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DamianWarS

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So, is that betting a dollar each way?
The OP is making an incorrect comparison with the same word in james just because they look the same as a way to build a case that it refers to the completion of the canon as well as rejects an eschatological event and this is being deceptive (if not deceptive than in ignorance)

It's not 50/50 but rather it as how most translations put it as "when the perfect comes"
not when the perfect law comes, or the perfect scripture, or the perfect thing; it is just "the perfect".

Could this refer to an event analogous with the competition of the canon? Yes grammatically it can but it can also grammatically agree with the perfect lasagna that I have yet to taste but since both these events cannot be defended through scripture they would be done irresponsibly. What it should agree with is an event established in scripture not one missing in scripture.

Traditionally it has been thought of when we die and see Jesus in heaven or the return of Christ (both well supported in scripture) and this idea that it points to sometime in the 4th century is a more recent phenomenon which cannot be defended in scripture. I personally feel it points to an eschatological event specifically our incorruptible bodies which Paul talks about in the same letter. "body" is also a neuter noun so if we demand that it must be a neuter noun then this still agrees with it (scripture, law, canon, church are not neuter) .but as I established already, we miss the point when all we do is fish for a word that magically fits. I don't demand it is our incorruptible bodies but I do take my queues from established concepts already presented in scripture and the more in context the better (like within the same letter)
 
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You mean like they did on the Day of Pentecost?

We also have to understand that the devout Jews from different nations (Acts of the Apostles 2:5) were able to hear and understand each other (Which is unlike the normal tongue giving).

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?" (Acts of the Apostles 2:7-8).​

It was only others who had mocked who did not understand (See: Acts of the Apostles 2:13). So this was not the same thing as the average every day tongue speaking with an interpreter that Paul was talking about in Corinthians. Acts 2 was a unique event.
 
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the word in context in 1 Cor 13:10 is teleion (τέλειον) it is a neuter adjective and the word in context in James 1:25 also is teleion (τέλειον) which appears exactly the same however it is a masculine adjective. Greek adjectives agree with their head noun and as you have determined "law" is the head noun in James 1:25. Law (nomon) is masculine thus all adjectives that describe it is also masculine.

So 1 Cor 13:10 must point to a neuter noun then right? not quite it is acting in the substantive function meaning it is nominal adjective and is functioning as a noun itself, we know this because 1) there is no head noun, 2) it is in the nominative case (James 1:25 is in the Accusative case) and 3) it is a neuter gender and in greek these 3 combinations overwhelming suggests it is functioning in the substantive function or as a nominatie adjective and this is further confirmed by the context, but it must be these 3 and if it wasn't neuter, or wasn't nominative then it would not function as a substantive (James 1:25 has none of the 3 as it is in the Accusative case, it has a head noun, and it is masculine).

So what does this mean? it means it is an abstract and it stands alone. This doesn't disqualify that it points to "the law" or completion of the canon but it also doesn't disqualify an eschatological event, that latter being an event confirmed through scripture but the former absent in scripture.

I do not mind the occasional Greek word being defined in a passage, as long as one believes that it does not conflict with what is written in our English Bibles.

I mean, please forgive me if I do not believe that you or anyone else on this planet is an expert in Biblical Greek. I say this because most who throw down the "original languages card" seek an entirely different meaning from our English Bibles (When our English Bibles were translated from Hebrew and Greek). Biblical Greek is a dead language and nobody speaks and writes Biblical Greek today. We cannot base our understanding solely on Biblical Greek. Most like yourself do not even speak and write Modern Greek. But even experts know that there are vast differences. You are only guessing based on what some scholar says and that scholar is also guessing. Lexicons were not written by Paul and they are not divinely inspired. In fact, Jesus said to beware of the scribes. The scribes are those who TRAN-scribed the Law or the Scriptures. So if you are going to make you case, please do so primarily with your English Bible. For when a person normally reads the Bible (as they would any other book), they do so in the English.
 
