Cessationist and Sola Scriptura don't mix

swordsman1

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My understanding and belief isn't The Completeness, or The Perfect, but Mature.

I previously posted this, but I re-post it now so that my position may be made clear.

Mar 16:15-18
15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


I find it interesting, the Believers are the ones spoken of, therefore it wasn't only the Apostles with the Gifts, they were for the Body of Christ.

Rom 12:4-6
4) For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5) So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6) Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Now about being Mature.

Eph 4:11-13
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the Perfecting (MATURING) of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a Perfect (MATURE) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

Here is my theory, how about the Body of Christ being,

"When That which is (MATURE) is Come"

1Co. 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When the Body of Christ has been Perfected (Become Matured), there will be no more need, for the Gifts of the Spirit....Just something else to consider.

I have used the word Perfect, only because that is Scripture, and holding to Sola Scriptura to validate what Scripture says and shows us, but I fully believe the word should be understood to mean (MATURE, MATURED,).

As that being the Maturity of the Body with Jesus being the Head.

It is my belief, the Body of Christ has not been Matured, I do not see a Mature Church of Christ, there is absolutely nothing which would provoke the Jews to Jealousy.

The word teleios also meaning 'maturity' is one that many cessationist theologians recognize as well as the 'completeness' aspect of the word. The argument being that the completion of the canon also results in the maturity of the church. A Church with the NT canon is certainly vastly more mature than one without it. Maturity is certainly in view in the analogy of a child becoming an adult in v11. This is probably why Paul chose the word teleios as it carries both meanings and so describes both actions. However maturity is a gradual process, so it would hardly a good word to describe the immediate change that occurs at the return of Christ. It fits more with the maturing of the Church over a number of decades as the canon is distributed, as the child-adult analogy would illustrate. Eph 4:12 certainly sees maturity as something achievable in this life.
 
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W2L

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If there truly has been a Cessation of the Gifts, as everyone claims, shouldn't there have been a beginning of something else?

Where and what is/was it?
When i asked where were all the healers and prophets, you claimed i was complaining.It seems you are doing some "complaining" yourself
 
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Major1

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My understanding and belief isn't The Completeness, or The Perfect, but Mature.

I previously posted this, but I re-post it now so that my position may be made clear.

Mar 16:15-18
15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


I find it interesting, the Believers are the ones spoken of, therefore it wasn't only the Apostles with the Gifts, they were for the Body of Christ.

Rom 12:4-6
4) For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5) So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6) Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Now about being Mature.

Eph 4:11-13
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the Perfecting (MATURING) of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a Perfect (MATURE) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

Here is my theory, how about the Body of Christ being,

"When That which is (MATURE) is Come"

1Co. 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When the Body of Christ has been Perfected (Become Matured), there will be no more need, for the Gifts of the Spirit....Just something else to consider.

I have used the word Perfect, only because that is Scripture, and holding to Sola Scriptura to validate what Scripture says and shows us, but I fully believe the word should be understood to mean (MATURE, MATURED,).

As that being the Maturity of the Body with Jesus being the Head.

It is my belief, the Body of Christ has not been Matured, I do not see a Mature Church of Christ, there is absolutely nothing which would provoke the Jews to Jealousy.

What YOU understand is not the point my brother. We can understand all kinds of things but if our understanding is flawed by pre-conceived teacheing that is wrong or denomination bias, then our understanding will be flawed.

What YOU understand and want to be is NOT what the actual Greek grammer will allow.

Please, do the study for yourself and do not rely on me. IF you will look closer look at the Greek word TELEIOS found in 1 Cor. 13:10 shows us why. To interpret TELEIOS, "perfect", to mean Jesus Christ or Heaven is inconsistent with both the context and with the usage in the rest of the New Testament.

In the Greek language, when describing things instead of people, the gender will be neuter or, in one instance, feminine gender. Most of the time, the adjective has a named subject that it modifies. But in the 1 Corinthians 13 passage, only the context can determine because the adjective stands alone: "the perfect." So the meaning of the adjective is determined by the context and the context is THE SIGN GIFTS.
Please read the 12, 13 and 1th chapter and it is without question all about GIFTS.

Therefore, it is my understanding that the "perfect" of 1 Cor. 13 is the completed word of God.

Now, just stop and think for moment. Can you show any verifiable actions or evidence that the gifts continued. Now remember, Paul is saying that the gifts will cease.
YOU are saying that they have not. Now my dear brother, WHY are YOU right and Paul is wrong?

