Cessationist and Sola Scriptura don't mix

[ToBeLoved]

Do you actually think that Jesus Christ would be called “that which is perfect?” It is quite clear to me that this phrase is referring to an inanimate object, not a person. The phrase “that which is perfect is come” of 1 Corinthians 10:13 does not IMHO refer to Jesus Christ or His return.

I will also add that when talking about Christ, using other names, it is usually capitalized.

 

[Major1]

I will also add that when talking about Christ, using other names, it is usually capitalized.

That is an excellent observation!!!!
After All this time and I have never noticed that. Bless you sister!!!!!!

 

[redleghunter]

The bottom line to me is that there are no spiritual gifts operating today because we have the completed 66-book Holy Bible. If we are to people of faith, we must throw away our doctrinally-deficient hymns, we must discard our faulty theological systems, and we must break away from our pre-conceived ideas. We are to embrace the simple truths of the Bible. In the end, God’s Word—not theological systems, not Bible commentaries, not preachers or teachers—alone will matter.

I agree with this mostly. Where I differ is God will work His Power where He wills. We should be ready for such a situation.

For example, some conservative Evangelicals are either witnessing or getting reports from the Middle East of visions and miracles corresponding with the preaching of the Gospel. Most are meeting underground in home churches much like the church started there in the 1st Century. It is not only an infant church there but a persecuted church. In such we should be cautiously optimistic.

We should also expect we have no excuse in the West for learning God's Truth. As you mentioned we already have the Scriptures therefore we have no excuse.

One way we can help the fledgling persecuted churches is support ministries helping them and getting the Written Word of God in their hands in their language.

God Bless brother.

 

[DamianWarS]

The root of the problem has always been the correct understanding of the word "PERFECT" in verse 10.

Over the years I have read material from each side of the problem. Some who want to "Continue" the gifts always say that the Perfect is the Coming of Jesus, some say that it is the 2nd Coming of Jesus. Some will insist that it is the Church. Some say that it is when we all get to heaven.

The ones who are "Ceasesationist" almost universally say that the Perfect is the completed and canonized Bible.

Without any doubt the Greek word used in verse 10 is the word "TELEIOS".
That Greek word means in the NASB Lexicon......
NASB © Greek Transliteration Strong's Definition Origin/

"the perfect τέλειον teleion #5046 having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect/mature and sense it is in the "neuter" of Greek Grammar, neuter = completeness -- of full age.

1). The Perfect is Jesus 1st Advent.
Personally, I do not know how that definition would fit the God-Man Jesus. Since He was always with God and WAS God I for one am not able to comprehend how we can say that HE is the Perfect. Of course He is perfect but He did not become complete and neither did He mature and He certainly can never reach an END. He was, Is and always will be the God Man so I can not see how He could be the Perfect that Paul had in mind.

2). The 2nd Coming of Christ.
Then for the 2nd Coming of Christ. That is an "Event" and not anything that would mature or even be complete. Again, I can not see that being the Perfect in 1 Corth.
IMHO and I am nothing but an old country boy and nothing more, for me then to say “that which is perfect is come” is a person, is to support strange and awkward grammar that I do not see in the Greek language here.

Do you actually think that Jesus Christ would be called “that which is perfect?” It is quite clear to me that this phrase is referring to an inanimate object, not a person. The phrase “that which is perfect is come” of 1 Corinthians 10:13 does not IMHO refer to Jesus Christ or His return.

3). The Church.
Of all the definitions, this one would be the least acceptable to me. The church is made up of SINNERS.
Saved sinners, yes but still sinners as a whole and very far from perfect.

4). Christians going to Heaven.
Maybe! But when we study the verse and the phrase in question we see that this verse says nothing about us going anywhere, but it does teach that something is coming to us. Something coming to us and us going somewhere are two completely different situations.

5). The canonized Bible.
“When that which is perfect is come” therefore seems to be a reference to when partial knowledge and partial prophesying are done away.