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We also have to understand that the devout Jews from different nations (Acts of the Apostles 2:5) were able to hear and understand each other (Which is unlike the normal tongue giving).

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?" (Acts of the Apostles 2:7-8).​

It was only others who had mocked who did not understand (See: Acts of the Apostles 2:13). So this was not the same thing as the average every day tongue speaking with an interpreter that Paul was talking about in Corinthians. Acts 2 was a unique event.

What you missed in the Acts 2 account is they heard supernaturally, not naturally. The only way that each could hear all of them speaking in their own individual language was by supernatural means, and the only gift that describes is interpretation of tongues.
 
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@Jason0047 In regards to your initial post:

While God can heal people directly Himself today, the gift of miracles is not given to any one believer that we know today. No Charismatic can always heal. Yet, the Bible says that they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts 5:12-16. "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people.....they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets.....and they were healed every one". (Acts 5:16)

One note about the laying on of hands: I don’t believe this is changed, albeit it also needs the cooperation / faith, etc of the person who is receiving the prayers. Scripture says that “they will be healed”. It doesn’t specify that it always will be physical healing though.

With that in mind, yes, God will follow through and heal us should we also accept it and follow God. Spiritual healing is the most important kind and we are promised that God will heal us spiritually. We aren’t promised that he will heal us physically. That said, God absolutely does heal people today. We don’t, however, put Him in a box and say “if we pray over you and anoint you, God must heal you physically”. We are to follow God’s Will, not our own. It is never so hard to say “Thy Will be done” when you are sick or in trials, but we are told that God will bless us through that (spiritually).

We are told that “whatever you do in Jesus’ name will be granted unto you [paraphrase due to time]. Culturally, what happened when a steward of a king, queen or emperor passed on commands to the people by visiting the towns, placing up notices, etc.? “In the name of the King, [insert proclamation here]!” It is talking about whatever is asked that is in God’s will be granted, not that our wishes will be done (like the modern understanding).

Spiritual healing is what we should seek first. When we have someone lay hands on us, we pray for healing - first for spiritual healing, and second for physical, but “Thy Will be done”. Someday, should we follow the course and continue to follow God until the end of our Earthly life, we will be physically healed in Heaven. Then, there will be no sickness, sorrow, sighing, etc. in the meantime, we need to trust in God, trust that He can heal us physically, but also trust that God works out al for the good of those who love Him - and ultimately wants us to follow Him and become Holy.

If our physical sickness helps us spiritually or helps others spiritually, then He may allow it due to His love for us...not because He wants us to be ill, but because He cares most about our salvation, about us becoming Holy and about us following Him.
 
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The gifting to heal has never been given to individuals. It is a gift given to the church, and that those who are called to the ministry have the use of the gift when it is needed.

No. The church is a collection, group, or body of believers. A group of believers are made up of individual believers or individuals. Gifts were given to specific individual believers according to the Holy Spirit.

Romans 12:6-8

6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness."

1. Prophecy.
2. Ministry.
3. Teaching.
4. Exhortation.
5. Giving.
6. Leadership.
7. Mercy.​

1 Corinthians 12:4, 1 Corinthians 12:8-11.

4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit."

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

1. Word of Wisdom.
2. Word of Knowledge.
Faith (Repeat).
3. Gift of Healing.
4. Working of Miracles.
Prophecy* (Repeat).
5. Discerning of Spirits.
6.
Tongues (The speaking of other known languages without study).
7.
Interpretation of Tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:28

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

1.
Gift of Apostleship.
Prophecy (Prophets) (Repeat).
2. Gift of Teaching.
Working of Miracles (Repeat).
Gift of Healing (Repeat).

3. Gift of Helping Others (KJV - Gift of Helps).
4. Gift of Administration or Organizing (KJV - Gift of Governments).

Tongues (Repeat).

Ephesians 4:7, Ephesians 4:11-12

7 "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ."

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"

Gift of Apostleship (Repeat).
Prophecy or Gift of Being a Prophet* (Repeat).