Now again, stop and think. If the gifts in question were not going to cease until Jesus' returned, would he even need to say that? Also, there is no one I know who is speaking in tongues or healing or raising the dead as occurred in the New Testament.
I know that people are claiming otherwise, but where is the proof? What Jesus and the Apostles did was undeniable proof of their claims. No such thing exist today.

Most people recognize that the miracles of the Bible like raising the dead, walking on water, feeding thousands with a few loaves, and miraculously speaking in a foreign tongue don't happen today. IF they did where is the proof. There are cameras and phones and TV and Radio everywhere so where is the proof??????

The absence of miracles today (note I did not say that God is not working providentially, answering prayers, etc) makes us doubt that Paul was speaking of supernatural gifts continuing until Jesus returns.
 
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JIMINZ

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What YOU understand is not the point my brother. We can understand all kinds of things but if our understanding is flawed by pre-conceived teacheing that is wrong or denomination bias, then our understanding will be flawed.

What YOU understand and want to be is NOT what the actual Greek grammer will allow.

Please, do the study for yourself and do not rely on me. IF you will look closer look at the Greek word TELEIOS found in 1 Cor. 13:10 shows us why. To interpret TELEIOS, "perfect", to mean Jesus Christ or Heaven is inconsistent with both the context and with the usage in the rest of the New Testament.

In the Greek language, when describing things instead of people, the gender will be neuter or, in one instance, feminine gender. Most of the time, the adjective has a named subject that it modifies. But in the 1 Corinthians 13 passage, only the context can determine because the adjective stands alone: "the perfect." So the meaning of the adjective is determined by the context and the context is THE SIGN GIFTS.
Please read the 12, 13 and 1th chapter and it is without question all about GIFTS.

Therefore, it is my understanding that the "perfect" of 1 Cor. 13 is the completed word of God.

Now, just stop and think for moment. Can you show any verifiable actions or evidence that the gifts continued. Now remember, Paul is saying that the gifts will cease.
YOU are saying that they have not. Now my dear brother, WHY are YOU right and Paul is wrong?

Now again, stop and think. If the gifts in question were not going to cease until Jesus' returned, would he even need to say that? Also, there is no one I know who is speaking in tongues or healing or raising the dead as occurred in the New Testament.
I know that people are claiming otherwise, but where is the proof? What Jesus and the Apostles did was undeniable proof of their claims. No such thing exist today.

Most people recognize that the miracles of the Bible like raising the dead, walking on water, feeding thousands with a few loaves, and miraculously speaking in a foreign tongue don't happen today. IF they did where is the proof. There are cameras and phones and TV and Radio everywhere so where is the proof??????

The absence of miracles today (note I did not say that God is not working providentially, answering prayers, etc) makes us doubt that Paul was speaking of supernatural gifts continuing until Jesus returns.
.
Ok, that's your understanding, be happy.
 
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RDKirk

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BOOM! And there is the key to understanding!

Any logical thinking person who believes that any man or woman had the gift of physical healing, will think that the person would be going from hospital to hospital and emptying every single one of them.

But where are the "healings" taking place. In a church????
Is that the only place the Holy Spirit can work in a MAN to heal a child of cancer????????

Uselly the healings take place in a stadium or an area that hold several thousand people.
WHY is that instead of a hospital????

It means a larger collection plate offering.

Yes it is just that simple my friends. Follow the money and you will always find the reason for anything.

Nobody healed either Timothy or Epaphroditus.

Paul wrote that the Galatians were enjoying miracles even while he was infirm with an eye ailment in their presence.
 
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Erik Nelson

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it would be hard to argue that after the 2nd coming gifts of healing would be needed. It is easy to see that after the 2nd coming the "perfect has come" .... 'for now we see in a glass darkly"... is a reference to life BEFORE the 2nd coming.

1 John 3: " 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. "

1 Cor 13 :12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face.


No reference at all in 1 Cor 13 to "as soon as the Apostle John writes his last inspired letter"

I cannot now read this entire thread.

But I think I agree with your argument. "Love never ends", i.e. it never passes away. "Partials" pass away. But not "the Perfect". Which therefore is "Love". Which is the Golden Rule defining Christians and the Church as the followers of Christ (John 13:35).

So it seems to be an oblique reference to the Second Coming and the ensuing Millennium? Charismatic Gifts empowered the early Church & Apostolic Age... but once the mature Church is victorious & emplaced in the Millennium, the gifts subside ?
 
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Major1

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I cannot now read this entire thread.