Verses 9 and 10 again:...........
“[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
[10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

IF we allow the Bible to interpret the Bible it seems to me that what we see it says is talking about the completion of the Bible’s canon of books, which was settled in God’s mind in the first century A.D. Once Paul wrote the epistle of 2 Timothy, the Bible was complete, and there was no more revelation needed from God (cf. Colossians 1:25 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Now I know that those who WANT to experience the sign gifts will not accept this view but to me this is the only view that the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10 allows. For God to have us grow up spiritually is something He wants now, not when we go to heaven (view #1) or when Jesus comes back (view #2): God wants mature Christians now (view #5).

By the way, the word “perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is not sinless perfection, but the completion of God’s revelation (the Holy Bible) and the spiritual maturity it brings to those who read and believe it. Notice some examples of how the Scriptures use the term “perfect” in that sense:

• Philippians 3:15: “Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.”
• Colossians 1:28: “Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:”
• Colossians 4:12: “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.”
• 2 Timothy 3:16-17: “[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
• Hebrews 5:14: “But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”

The bottom line to me is that there are no spiritual gifts operating today because we have the completed 66-book Holy Bible. If we are to people of faith, we must throw away our doctrinally-deficient hymns, we must discard our faulty theological systems, and we must break away from our pre-conceived ideas. We are to embrace the simple truths of the Bible. In the end, God’s Word—not theological systems, not Bible commentaries, not preachers or teachers—alone will matter.

there are different views taken on this, one which starts from the point of cessation and works backwards and the other that starts from the point of the context in question "the perfect". Arguably both are bias but I would suggest cessationist have a greater bias as they start from a perspective that these gifts have already ceased so interpret scripture based on that understanding.

If we are to understand the scripture we should try and cast off our bias and look at the context to determine what Paul was saying and what the Corinthians would have understood. "the perfect" is when ceasing happens but what is the context? "when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away" What is the "partial" in the text? I would suggest the partial is the complete manifold of the gifts of the HS as all the gifts reflect an inability by the believer and dependant upon the gifts and so all reflect that which is partial. These gifts do not reflect natural abilities but instead endowment by the Holy Spirit and the characteristics of the gifts are befitting their source. Look at Simon the magian reaction in Acts 8, the text doesn't tell us the manifested power of the Holy Spirit but what we know is that Simon recognized it as something beyond mere human ability and wanted it for himself. So the gifts have an essence greater than our human limits.

If the partial is understood in this context representing the complete manifold of the gifts then the coming of "the perfect" would represent a regeneration of that which is partial to remove these partialities so that there they are no longer dependant for these gifts. It is essentially us that is "in-part" and the gifts that are used to empower us where we cannot do it ourselves (that which is partial).

All your examples of teleios, which is the greek word in question, point to a qualitative description of people not things. Which is interesting since you suggest the context is better pointed at a inanimate than an animate. Now the word in context is a neuter nominative and it stands alonne without a head noun. In greek this turns it into an abstract noun which can theoretically point to anything that fits an abstract.

I do not disagree that the canon of the bible can fit into this context as it is an abstract enough concept that it "works" but what I disagree with is this is an unarticulated event in the bible and if we are going to point it to something we should let, as you say, allow the "Bible to interpret the Bible". To me this means the bible should be able to clearly articulate this event and with the completion of the canon it simply does not. These "gifts" certainly did not cease in the 1st century so we are not simply talking about the writing of these texts or the close of biblical revelation that the bible alludes to but rather a gathering of a council as late as the 5th century that canonized these texts. This interpreted cessation period was is already well established and observed in the 4th century and even earlier. So there is this conflict of the actual revelation finished in the 1st century (say about 80-90 AD for Revelation) then a few hundred years of a "dieing" out of the gifts until the canon was fully agreed upon which by the time it was these gifts no longer are in practice. This drawn out event just doesn't seem fitting to the text. the pass away language would be better if Paul had stuck to it but then he shifted to "cease" which is a far more abrupt ending and I just don't see it pointing to a 2-3 hundred year period of "ceasing"