1. Gift of Evangelism (A winner of souls).
2. Gift of Pastorship.
Gift of Teaching (Repeat).

If a person professed to have a gift of healing, it is either a pretence or the gift comes from somewhere other than the Holy Spirit. No one has a special power to heal or to do miracles. Jesus is the only healer and worker of miracles.

Not true.

We see the Lord work miracles through Peter to heal others:

6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God." (Acts of the Apostles 3:6-8).

15 "they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one." (Acts of the Apostles 5:15-16).

Also, Paul was able to heal by the power of God:

Acts of the Apostles 19:11-12 says,
11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Acts of the Apostles 28:8-9 says,
8 "And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:"

You said:
In the church, the elders are to pray the prayer of faith, and it is the Lord who raises the sick person up. The laying on of believers' hands is an act of faith, but the power to heal comes from the Lord and not from the person laying on his or her hands.

Okay. First, I never said that a person has this power on their own that is a power separate from God. What Christian even believes that way? Second, I never said anything about the laying on of hands and how it was the sole exclusive means to heal without any faith. Nowhere did I even mention the laying on of hands. So you cannot assume that I am claiming that there is no faith involved in such things. You are accusing me of something that I do not believe without any evidence. Three, as I pointed out in my OP (so as to address those who think God heals on demand): Well, just because they laid their hands on a person and believed by faith that he would be healed, it does not mean God would heal them 100% of the time. It is ultimately up to God to decide who is healed and not healed. There are many groups who claim to heal just by touching them on the head and pushing them back.

Nowhere in the New Testament does it say that a particular individual has a gift of healing. When 1 Corinthians 12 speaks of the gifts of healing, it says they are gifts given for the building up and strengthening of the church.

No. 1 Corinthians 12:9 talks about the gifts of healing as a specific individual gift.

4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit."

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

Notice the words... one, and another repeated through out the passage. This is talking about individual believers here. The words "one" and "another" is not referring to a group of believers but individual believers.

When Jesus healed people it was in the context of Him having compassion on sick folk. It was not to prove anything nor was it meant as a sign for anything. It was just because the heart of Jesus went out to sick people and He used the power of the Holy Spirit to heal them. Jesus was just being the Person He is, and He is just the same today, and He will always heal the sick through the faith of compassionate gospel workers.

While everything God does is out of His love, the Bible actually tells us that the primary reason why God gave individual believers specific gifts within the early church was to confirm the Word.

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen." (Mark 16:20).

3 "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?" (Hebrews 2:3-4).

Tongues were for a sign that the Jews looked for. 1 Corinthians 1:22 says, “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:” But Jesus says, “ An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;” (Matthew 12:39). Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:22). "In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), saith the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21. Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore. 1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand."

The three greatest prophets and miracle workers in the Bible are Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. We see that the miracles that they performed were a way to authenticate them as a messenger from GOD and the Word of God that they provided (that would be immortalized into Scripture). We notice that after each of these prophets, there was a time of silence where no miracles were done. Just like with the prophets Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, miracles authenticated the apostles' message as from God.
 
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Timothy416

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The thing that cessationists forget is that Jesus is the same compassionate Person that He has always been. The supernatural declined by around the 4th Century because the church forgot that God is love. It stopped showing the love and compassion of God and replaced it with ceremony and ritual.

Cessationists try to tell us that Jesus meant for the supernatural gifts to cease. But this means that He meant for His love and compassion for the church and the sick and suffering in to cease and to be replaced by religious "Scriptural" words. Yes, even our precious Bible, the Word of God, can be turned into just a set of religious principles and ideals instead of the living Word that shows how good God is, how much He loves us, and passionately desires to show His compassion on all those who are sick and suffering.

The trouble is that it is the church itself that has blocked His love and compassion and has frustrated the grace of God for so many people. It it has used the words judgment and condemnation instead of grace and power. If the church concentrated on grace and power as its guiding principles, we would see a lot more people saved and healed.