But I think I agree with your argument. "Love never ends", i.e. it never passes away. "Partials" pass away. But not "the Perfect". Which therefore is "Love". Which is the Golden Rule defining Christians and the Church as the followers of Christ (John 13:35).

So it seems to be an oblique reference to the Second Coming and the ensuing Millennium? Charismatic Gifts empowered the early Church & Apostolic Age... but once the mature Church is victorious & emplaced in the Millennium, the gifts subside ?

I guess that you simply dismiss the Greek Grammar which does not allow your thinking to be valid.

That is fine with me. But I would like to ask you and any others who believe that the church is empowered with the sign gifts........why is there NO documentation of ONE SINGLE person being raised from the dead? Just ONE!

Mark 16:14 says.......
"Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen."

Just remove that from the Bible and make believe that YOU were there as one of the ELEVEN Apostels standing in front of Jesus.

Hebrews 2:1-4...............
"Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?"

Remove those verses of Scripture as well because YOU were there and HEARD Jesus talk to the ELEVEN in Mark 16.

Now completely ignore that Mark 16:9-20 is not found in the ancient manuscripts and any doctrine based on verses 9-10 should be carefully considered and verification of those verses need to be done.

OOOOps, there is the problem. There are NO others Scriptures in the Bible that confirm Mark 16:9-20. Mark is the ONLY writer to make those comments.

Now even if that is ignored......then Mark 16:17-20 are given by Jesus to the ELEVEN as a PACKAGE deal. They had ALL of the sign gifts and THEY performed ALL of the sign gifts not just one or two that they wanted to do.

Mark 16:17-18........
" And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Therefore, if you are saying that YOU can speak in tongues because YOU have the sign gifts then YOU must also be able to RAISE THE DEAD, SURVIVE POISION THAT YOU DRINK, BE ABLE TO HEAL, AND SURVIVE SNAKE VERNOM.

So then this is really very easy. YOU need to produce the evidence of YOU raising some one from the dead!

Instead of all these people saying I can do this, and I can do that, I speak in tongues and I heal the sick...........PROVE IT!

Show everyone the evidence of YOU raising a Dead person back to life just as did Jesus and Paul, or YOU walking on water or drinking bleach and I will be your biggest supporter.
 
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Major1

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Nobody healed either Timothy or Epaphroditus.

Paul wrote that the Galatians were enjoying miracles even while he was infirm with an eye ailment in their presence.

Correct.

Those that argue for the gift of healing will also say that it is all due to OUR faith. That is their answer when someone is not healed.

"You see, it is YOUR fault you are not healed. You did not have enough faith to be healed".

When ever you see that said, you can be sure that the person saying that has very limited Bible understanding.

Luke 6:19............
“And the whole multitude sought to touch Him, for power went out from Him and healed them all.”

Luke 9:11...........
“But when the multitudes knew it, they followed Him; and He received them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who had need of healing.”

Yet when we look carefully Jesus healed as many people that had no faith, than did. Sometimes he required faith, other times he did not. They were healed by His grace and mercy because of His love and most importantly to show the people who He is.

Matt 14:14 ...........
“And when Jesus went out He saw a great multitude; and He was moved with compassion for them, and healed their sick.”
 
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Major1

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Ok, that's your understanding, be happy.

I am, thank you and you as well.

You seem to want to withdraw and I can not blame you for that.

I wonder however before you do so if you would find a video of someone walking on water or raising the dead so as to support your contention of having the sign gifts.

That is all it will take for the whole world to give you proper consideration for your claim.
 
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JIMINZ

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I am, thank you and you as well.

You seem to want to withdraw and I can not blame you for that.

I wonder however before you do so if you would find a video of someone walking on water or raising the dead so as to support your contention of having the sign gifts.

That is all it will take for the whole world to give you proper consideration for your claim.
.
Yeah I know, that is all the Pharissee wanted also.
 
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Major1

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Yeah I know, that is all the Pharissee wanted also.

Trying to defer the discussion by calling me a Pharisee is very non-Christian of you, don't you think?

Is that what you do when anyone disagrees with your opinions????

Is that what Jesus told you to do????

Why not just do what you say you believe you can do and end all divisiveness.

Raise a dead person from the grave!!!
Walk on water!!!

You have a camera, do it, record it and I will be the 1st to honor you.
 
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BobRyan

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I cannot now read this entire thread.

But I think I agree with your argument. "Love never ends", i.e. it never passes away. "Partials" pass away. But not "the Perfect". Which therefore is "Love". Which is the Golden Rule defining Christians and the Church as the followers of Christ (John 13:35).