I do not actually think "the perfect" is Christ himself or his return but instead an event analogous to the return of Christ. To me what would best describe this completeness/matureness/perfection where the believer is no longer dependent upon the gifts is in our resurrected bodies. Now I understand Paul himself in this letter to the Corinthians actually closes with talking about the resurrection and it one of best teachings of the subject in the bible and but he fails to use the language as 1 Cor 13 does. I don't have an answer for that only that ch 15 directly follows the context of ch 12-14 and may be expanding the the context in question. I am also not dogmatic about the perfect pointing to this as I understand scripture itself is not that clear however if I am going to point to something it should be an articulated event in scripture that fits the context. Heaven, second coming, Christ himself, resurrection of the dead... these are all somewhat similar in that it is essentially about a change in our current state for that which is impart to truly disappear. They are all events established in scripture and fit the context something that simply cannot be said on the same level for the canon theory.

 

[BobRyan]

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 says "Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away"

Cessationist use this passage to say that this is identifying the revelatory gifts and claim that "the perfect" has come and these gifts are no more. Essentially they say this "perfect" is the product of the 1st century such as the completion of the NT or the first wave spreading the Church. The problem with this interpretation is it's highly cryptic and is the only passage in the bible that would actually talk about this point of time. If we going to use Sola Scriptura methods should we not be a little more responsible with our interpretations? If Paul actually intended this to mean some mysterious time around the end of the first century you would think there would be something to confirm this?

The Cessationist view has only come out from a reaction to pentecostal movements that they were unwilling to accept so they started with what they wanted scripture to say then used then search of a spot where it could fit but is a very irresponsible way of interpreting. Reality is before the 19th century dominate interpretation was that the perfect was Christ either being with him in Heaven or his return, there was no common accepted Cessationist view. There's enough in scripture to teach on proper use of the gifts or of how the Holy Spirit operates that we shouldn't have to resort to sweeping them under the first century rug.

Nothing at all in 1 Cor 13 says "as soon as John writes his last letter then all Spiritual gifts end".

Extreme inference 'could' be used to bend-wrench some part of 1Cor 13 to say such things not at all in the text.. .but not serious Bible study.

 

[BobRyan]

The bottom line to me is that there are no spiritual gifts operating today because we have the completed 66-book Holy Bible.

Perfectly stated "the bottom line to you" - everyone has free will and can select their own preferences as their guide if they wish.

Here is what the actual Bible says -

Ephesians 4
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—

It was still "ongoing" in Paul's day no matter that he is inspired by God to write.

Paul was a Christian yet Paul knew that the church had not reached "a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;"

This is irrefutable.

And those gifts were designed to enable the church to resist heresies - of which there have been myriads in all the centuries since Paul wrote Ephesians 4.

This too - is irrefutable.

 

[swordsman1]

If we are to understand the scripture we should try and cast off our bias and look at the context to determine what Paul was saying and what the Corinthians would have understood. "the perfect" is when ceasing happens but what is the context? "when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away" What is the "partial" in the text? I would suggest the partial is the complete manifold of the gifts of the HS as all the gifts reflect an inability by the believer and dependant upon the gifts and so all reflect that which is partial. These gifts do not reflect natural abilities but instead endowment by the Holy Spirit and the characteristics of the gifts are befitting their source. Look at Simon the magian reaction in Acts 8, the text doesn't tell us the manifested power of the Holy Spirit but what we know is that Simon recognized it as something beyond mere human ability and wanted it for himself. So the gifts have an essence greater than our human limits.

The key verse is:

1 Cor 13:9-10 (NIV) “For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.”​

This verse is saying when ‘completeness’ (or ‘the perfect’) comes the gifts of prophecy and and knowledge would disappear. There is no indication whatsoever in the passage that these 2 gifts are mere example gifts that are representative of all spiritual gifts which will also disappear at the same time.

