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Featured Cessationist and Sola Scriptura don't mix

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    I'm not complaining about your posts, I'm only pointing out, complaining is all you have been doing, you point out all of the inadequacy's, all of the suffering.

    Then you are not willing to find a solution.

    Well I will keep Seeking, Knocking, Asking until I get an answer.
    At some point, I will receive from God an answer to my questions.

    Do you honestly think I don't and haven't asked the same questions you do now?

    I am doing my best to ask the questions, and push the envelope in Faith, until God gives me an answer.

    At some point He will, I believe He is leading me to it and in His time He will open it to me, until then I will keep Seeking.
     
  2. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You are not speaking to me personally, but to answer the question...........YES!

    My "Observation" over many years as a young man, was that the believers in the Pentecostal denomination can and will do what they WANT to do regardless of what the Scriptures say.

    As a 19 year old, I was told by the Pastor that "Speaking tongues" was required for me to be saved, and the church had a "Class" every Wensday to teach us how to do it.

    Why would a class have to be taught if the gift was a gift from God. If there any Scripture which shows that the 1st church and apostles attended a "Tongues speaking" class?????

    As for "healing". Do you actually believe that a man, not God, but a man can call down the Holy Spirit of God and demand from HIM that He perform as a man directs to heal certain people????

    Now, again........do YOU really accept that a man would rather be in a church or an auditorium healing people there, instead of the cancer unit of the local hospital healing children????

    Does that mean that the man can not do healings in a hospital?????
    Does it mean that the man can not heal those with cancer?????

    Or is the old stand by............"They do not have enough faith to believe"???

    How much faith then is required from a person with terminal cancer to be healed????

    These are NORMAL every day questions that I as a Pentecostal could not answer then and can not answer today, but YOU need to answer them if you are to be believed at all.

    Again, can you post the Scriptures that give us those directions and understanding.
     
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  3. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Please post the Bible Scriptures to support what you just said.
     
  4. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    That kind of thinking supports the Pentecostal practices which say that you can have what YOU want to have or do what YOU WANT to do.

    It is the old Burger King theology........."YOU can have it YOUY WAY".
     
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  5. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    My friend, for the second time, its not complaining, it's an observation. I follow the scriptures which teach us not to complain, and to be content in all situations.
     
  6. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Are you Pentecostal, do you believe in the Gifts of the Spirit?
     
  7. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    No amount of Bible verses would help you understand, you have already made up your mind on the subject.
     
  8. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    I am not sure about Major1 but I would be very interested in seeing the scripture references.
     
  9. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I’d like to see them too
     
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  10. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Me too.
     
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  11. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    1 Cor 12:11 "...All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."

    Paul goes on to say in 1 Cor 14
    v5 "...Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy..."
    v18 "...I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you...."
    v39 "...earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues."

    there is a feeling in the text that Paul has a greater "fluency" in the gift of tongues than those he is writing to, although he discourages unfruitful or selfish practices of the gifts there still is a general encouragement to grow in the gifts, to seek them and not to "forbid" their use.

    Everything is prefaced with "...as [the Spirit] wills" but the gifts of the Holy Spirit do seem to have a practiced ability according to how Paul describes them. Now the verses above are not to be taken out of context I merely post them to show insight into this thinking and I encourage anyone to read the context in its entirety rather than banking solely on a few verses.

    Paul also says v19 "... I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue." so although Paul encourages the gifts he addresses abuse especially with tongues and encourages balance. He is careful not to disqualify these acts which presents a paradoxical focus of "as the Spirit wills" with the over zealous Corinthians' will. Paul's not afraid to call people out and be blunt so it's unclear why he seems more softer in his approach here. All of this developes a case of balance between the will of the Spirit and the will of the individual.
     
  12. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I do not agree. IMO Paul was saying that tongues were ending and di not have "Fluency" in mind at all.

    Paul is the one that said tongues, knowledge and prophecy would CEASE. He said nothing at all about fluency.
     
  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Now does that mean you refuse to post those Scriptures OR rather......there are NO Scriptures which you can post.

    I am ptetty sure my friend that it is the later.
     
  14. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    No sir, I was able to escape from them.

    IF you are asking me if I believe in the "sign gifts" of tongues, healing, knowledge and drinking poison and surviving snake bites......NO.

    As the Scriptures clearly tell us in Mark 16 those gifts were given to the ELEVEN.

    Now if you are asking me about the Holy Ghost giving believers love, and compassion, peace and joy, and understanding then YES!

    As a Pentecostal, I realize how that cuts you. You simply can not believe that someone would say such things to you. Believe me my dear friend, you have been fed a pile of nonsense and it will not get any better for you until you grasp the Word of God just as it is written for you and me.

    1 Cor. 13:8.........
    "Tongues will CEASE, knowledge will END and prophesy will go away".

    Read the verses........there are NO hidden messages there as it is what God says it is....CEASE!
     
  15. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    My dear brother...........it is not "My" mind that anyone should be worried about.

    I believe most of the people here are concerned about YOU, not me.

    But, please........instead of posting things such as this one post, go ahead and post the Scriptures that support your opinion.

    You know the old saying they have in the Army......If you got time to lean you got time to clean!
     