Yet there are millions of believers who are building their churches and ministries on grace and power instead of judgment and condemnation, and they are the churches that are saving souls and healing the sick, while the others that are built on judgment and condemnation are declining and dying.

All cessationists can offer is religiousity and churchianity, because they have lost the sense of grace, love and compassion which comes from the heart of God. They can cobble together Scriptures until the cows come home, but there is no grace, compassion or love for needy souls in what they try to promulgate.
Only a non cessationist could write the above message, so much truth in it. God bless
 
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What you missed in the Acts 2 account is they heard supernaturally, not naturally. The only way that each could hear all of them speaking in their own individual language was by supernatural means, and the only gift that describes is interpretation of tongues.

So they were not speaking in tongues. This does not help to prove your case that a person can speak with tongues without an interpreter.
 
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@Jason0047 In regards to your initial post:

One note about the laying on of hands: I don’t believe this is changed, albeit it also needs the cooperation / faith, etc of the person who is receiving the prayers. Scripture says that “they will be healed”. It doesn’t specify that it always will be physical healing though.

With that in mind, yes, God will follow through and heal us should we also accept it and follow God. Spiritual healing is the most important kind and we are promised that God will heal us spiritually. We aren’t promised that he will heal us physically. That said, God absolutely does heal people today. We don’t, however, put Him in a box and say “if we pray over you and anoint you, God must heal you physically”. We are to follow God’s Will, not our own. It is never so hard to say “Thy Will be done” when you are sick or in trials, but we are told that God will bless us through that (spiritually).

We are told that “whatever you do in Jesus’ name will be granted unto you [paraphrase due to time]. Culturally, what happened when a steward of a king, queen or emperor passed on commands to the people by visiting the towns, placing up notices, etc.? “In the name of the King, [insert proclamation here]!” It is talking about whatever is asked that is in God’s will be granted, not that our wishes will be done (like the modern understanding).

Spiritual healing is what we should seek first. When we have someone lay hands on us, we pray for healing - first for spiritual healing, and second for physical, but “Thy Will be done”. Someday, should we follow the course and continue to follow God until the end of our Earthly life, we will be physically healed in Heaven. Then, there will be no sickness, sorrow, sighing, etc. in the meantime, we need to trust in God, trust that He can heal us physically, but also trust that God works out al for the good of those who love Him - and ultimately wants us to follow Him and become Holy.

If our physical sickness helps us spiritually or helps others spiritually, then He may allow it due to His love for us...not because He wants us to be ill, but because He cares most about our salvation, about us becoming Holy and about us following Him.

I believe James 5:14-16 applies today. In this case, it does not mention the laying on of hands but praying over a person and anointing them with oil. I believe the laying on of hands to heal in Mark 16:17-18 as in reference to signs done by the early church and not the body of believers today. The signs were for the Jews (by which they looked for - See 1 Corinthians 1:22) at that time so they could believe and it was to confirm the Word (See Mark 16:20).
 
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1stcenturylady

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So they were not speaking in tongues. This does not help to prove your case that a person can speak with tongues without an interpreter.

Of course they were speaking in tongues, and the gift of interpretation of tongues was manifested as well in the devout Jews.
 
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Of course they were speaking in tongues, and the gift of interpretation of tongues was manifested as well in the devout Jews.

But nowhere does Paul mention how a person can have both the gift of tongues and the gift of being an interpreter of tongues. This was a unique event. An interpreter was needed in regular tongue giving in the early church because otherwise nobody would understand the person speaking in tongues. Paul made it clear that there needs to be an interpreter. If not, then they are to keep silent. Seeing at Pentecost, the devout Jews understood each other, this was a unique event.
 
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1stcenturylady

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But nowhere does Paul mention how a person can have both the gift of tongues and the gift of being an interpreter of tongues. This was a unique event. An interpreter was needed in regular tongue giving in the early church because otherwise nobody would understand the person speaking in tongues. Paul made it clear that there needs to be an interpreter. If not, then they are to keep silent. Seeing at Pentecost, the devout Jews understood each other, this was a unique event.