The question then is what is ‘completeness’ (or ‘the perfect’) and when will it occur. While some bible version translate the Greek word teleios as “the perfect”, others such as the NIV translate it as “completeness”, both of them being legitimate translations of the word. In my view ‘completeness’ is the better translation for the following reasons:

• It is clear ‘ek merous’ (in part) and ‘teleios’ (completeness or the perfect) are in antithesis with each other. If it is translated as ‘the perfect’ you are awkwardly pitting a quantitative concept (in part) against a qualitative concept (perfect). If it is translated ‘completeness’ there is no such tension.
• The equivalent antithesis in v12 (‘in part’ and ‘fully’) are both quantitative.
• Paul's other use of the teleios in his epistles overwhelmingly relate to completing/developing/maturing rather than perfecting (1 Cor 2:6, 1 Cor 14:20, Phil 3:15, Eph 4:13, Col 1:28, Col 4:12, Heb 5:14), making it more likely that the same applies here.
• Throughout scripture and Greek literature when teleios is used in proximity to nēpiois (child), as in v14, it invariably means growing into an adult. See 1 Cor 14:20, Eph. 4:13-14, Heb. 5:13-4

“Completeness” is the antithesis of “in part”, so it is obvious these two quantitative expressions are related. Whatever ‘in part’ is referring to, almost certainly applies to ‘completeness’. That which is ‘in part’ is the practice of the gifts of prophecy and words of knowledge (v9), both of them being revelations from God. It follows therefore that ‘completeness’ would also involve revelation. “In part” refers to the fact that the revelation communicated by these gifts is partial or piecemeal. The corresponding “completeness”, as the counterpart to “in part” must refer to a full or complete revelation from God. This can only be the completed revelation God as preserved in the New Testament

At the time of Paul's writing the early church needed prophecy and words of knowledge to guide them in the faith in the absence of a New Testament. However when a church had a completed canon, it would no longer require the gift of prophecy to guide them. Thus, the completed canon would replace partial prophecies and words of knowledge.

The analogy of a child maturing into a man in v11 indicates that the process would not be an instantaneous one (as would happen at the 2nd coming) but rather something that occurs over a period of time, as the completed canon is distributed among the churches. This ties in perfectly with church history where the early church fathers (100-200AD) said tongues and prophecy were still in use, the middle fathers (200-300 AD) saying they are rare, and the late fathers (300-400AD) saying the gifts have ceased.

Verse 8 says tongues would also cease along with prophecy and words of knowledge. In v13 it says that faith hope and love would remain after these 3 gifts had ceased. The greatest is love because love never ceases (v8), but faith and hope will both cease at the 2nd coming when they become reality: Heb 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."; 2 Cor 5:6-7 "while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord - for we walk by faith, not by sight"; Rom 8:24 "but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?". So if faith and hope cease at the 2nd coming and outlast the 3 gifts then the 3 gifts must cease sometime before the 2nd coming.

This interpretation is corroborated elsewhere in scripture, notably in Eph 2:20 which says that apostles and prophets were only for the foundation of the church. Few people deny that apostles ceased at the end of the 1st century AD after founding the church. This verse undeniably says the same applies to prophets.

And of course history also confirms this interpretation. Tongues etc did indeed die out shortly after the apostolic age.

These "gifts" certainly did not cease in the 1st century so we are not simply talking about the writing of these texts or the close of biblical revelation that the bible alludes to but rather a gathering of a council as late as the 5th century that canonized these texts. This interpreted cessation period was is already well established and observed in the 4th century and even earlier. So there is this conflict of the actual revelation finished in the 1st century (say about 80-90 AD for Revelation) then a few hundred years of a "dieing" out of the gifts until the canon was fully agreed upon which by the time it was these gifts no longer are in practice. This drawn out event just doesn't seem fitting to the text. the pass away language would be better if Paul had stuck to it but then he shifted to "cease" which is a far more abrupt ending and I just don't see it pointing to a 2-3 hundred year period of "ceasing"

The completion of the canon has nothing to do with human councils in later centuries ratifying a set of books. The councils did not complete the canon. The canon was completed when the last legitimate book of the New Testament was written in the late 90's AD. The councils only met to officially decide which books were divinely inspired and which were not (mainly on the basis of their authorship).

