of time. If we going to use Sola Scriptura methods should we not be a little more responsible with our interpretations? If Paul actually intended this to mean some mysterious time around the end of the first century you would think there would be something to confirm this?
The Cessationist view has only come out from a reaction to pentecostal movements that they were unwilling to accept so they started with what they wanted scripture to say then used then search of a spot where it could fit but is a very irresponsible way of interpreting. Reality is before the 19th century dominate interpretation was that the perfect was Christ either being with him in Heaven or his return, there was no common accepted Cessationist view. There's enough in scripture to teach on proper use of the gifts or of how the Holy Spirit operates that we shouldn't have to resort to sweeping them under the first century rug.
What gifts do we see today? At the very least you would think evangelist would be needed. Then teachers. However teachers usually teach theology that divides the body rather than uniting it. Tradition is divisive. Paul actually warns against teachers, other than preaching the Word, and says they will lead people astray. 2 Timothy 4:3Hello W2L.
Thanks for the reply.
The ministry of the evangelist is mentioned below.
Ephesians 4:11
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers.
If the ministry of the apostle is finished, which according to Paul seems to be the case.
We still have the other ministries to contend with, obviously teaching, pastoral, and evangelism ministries are still in effect. Without these ministries the church would not exist.
So obviously, not all of the ministries of the Holy Spirit have passed.
The ministries and the gifts of the Holy Spirit are both given for the very same purpose.
1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
If knowledge has passed, then cessationism is true.
Mark 16:16-18
Its quite clear, these signs shall follow those who believe.
Although this passage is obscure, it must still have a correct interpretation. Paul at the time of his writing said those 3 spiritual gifts would cease when 'the perfect' or 'completeness' comes (depending on your bible version). There are a number of suggested interpretations of what that is, but the two main two options are that 'completeness' is either the 2nd coming of Christ or the completion and distribution of the canon and subsequent maturing of the church. Exegetically the latter makes more sense (Christ is not mentioned in this passage), it is supported by other scripture (eg Eph 2:20), and is also confirmed by history.
it doesn't mention this mysterious time as well but it doesn't stop you from saying it does. Of course cessationist who use this passage ignore the context which starts at the beginning of chapter 12. If one gift is removed they all are removed
There are loads of very clear references to the return of Christ but this obscure mysterious time is not mention and Eph 2:20 is about as cryptic of reference to this period as 1 Corinthians 13 is. I actually don't dogmatically say it is the return of Christ but rather an event analogous with either Christ's return or Heaven.
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers
Paul describes a time when people will follow teachers and turn away from the truth. The bible warns against false teachers.this described all offices of the church, some may be controversial but pastors and teachers? have they too ceased? have we reached this "measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ?"
Hello W2L.What gifts do we see today? At the very least you would think evangelist would be needed. Then teachers. However teachers usually teach theology that divides the body rather than uniting it. Tradition is divisive. Paul actually warns against teachers, other than preaching the Word, and says they will lead people astray. 2 Timothy 4:3
Hello W2L.
Two categories, ministries and gifts.
Evangelism is a ministry of the Holy Spirit, but knowledge is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
If knowledge has passed, then cessationism is true.
If the gift of knowledge has not passed, then cessationism is a heresy.
Paul describes a time when people will follow teachers and turn away from the truth. The bible warns against false teachers.
To answer your question
Ephesians 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—
1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
That scripture is often taken out of context. Look at it again. What do they believe in? Signs and miracles? Nope
John 20:9 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
I dont quite understandI recognize the similarity however Ephesians 4 is quite specific where 1 Corinthians 13 is not. If Paul intended to be this specific he could have done so with a masculine adjective "perfect" and an implied noun (man) instead he uses the word as a substantive and abstractly. in Ephesians it's the same word for perfect/mature but it's an adjective directly modifying a noun that is known and it's gender agrees with this noun. They may be similar but Paul goes out of his way to separate them when he doesn't need to.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?