Read 1 Corinthians 14 again. Paul told those who could speak in tongues to also pray that they may interpret. Jason, you have some erroneous ideas about a subject you know nothing about.
 
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Read 1 Corinthians 14 again. Paul told those who could speak in tongues to also pray that they may interpret. Jason, you have some erroneous ideas about a subject you know nothing about.

No. Paul's point was not to pray in an unknown tongue because he says in verse 15 that he will pray with the spirit and he will pray with the understanding also.

13 "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." (1 Corinthians 14:13-15).​

Paul criticizes the believer who prays in an unknown tongue in verse 14. He says that their understanding is unfruitful. This is why he encourages us to pray with the understanding also (According to verse 15).

"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." (1 Corinthians 14:19).
 
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DamianWarS

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I do not mind the occasional Greek word being defined in a passage, as long as one believes that it does not conflict with what is written in our English Bibles.

I mean, please forgive me if I do not believe that you or anyone else on this planet is an expert in Biblical Greek. I say this because most who throw down the "original languages card" seek an entirely different meaning from our English Bibles (When our English Bibles were translated from Hebrew and Greek). Biblical Greek is a dead language and nobody speaks and writes Biblical Greek today. We cannot base our understanding on Biblical Greek using Modern Greek. Most like yourself do not even speak and write Modern Greek. But even experts know that there are vast differences. You are only guessing based on what some scholar says and that scholar is also guessing. Lexicons were not written by Paul and they are not divinely inspired. In fact, Jesus said to beware of the scribes. The scribes are those who TRAN-scribed the Law or the Scriptures. So if you are going to make you case, please do so primarily with your English Bible. For when a person normally reads the Bible (as they would any other book), they do so in the English.

Your argument is a little contradictory because since we trust the words or our translations then we must concede that someone else on this planet knows how to translate them and can be called an expert. I, myself, am not an expert on biblical greek but I do study what experts say, if I can use that term. I too am wary of people who make their own translations claiming their words are better than what it seems an overwhelming majority of scholars/translators agree with.

Let's look at 5 popular translations and the English agrees with what I am saying for example
  • NIV but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
  • NLT But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless.
  • ESV but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
  • NASB but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
  • KJV But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
I could be far more exhaustive of course but there is no need and this is a good representation. I understand also there is some argument with translating the word to perfect or complete (or the like) but of course if we are to be consistent with the point you are making we cannot make that argument because neither one of us are experts in biblical greek. Keeping in spirit of your point we need to rely on English translations to make our arguments.

The translations I show do not say "perfect/complete thing", "perfect/complete law", "perfect/complete scripture", "perfect/complete church" etc... they just leave the word as "perfect/complete" . The NIV says "completeness" and the NLT says "perfection". I like both words and I really appreciate the effort these translations put to really make these abstract and to me it really shows intentionality and careful thought; perfect/complete are already abtrasts but they go the next step and nominalize them. the thing with abstracts is they act alone and completeness/perfection really captures this because we are not searching for another word to fill in the blank or just doing word searches to find what other passages are using and then add to the translation.

I agree with these english translation and my greek study is to understand the words they use not to disagree with them or add to them. I wouldn't touch the translations and I think saying "when the perfect comes" or "when the complete comes" confirms they are abstract and functioning as abstract nominative adjectives (in English) . So what is it pointing to? Well, because of the ambiguity inherent in abstracts it would be responsible to interpret this using already established events in scripture that are consistent with the context of the passage (in english). The completion of the canon is not an event commented on in the bible so I don't feel it very responsible to defend that position. To start, the original audience would never come to that conclusion and it would be extremely cryptic of Paul and irresponsible for him to say something like this without it ever being spoken of or expanded upon again.
 
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At Pentecost, I believe they were speaking in either a Heavenly language or the one world language that existed prior to the confusion of the languages at the tower of Babel. For if a guy was speaking in his own language, they would simply say that he was speaking in his own tongue. But if they thought they were all drunk, it was because they were all speaking in a language that did not recognize.