I do not actually think "the perfect" is Christ himself or his return but instead an event analogous to the return of Christ. To me what would best describe this completeness/matureness/perfection where the believer is no longer dependent upon the gifts is in our resurrected bodies. Now I understand Paul himself in this letter to the Corinthians actually closes with talking about the resurrection and it one of best teachings of the subject in the bible and but he fails to use the language as 1 Cor 13 does. I don't have an answer for that only that ch 15 directly follows the context of ch 12-14 and may be expanding the the context in question. I am also not dogmatic about the perfect pointing to this as I understand scripture itself is not that clear however if I am going to point to something it should be an event scripture articulates that fits the context. Heaven, second coming, Christ himself, resurrection of the dead, the new heaven/new earth... these are all somewhat similar in that it is essentially about a change in our current state for that which is impart to truly disappear. They are all events established in scripture and fit the context something which cannot be said on the same level for the canon theory.

It is strange that you are complaining about a lack of evidence for 'completeness' being the completion of the canon, when your own theory (which no commentator agrees with) has even less evidence!

 

[BobRyan]

The key verse is:

1 Cor 13:9-10 (NIV) “For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.”​

This verse is saying when ‘completeness’ (or ‘the perfect’) comes the gifts of prophecy and and knowledge would disappear. There is no indication whatsoever in the passage that these 2 gifts are mere example gifts that are representative of all spiritual gifts which will also disappear at the same time.

it would be hard to argue that after the 2nd coming gifts of healing would be needed. It is easy to see that after the 2nd coming the "perfect has come" .... 'for now we see in a glass darkly"... is a reference to life BEFORE the 2nd coming.

1 John 3: " 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. "

1 Cor 13 :12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face.


No reference at all in 1 Cor 13 to "as soon as the Apostle John writes his last inspired letter"

 

[JIMINZ]

With everyone's theory's about (Completeness, or Perfect) being expressed.

This would mean the Cessation of the Gifts which were in part until the (Completeness or Perfect) should come.

My question then is, what now?

If everyone is correct about their Theory's, where do we stand now in this day and age, what should we be expecting at this point, with the Canon being Complete, has Jesus returned?

If there truly has been a Cessation of the Gifts, as everyone claims, shouldn't there have been a beginning of something else?

Where and what is/was it?

 

[swordsman1]

it would be hard to argue that after the 2nd coming gifts of healing would be needed. It is easy to see that after the 2nd coming the "perfect has come" .... 'for now we see in a glass darkly"... is a reference to life BEFORE the 2nd coming.

1 John 3: " 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. "

1 Cor 13 :12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face.


No reference at all in 1 Cor 13 to "as soon as the Apostle John writes his last inspired letter"

The interpretation that this passage is referring to the 2nd coming is fraught with difficulties:

• 'Face to face' is not referring to seeing Christ. There is no mention of Christ in this passage. 'Face to face' is referring to the analogy of a mirror. At the time of Paul's writing, when church had to rely on piecemeal prophecies for guidance in the faith in the absence of the NT, it was like seeing dimly in a poor mirror (mirrors were poor quality in those days). But when 'completeness' came, it would be like looking at someone 'face to face'. Prophecies would cease and we would have God's revelation to man presented in a far better way.

• If you assume 'perfect' is the correct translation of teleios, rather than 'completeness', then you are pitting a qualitative concept against a quantitative one ("in part") in the antithesis Paul presents.

• In other scriptures teleios is never used to describe the heaven, Christ's return, or anything eschatological. It is however used to describe scripture in James 1:25

• It doesn't fit with Paul's analogy of a child growing into man in v11. The 2nd coming will bring an instantaneous change, not a gradual one.

• If Paul was referring to the 2nd coming, then it wouldn't just be prophecy, words of knowledge, and tongues that will cease. All the spiritual gifts will cease. In the eternal state there will be no need for healers, pastors, teachers, evangelists, giving, faith, discernment of spirits, etc. Yet Paul makes no mention of those ceasing.