So it seems to be an oblique reference to the Second Coming and the ensuing Millennium? Charismatic Gifts empowered the early Church & Apostolic Age... but once the mature Church is victorious & emplaced in the Millennium, the gifts subside ?

Yes - the 2nd coming would end it since then we see "face to face" and the "mature man" would be at all the fullness of the stature of Christ as intended for saints - when we are all in sinless glorified bodies "we shall be like Him.. for we shall see Him as He is" 1 John 3 at the second coming
 
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Erik Nelson

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Yes - the 2nd coming would end it since then we see "face to face" and the "mature man" would be at all the fullness of the stature of Christ as intended for saints - when we are all in sinless glorified bodies "we shall be like Him.. for we shall see Him as He is" 1 John 3 at the second coming
thanks, glad we can agree to that much.

To clarify, I personally favor a Historicist interpretation, identifying the 1000 year long Byzantine empire as the Millennium, and Christian emperor Constantine as the physical manifestation of the prophesied Second Coming event.

Accordingly, I think that the Charismatic gifts empowered the early Apostolic Church, only to subside in the 5th century AD after Christianity was legalized and victorious in the 4th century AD. Writers like Chrysostom and Augustine did note the cessation of gifts in their days, and the cessation corresponds to the onset of severe Religious disputes leading to Schisms, as between western Christendom and the OOC and Church of the East, co-occurring in the 5th century AD.

So, I'm not claiming the present existence of extreme Charismatic sign gifts, any more than Chrysostom and Augustine already observed their subsidence in the 5th century AD.
 
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sdowney717

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Hello swordsman.

I am simply quoting from the passage below.

1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

It just says, 'knowledge'.
I agree with you klute. And consider any and all tongues have an understanding as a language even though a speaker or hearer may not understand what is being spoken.
In that tongues will cease, well people still talk a language that not everyone who hears understands, but when tongues cease means all will understand what's spoken. The effects of the tower of babel will be undone. We will have a perfect understanding regardless of the speaker. Such will happen when we see Christ face to face. In heaven we will all understand each other's words. I am just exposing another aspect, something people miss. God came down and confused the languages at babel. In Christ this is reversed. The tongues of men and angels will cease. No more unknown tongues. No more not understanding.
 
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BobRyan

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thanks, glad we can agree to that much.

To clarify, I personally favor a Historicist interpretation, identifying the 1000 year long Byzantine empire as the Millennium, and Christian emperor Constantine as the physical manifestation of the prophesied Second Coming event.

Historicist or preterist?

I accept the Historicist interepretation.

from - Historicism (Christianity) - Wikipedia

The historicist view on the prophecy of seventy weeks, in Daniel 9, stretches from 457 BCE to 34 CE, and that the final "week" of the prophecy refers to the events of Jesus Christ's ministry. This was the view taught by Martin Luther and John Calvin This interpretation of Daniel

Accordingly, I think that the Charismatic gifts empowered the early Apostolic Church, only to subside in the 5th century AD after Christianity was legalized and victorious in the 4th century AD. Writers like Chrysostom and Augustine did note the cessation of gifts in their days, and the cessation corresponds to the onset of severe Religious disputes leading to Schisms, as between western Christendom and the OOC and Church of the East, co-occurring in the 5th century AD.

The symptom is a diminished amount of the "greater gifts" mentioned in 1 Cor 12 - just as there were no inspired prophetic writing in the NT after Malachi's time -- until John the baptizer. But that is very different from saying that "God said all prophetic gifts have forever ceased" because of that time.

So, I'm not claiming the present existence of extreme Charismatic sign gifts,

The "present extremes" are fakes in my POV. They would not have been "valid" even 2000 years ago.
 
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Major1

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thanks, glad we can agree to that much.

To clarify, I personally favor a Historicist interpretation, identifying the 1000 year long Byzantine empire as the Millennium, and Christian emperor Constantine as the physical manifestation of the prophesied Second Coming event.

Accordingly, I think that the Charismatic gifts empowered the early Apostolic Church, only to subside in the 5th century AD after Christianity was legalized and victorious in the 4th century AD. Writers like Chrysostom and Augustine did note the cessation of gifts in their days, and the cessation corresponds to the onset of severe Religious disputes leading to Schisms, as between western Christendom and the OOC and Church of the East, co-occurring in the 5th century AD.

So, I'm not claiming the present existence of extreme Charismatic sign gifts, any more than Chrysostom and Augustine already observed their subsidence in the 5th century AD.

Then you are claiming a "Preterist" position.
 
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Major1

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Historicist or preterist?