In 1 Corinthians 14: I believe "Tongues" is the speaking of actual real languages that people are already aware of. This is why it was a miracle to those who listened. They could hear that this was a specific language that they heard before, and yet the interpreter was able to give the meaning without any special training or knowledge in knowing that language.
 
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No. Paul's point was not to pray in an unknown tongue because he says in verse 15 that he will pray with the spirit and he will pray with the understanding also.

13 "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." (1 Corinthians 14:13-15).​

Paul criticizes the believer who prays in an unknown tongue in verse 14. He says that their understanding is unfruitful. This is why he encourages us to pray with the understanding also (According to verse 15).

"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." (1 Corinthians 14:19).

See what I mean? You know nothing about this subject. Even when you read it in black and white and red.
 
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Your argument is a little contradictory because since we trust the words or our translations then we must concede that someone else on this planet knows how to translate them and can be called an expert. I, myself, am not an expert on biblical greek but I do study what experts say, if I can use that term. I too am wary of people who make their own translations claiming their words are better than what it seems an overwhelming majority of scholars/translators agree with.

Let's look at 5 popular translations and the English agrees with what I am saying for example
  • NIV but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
  • NLT But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless.
  • ESV but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
  • NASB but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
  • KJV But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
I could be far more exhaustive of course but there is no need and this is a good representation. I understand also there is some argument with translating the word to perfect or complete (or the like) but of course if we are to be consistent with the point you are making we cannot make that argument because neither one of us are experts in biblical greek. Keeping in spirit of your point we need to rely on English translations to make our arguments.

The translations I show do not say "perfect/complete thing", "perfect/complete law", "perfect/complete scripture", "perfect/complete church" etc... they just leave the word as "perfect/complete" . The NIV says "completeness" and the NLT says "perfection". I like both words and I really appreciate the effort these translations put to really make these abstract and to me it really shows intentionality and careful thought; perfect/complete are already abtrasts but they go the next step and nominalize them. the thing with abstracts is they act alone and completeness/perfection really captures this because we are not searching for another word to fill in the blank or just doing word searches to find what other passages are using and then add to the translation.

I agree with these english translation and my greek study is to understand the words they use not to disagree with them or add to them. I wouldn't touch the translations and I think saying "when the perfect comes" or "when the complete comes" confirms they are abstract and functioning as abstract nominative adjectives (in English) . So what is it pointing to? Well, because of the ambiguity inherent in abstracts it would be responsible to interpret this using already established events in scripture that are consistent with the context of the passage (in english). The completion of the canon is not an event commented on in the bible so I don't feel it very responsible to defend that position. To start, the original audience would never come to that conclusion and it would be extremely cryptic of Paul and irresponsible for him to say something like this without it ever being spoken of or expanded upon again.

Surely you do not always agree with Modern Translations. Do you always agree with the New Living Translation in what it says? The point here is that we have to look at the context and we have to look at cross references that say a similar thing. James 1 points us to what "perfect" is. It also points us to "looking at a glass/mirror," too. James 1 says the perfect is the "Perfect Law of Liberty." It also says the "glass/mirror" is the communicated Word of God. We are to conform to the image of Christ (face to face - 1 Corinthians 13) by looking in the mirror/Bible by obeying His commands. We see Christ's reflection in the Bible when we compare it our lives. When Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 14, the perfect (the Law of Liberty) had not yet been completed. The Perfect Law of Liberty was completed with the close of Revelation. Paul says when that "perfect" (i.e. the Perfect Law of Liberty) has come, things like tongues will cease, etc.
 
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Your argument is a little contradictory because since we trust the words or our translations then we must concede that someone else on this planet knows how to translate them and can be called an expert. I, myself, am not an expert on biblical greek but I do study what experts say, if I can use that term. I too am wary of people who make their own translations claiming their words are better than what it seems an overwhelming majority of scholars/translators agree with.