• In v13 it says that faith hope and love would remain after the 3 gifts had ceased. But faith and hope will both cease at the 2nd coming when they become reality (Heb 11:1, 2 Cor 5:6-7, Rom 8:24). So if faith and hope outlast the 3 gifts then the 3 gifts must cease sometime before the 2nd coming.

 

[Major1]

Nothing at all in 1 Cor 13 says "as soon as John writes his last letter then all Spiritual gifts end".

Extreme inference 'could' be used to bend-wrench some part of 1Cor 13 to say such things not at all in the text.. .but not serious Bible study.

That is a correct statement. There is nothing mentioned that says the Revelation will end all Spiritual gifts.

There are however some things said that indicate the Sign Gifts were only given to the apostles.
Logic and common sense would then tell us that since those gifts were only given to the apostles, they would no longer be in effect when they were all dead.

Mark 16:14.......
"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

There really can not be an argument on the 11 being the apostles who were given the Sign Gifts as the Bible itself interprets this fact for us in Hebrews 2:1-4.............

Hebrews 2:1-4.............
"Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"

Hebrews 2 is complimentary to Mark 16 and Matthew 28 in that "THEY' and "WE" are the same group of people........The Apostles.

 

[Major1]

With everyone's theory's about (Completeness, or Perfect) being expressed.

This would mean the Cessation of the Gifts which were in part until the (Completeness or Perfect) should come.

My question then is, what now?

If everyone is correct about their Theory's, where do we stand now in this day and age, what should we be expecting at this point, with the Canon being Complete, has Jesus returned?

If there truly has been a Cessation of the Gifts, as everyone claims, shouldn't there have been a beginning of something else?

Where and what is/was it?

YES My dear friend.......it is called the Age of Grace/Church Age. The Church as what Jesus began!!!!

Originaly, Jesus came to seek and save the lost Jews of Israel. He was as Jew. He was born to a Jewish woman in a Jewish city and worshipped in a Jewish synogogh.

Matthew 15:24.............
"He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Matthew 10:5–6..............
"These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

BUT the Jews rejected Him, THEIR Messiah and killed Him. It was then that God opened the door of salvation to the Gentiles.

Jesus did not forbid their preaching to all Gentiles; He did, however, narrow their focus to the areas which should be most receptive—those who knew the Law and were expecting the Messiah. Paul, in his missionary journeys, followed the same priority of preaching to the Jews first as recorded in Rom. 1:16.

Now, Today, the CHURCH of Jesus Christ is "grafted" in to the Jewish root who is in fact the Lord Jesus.

 

[Major1]

it would be hard to argue that after the 2nd coming gifts of healing would be needed. It is easy to see that after the 2nd coming the "perfect has come" .... 'for now we see in a glass darkly"... is a reference to life BEFORE the 2nd coming.

1 John 3: " 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. "

1 Cor 13 :12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face.


No reference at all in 1 Cor 13 to "as soon as the Apostle John writes his last inspired letter"

You are saying that AFTER the 2nd Coming of Christ there will be no sin or death hence I=that EVENT is the PERFECT as recorded in 1 Corth. 13.

That is simply not the case IMO and should not be used to validate "The Perfect".

AFTER the 2nd Coming, the Millennium rule will of course be glorious but not perfect.

Apparently, according the the Bible itself sickness will be less prevalent in the Millennium than in any previous dispensation, and physical difficulties will be healed as seen in Isa. 29:18; 33:24.

That tells us that life will be wonderful but not PERFECT. If it was perfect there would be no physical problems to be healed in the 1st place. I am sure that you will agree to that.

Then notice that even those who are lame will be healed and those who are dumb will be able to speak as recorded in Isa. 35:5-6. In general, longevity will characterize the human race, for a person who dies at the age of one hundred will be considered a child as seen in Isa. 65:20.

All of that demands that we understand "physical difficulties, lameness and death" means something far less than the word "PERFECT" indicates.