  16. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    fluency is just a word to express a level or development of the gifts that Paul demonstrated when he contrasts his gifts with those of the corinthians (specifically tongues). Don't get locked in on the word as it's nothing special and you are free to use a different word to express the same thing. You may disagree but those are examples of verses that demonstrate this concept of development of the gifts. I'm not using any handbook here, I'm just reading the text and trying to understand some of the points that are naturally developed.
     
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  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    A highly recommended book Kingdom Triangle by JP Moreland addresses the cessationist-continuist debate.

    He encourages cessationists to be cautiously optimistic and continuists to call out the "silly stuff going on."
     
  18. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I understand and I am not locked in on a word.

    Well, wait a minute, I guess I am at that. Paul said "tongues will CEASE".

    Not maybe, or I think so but "WILL CEASE".

    That is what the text says my brother. Honestly I do not see a lot to be developed.
     
  19. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    I understand historically speaking the gifts are observed as dwindled out of practice and as a sum event is described as the ceasing of this passage (v8). This of course is the discussion of if this "ceasing" can be authentically linked to what this passage is referring to. The weight of the argument is based on the effect (the "ceasing") which is then used to prove the cause ("the perfect" coming of v10) and then used to speculate what the perfect actually is, be it the canon or the mature body of Christ/Church or another event analogous with this "ceasing" period which could be justly referred to as "the perfect"

    What I don't like is the speculation part and I think it requires us to revisit the text to understand want this "perfect" really is and if this "ceasing" is a genuine withholding by the Holy Spirit and fulfillment of this text or by neglect of the church. Because of the lack of support through the rest of scripture to me it is too irresponsible from an exegetical perspective as you would expect such a moment to be affirmed elsewhere in scripture so I cannot commit to such an interpretation and the conclusion is the gifts are still fully available as the Holy Spirit wills.
     
  20. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    The root of the problem has always been the correct understanding of the word "PERFECT" in verse 10.

    Over the years I have read material from each side of the problem. Some who want to "Continue" the gifts always say that the Perfect is the Coming of Jesus, some say that it is the 2nd Coming of Jesus. Some will insist that it is the Church. Some say that it is when we all get to heaven.

    The ones who are "Ceasesationist" almost universally say that the Perfect is the completed and canonized Bible.

    Without any doubt the Greek word used in verse 10 is the word "TELEIOS".
    That Greek word means in the NASB Lexicon......
    NASB © Greek Transliteration Strong's Definition Origin/

    "the perfect τέλειον teleion #5046 having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect/mature and sense it is in the "neuter" of Greek Grammar, neuter = completeness -- of full age.

    1). The Perfect is Jesus 1st Advent.
    Personally, I do not know how that definition would fit the God-Man Jesus. Since He was always with God and WAS God I for one am not able to comprehend how we can say that HE is the Perfect. Of course He is perfect but He did not become complete and neither did He mature and He certainly can never reach an END. He was, Is and always will be the God Man so I can not see how He could be the Perfect that Paul had in mind.

    2). The 2nd Coming of Christ.
    Then for the 2nd Coming of Christ. That is an "Event" and not anything that would mature or even be complete. Again, I can not see that being the Perfect in 1 Corth.
    IMHO and I am nothing but an old country boy and nothing more, for me then to say “that which is perfect is come” is a person, is to support strange and awkward grammar that I do not see in the Greek language here.

    Do you actually think that Jesus Christ would be called “that which is perfect?” It is quite clear to me that this phrase is referring to an inanimate object, not a person. The phrase “that which is perfect is come” of 1 Corinthians 10:13 does not IMHO refer to Jesus Christ or His return.

    3). The Church.
    Of all the definitions, this one would be the least acceptable to me. The church is made up of SINNERS.
    Saved sinners, yes but still sinners as a whole and very far from perfect.

    4). Christians going to Heaven.
    Maybe! But when we study the verse and the phrase in question we see that this verse says nothing about us going anywhere, but it does teach that something is coming to us. Something coming to us and us going somewhere are two completely different situations.

    5). The canonized Bible.
    “When that which is perfect is come” therefore seems to be a reference to when partial knowledge and partial prophesying are done away.

    Verses 9 and 10 again:...........
    “[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”


    IF we allow the Bible to interpret the Bible it seems to me that what we see it says is talking about the completion of the Bible’s canon of books, which was settled in God’s mind in the first century A.D. Once Paul wrote the epistle of 2 Timothy, the Bible was complete, and there was no more revelation needed from God (cf. Colossians 1:25 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

    Now I know that those who WANT to experience the sign gifts will not accept this view but to me this is the only view that the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10 allows. For God to have us grow up spiritually is something He wants now, not when we go to heaven (view #1) or when Jesus comes back (view #2): God wants mature Christians now (view #5).

    By the way, the word “perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is not sinless perfection, but the completion of God’s revelation (the Holy Bible) and the spiritual maturity it brings to those who read and believe it. Notice some examples of how the Scriptures use the term “perfect” in that sense:

    • Philippians 3:15: “Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.”
    • Colossians 1:28: “Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:”
    • Colossians 4:12: “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.”
    • 2 Timothy 3:16-17: “[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
    • Hebrews 5:14: “But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
    The bottom line to me is that there are no spiritual gifts operating today because we have the completed 66-book Holy Bible. If we are to people of faith, we must throw away our doctrinally-deficient hymns, we must discard our faulty theological systems, and we must break away from our pre-conceived ideas. We are to embrace the simple truths of the Bible. In the end, God’s Word—not theological systems, not Bible commentaries, not preachers or teachers—alone will matter.
     
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