Let's look at 5 popular translations and the English agrees with what I am saying for example
  • NIV but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
  • NLT But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless.
  • ESV but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
  • NASB but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
  • KJV But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
I could be far more exhaustive of course but there is no need and this is a good representation. I understand also there is some argument with translating the word to perfect or complete (or the like) but of course if we are to be consistent with the point you are making we cannot make that argument because neither one of us are experts in biblical greek. Keeping in spirit of your point we need to rely on English translations to make our arguments.

The translations I show do not say "perfect/complete thing", "perfect/complete law", "perfect/complete scripture", "perfect/complete church" etc... they just leave the word as "perfect/complete" . The NIV says "completeness" and the NLT says "perfection". I like both words and I really appreciate the effort these translations put to really make these abstract and to me it really shows intentionality and careful thought; perfect/complete are already abtrasts but they go the next step and nominalize them. the thing with abstracts is they act alone and completeness/perfection really captures this because we are not searching for another word to fill in the blank or just doing word searches to find what other passages are using and then add to the translation.

I agree with these english translation and my greek study is to understand the words they use not to disagree with them or add to them. I wouldn't touch the translations and I think saying "when the perfect comes" or "when the complete comes" confirms they are abstract and functioning as abstract nominative adjectives (in English) . So what is it pointing to? Well, because of the ambiguity inherent in abstracts it would be responsible to interpret this using already established events in scripture that are consistent with the context of the passage (in english). The completion of the canon is not an event commented on in the bible so I don't feel it very responsible to defend that position. To start, the original audience would never come to that conclusion and it would be extremely cryptic of Paul and irresponsible for him to say something like this without it ever being spoken of or expanded upon again.

We will see our image conform or change to the image of Christ in light of the "Bible / Glass / Mirror" by our obedience to Jesus's commands (Note: See the pictures below within this post). As we obey His Word, we conform more to the likeness of Christ and when we look in the mirror of God's Word (the Bible), we see the image of Christ in the reflection and not our old reflection by the fact that we are conforming to that "perfect Word" that He has given us. So yes. We do see Christ in the mirror "face to face" but it is only by our conforming to Christ by our obedience to Him. The focus of 1 Corinthians 13 is love. Loving as Christ loved. As a whole: 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 13, 1 Corinthians 14 are dealing with gifts. Although these gifts were necessary at one time (to confirm the Word of the New Covenant and the early church), these gifts have ceased, and they are no longer needed (Because that which is "perfect" has come, i.e. the Bible) whereby we can be "perfect" or be a "mature man" by obeying God's Word by faith (and not by sight). For 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work.

"And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord..." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (AMPC).

"As all of us reflect the glory of the Lord with unveiled faces, we are becoming more like him with ever-increasing glory by the Lord’s Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (ISV).

"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (John 6:40).

2 "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure."
(1 John 3:2-3).

full


full


To all:

full


"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2).

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Gifts are something people can see. But the Word of God (the Bible) is a faith thing.

Jesus said,
"...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).

This would be us today with the Bible.
We don't need spiritual gifts to see in order to believe.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1).


Side Note:

The second image (above) that has a picture of Christ is not what Jesus obviously looks like. I only posted this image for illustrative purposes only. Jesus is not white or European and He more than likely did not have long hair, either.
 
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See what I mean? You know nothing about this subject. Even when you read it in black and white and red.

Uh, you are not explaining the points I made with Scripture that refute your false thinking here.
 
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I believe James 5:14-16 applies today. In this case, it does not mention the laying on of hands but praying over a person and anointing them with oil. I believe the laying on of hands to heal in Mark 16:17-18 as in reference to signs done by the early church and not the body of believers today. The signs were for the Jews (by which they looked for - See 1 Corinthians 1:22) at that time so they could believe and it was to confirm the Word (See Mark 16:20).
Ah, slip of the mind due to exhaustion :) I was referencing James. I have heard some say that passage in James is no longer applicable to today, which I disagree with.
 
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