Then on top of that we see in Rev. 20:4 that when Satan is released from his chains, he deceived the world into rebellion and the world then attacks the city of God to try and destroy Jesus.....AGAIN.

Again, all of this does not require a PHD to grasp that after the 2nd Coming of Christ CAN NOT BE THE PERFECT that is spoken of in 1 Corinthians.

 

[Major1]

I agree with this mostly. Where I differ is God will work His Power where He wills. We should be ready for such a situation.

For example, some conservative Evangelicals are either witnessing or getting reports from the Middle East of visions and miracles corresponding with the preaching of the Gospel. Most are meeting underground in home churches much like the church started there in the 1st Century. It is not only an infant church there but a persecuted church. In such we should be cautiously optimistic.

We should also expect we have no excuse in the West for learning God's Truth. As you mentioned we already have the Scriptures therefore we have no excuse.

One way we can help the fledgling persecuted churches is support ministries helping them and getting the Written Word of God in their hands in their language.

God Bless brother.

No argument from me. I would only say that we should be reading and obeying the written Word of God and not following visions and dreams today.

Rom. 10:17 says that.........
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".

If a "vision" or a "dream" can be verified by the scriptures then I would agree. Other wise, the devil can and will and has caused confusion and hearsay by visions and dreams.
A few of those would be the Muslim religion, the Mormon religion and on and on where men were used by Satan to cause destruction, sin and death.

 

[Major1]

Perfectly stated "the bottom line to you" - everyone has free will and can select their own preferences as their guide if they wish.

Here is what the actual Bible says -

Ephesians 4
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—

It was still "ongoing" in Paul's day no matter that he is inspired by God to write.

Paul was a Christian yet Paul knew that the church had not reached "a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;"

This is irrefutable.

And those gifts were designed to enable the church to resist heresies - of which there have been myriads in all the centuries since Paul wrote Ephesians 4.

This too - is irrefutable.

IMO, the word "irrefutable" is a poor choice. That makes it appear that we are in a contest. I would prefer that this is an exercise of comments and thoughts of the Scriptures so that one or both or all could learn, and grow and come to their own choices along with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Now, of course the gifts were "ongoing" in Paul's day. He was an Apostles and was given the sign gifts as such. That is not in question in my thinking at all.

I am not refuting your comments on Ephesians 4:11-13, however I would like to point out that my understanding of those verses do not refer to the gifts the God had given to men, although it is clearly true that it is HE who has given those gifts.

It seems to me that what Paul is saying in those verses that you used is that Christ took certain men who were the apostles and gave them special sign gifts and HE then GAVE THOSE MEN TO THE CHURCH.

Look at the words for yourself in verse 12........
"For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ".

To me that is clearly saying that these gifted men are given TO THE CHURCH that it may be brought into full maturity. The word there "MATURITY" is not PERFECT but instead it is COMPLETE.

IF that is not the case my brother, then what is the purpose of the church??????
Isn't it to complete itself that it might grow up??????

Now then, an Apostle was a man who had SEEN the resurrected Christ.
He must also have been directly and personally commissioned by Christ.

That is why there are NO apostles today because no one can meet the Requirements of an Apostle today. That office by virtue of its very nature has long since disappeared from the church and as such there is no one today who has the Apostolic Sign Gifts given to the original 12.

 

[ToBeLoved]

1 Cor 12:11 "...All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."

Paul goes on to say in 1 Cor 14
v5 "...Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy..."
v18 "...I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you...."
v39 "...earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues."

there is a feeling in the text that Paul has a greater "fluency" in the gift of tongues than those he is writing to, although he discourages unfruitful or selfish practices of the gifts there still is a general encouragement to grow in the gifts, to seek them and not to "forbid" their use.

Everything is prefaced with "...as [the Spirit] wills" but the gifts of the Holy Spirit do seem to have a practiced ability according to how Paul describes them. Now the verses above are not to be taken out of context I merely post them to show insight into this thinking and I encourage anyone to read the context in its entirety rather than banking solely on a few verses.