I accept the Historicist interepretation.

from - Historicism (Christianity) - Wikipedia

The historicist view on the prophecy of seventy weeks, in Daniel 9, stretches from 457 BCE to 34 CE, and that the final "week" of the prophecy refers to the events of Jesus Christ's ministry. This was the view taught by Martin Luther and John Calvin This interpretation of Daniel



The symptom is a diminished amount of the "greater gifts" mentioned in 1 Cor 12 - just as there were no inspired prophetic writing in the NT after Malachi's time -- until John the baptizer. But that is very different from saying that "God said all prophetic gifts have forever ceased" because of that time.



The "present extremes" are fakes in my POV. They would not have been "valid" even 2000 years ago.

It seems to me that we are very similar in theology.

The 7th "Week" of Daniel is yet to be lived and IMO the "manifestations" seen today such as tongues and healings and a word of knowledge are nothing more than those who want to experience those things do so because they can FAKE them.

They can not ingest poison and live so they do not do it.
They can not raise the dead so they do not do it.

But tongues can be faked as well as healings and words of knowledge so they do them.
 
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BobRyan

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I think I agree with you on this

It seems to me that we are very similar in theology...

IMO the "manifestations" seen today such as tongues and healings and a word of knowledge are nothing more than those who want to experience those things do so because they can FAKE them.

They can not ingest poison and live so they do not do it.
They can not raise the dead so they do not do it.

But tongues can be faked as well as healings and words of knowledge so they do them.

Though I would love to see them 'add an arm' to someone born without one or "add an eye" to one born without one. Sadly the reality is that most of what passes as supernatural spiritual gifts today is mere fake.

==============================================

In my post I said --


I accept the Historicist interepretation.

from - Historicism (Christianity) - Wikipedia

The historicist view on the prophecy of seventy weeks, in Daniel 9, stretches from 457 BC to 34 AD, and that the final "week" (the 70th week) of the prophecy refers to the events of Jesus Christ's ministry. This was the view taught by Martin Luther and John Calvin This interpretation of Daniel


and you responded
It seems to me that we are very similar in theology.
The 7th "Week" of Daniel is yet to be lived

I think you mean the "70th week" - but all Bible timeline prophecies are contiguous so then "70 weeks" in Daniel 9 is the day-for-year timeline and it has to be contiguous just as the Dan 9:1-9 discussion of Jeremiah's 70 year timeline has to have a timeline that is contiguous.

So then no inserting gaps of undefined amounts of time into those timelines because then they would not hold up as a 70 year timeline or a 70 week (490 year) timeline.
 
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Historicist or preterist?

I accept the Historicist interepretation.

from - Historicism (Christianity) - Wikipedia

The historicist view on the prophecy of seventy weeks, in Daniel 9, stretches from 457 BCE to 34 CE, and that the final "week" of the prophecy refers to the events of Jesus Christ's ministry. This was the view taught by Martin Luther and John Calvin This interpretation of Daniel



The symptom is a diminished amount of the "greater gifts" mentioned in 1 Cor 12 - just as there were no inspired prophetic writing in the NT after Malachi's time -- until John the baptizer. But that is very different from saying that "God said all prophetic gifts have forever ceased" because of that time.



The "present extremes" are fakes in my POV. They would not have been "valid" even 2000 years ago.
Malachi was Old Testament not New Testament. John the Baptist was New Testament
 
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Major1

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I think I agree with you on this



Though I would love to see them 'add an arm' to someone born without one or "add an eye" to one born without one. Sadly the reality is that most of what passes as supernatural spiritual gifts today is mere fake.

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In my post I said --


I accept the Historicist interepretation.

from - Historicism (Christianity) - Wikipedia

The historicist view on the prophecy of seventy weeks, in Daniel 9, stretches from 457 BC to 34 AD, and that the final "week" (the 70th week) of the prophecy refers to the events of Jesus Christ's ministry. This was the view taught by Martin Luther and John Calvin This interpretation of Daniel


and you responded


I think you mean the "70th week" - but all Bible timeline prophecies are contiguous so then "70 weeks" in Daniel 9 is the day-for-year timeline and it has to be contiguous just as the Dan 9:1-9 discussion of Jeremiah's 70 year timeline has to have a timeline that it contiguous. No inserting gaps of undefined amounts of time into those timelines because then they would not hold up as a 70 year timeline or a 70 week (490 year) timeline.

Yes I did. My typing never was real good, but it is getting worse. I tend to go faster than my fingers can work hence some stupid comes out. You are correct....70TH week is what I should have said.
 
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