Paul also says v19 "... I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue." so although Paul encourages the gifts he addresses abuse especially with tongues and encourages balance. He is careful not to disqualify these acts which presents a paradoxical focus of "as the Spirit wills" with the over zealous Corinthians' will. Paul's not afraid to call people out and be blunt so it's unclear why he seems more softer in his approach here. All of this developes a case of balance between the will of the Spirit and the will of the individual.

I don’t think anyone is saying the gifts were not active during Paul’s ministry.

I think the question is are they active today. And there is scripture that they have ceased.

 

[Major1]

I don’t think anyone is saying the gifts were not active during Paul’s ministry.

I think the question is are they active today. And there is scripture that they have ceased.

Correct and agreed.

 

[JIMINZ]

It is called the Age of Grace/Church Age. The Church as what Jesus began!!!!

.
What was it again you said was the Completeness, the Perfect?

Was it the Canon?.....And because the Canon is complete, we have no further need of the Gifts?

Now, Today, the CHURCH of Jesus Christ is "grafted" in to the Jewish root who is in fact the Lord Jesus.

.
Where is this Church of Jesus Christ you speak of, wasn't the Church grafted in, in the 2nd. Century until Now, Today, wasn't that the beginning of what is called, The Church Age?

And, the Scripture verifying your statements are?

 

[Major1]

.
What was it again you said was the Completeness, the Perfect?

Was it the Canon?.....And because the Canon is complete, we have no further need of the Gifts?


.
Where is this Church of Jesus Christ you speak of, wasn't the Church grafted in, in the 2nd. Century until Now, Today, wasn't that the beginning of what is called, The Church Age?

And, the Scripture verifying your statements are?

The Greek word of "Teleios" is the word seen in 1st Corth. 13:10 and it means......Complete/Mature.

If YOU will take the time and look that word up in the Strong's Lexicon you will see that it is written in the "neuter" as a male verb hence it can not in any way refer to a Person or and event.
As it is written in the text in questions, it can only refer to "Something" and not Someone/Jesus.

Yes, the church began at the Resurrection of Jesus and it was then that God turned from Israel to the Gentiles offering them eternal heaven which is the church age.

YOU can find all of these things in the Bible or you can search "The Church age" or the Dispensation of grace specifically Romans 11.

 

[JIMINZ]

The Greek word of "Teleios" is the word seen in 1st Corth. 13:10 and it means......Complete/Mature.

If YOU will take the time and look that word up in the Strong's Lexicon you will see that it is written in the "neuter" as a male verb hence it can not in any way refer to a Person or and event.
As it is written in the text in questions, it can only refer to "Something" and not Someone/Jesus.

Yes, the church began at the Resurrection of Jesus and it was then that God turned from Israel to the Gentiles offering them eternal heaven which is the church age.

YOU can find all of these things in the Bible or you can search "The Church age" or the Dispensation of grace specifically Romans 11.

.
My understanding and belief isn't The Completeness, or The Perfect, but Mature.

I previously posted this, but I re-post it now so that my position may be made clear.

Mar 16:15-18
15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I find it interesting, the Believers are the ones spoken of, therefore it wasn't only the Apostles with the Gifts, they were for the Body of Christ.

Rom 12:4-6
4) For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5) So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6) Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Now about being Mature.

Eph 4:11-13
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the Perfecting (MATURING) of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a Perfect (MATURE) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

Here is my theory, how about the Body of Christ being,
"When That which is (MATURE) is Come"

1Co. 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When the Body of Christ has been Perfected (Become Matured), there will be no more need, for the Gifts of the Spirit....Just something else to consider.

I have used the word Perfect, only because that is Scripture, and holding to Sola Scriptura to validate what Scripture says and shows us, but I fully believe the word should be understood to mean (MATURE, MATURED,).

As that being the Maturity of the Body with Jesus being the Head.

It is my belief, the Body of Christ has not been Matured, I do not see a Mature Church of Christ, there is absolutely nothing which would provoke the Jews to Jealousy.